# MueveloNYC's NYC Gun FAQ (Laws and Procedures)

[MueveloNYC]

Ok everyone. I got permission from HKPro to build a gun FAQ specifically for NYC since this is the most difficult municipality to own a gun in (other than an outright ban) due to the Sullivan Act (http://www.gunlawnews.org/sullivan.html). This FAQ is designed to give a basic overview of procedures and the law, but in no way do we guarantee the accuracy or your results, especially since majority of cases are completely subjective to NYPD, as they have final say on who gets a gun and have the ability to deny for any reason. This is only a guideline from past experiences from myself, and others here on HKPro who live in NYC. And if you're not an owner yet, hopefully this info will be a good starting point for you on your path to owning an HK. :)

Disclaimer: Neither myself nor HKPro.com take any responsibility for your actions direct/indirect/consequential/inconsequential that may result from the information below. The information is presented as-is as a starting point for your own research. This is not legal advice. We do not guarantee its accuracy in any way. Many of these laws are convoluted, vague, and ambiguous, so there is room for interpretation. It is urged that you err on the side of caution, as it's better to be more cautious than lean toward losing your license and becoming a felon (illegal posession, even though you have a license - yes there are situations were you can illegally posess your licensed and registered firearm). Whenever in doubt, please consult the local police and if possible get it in writing. Also if something is in need of updating or something to add, please send me a PM

Notice to all out of state folks traveling through NY State with a firearm: NY State is the only state in the nation that requires the gun owner to have a license of some kind from the state they are from when transporting a gun through the state under the federal guidelines under "safe transport." In states that don't have permits to own, such as PA, to "safe transport" a firearm through the state or even into the state requires a permit of some kind, even if that's a Concealed Carry (CCW) license from your state. The NRA-ILA has extremely stressed this point on their website when traveling through NY State (especially NYC), as not only can your firearms be impounded, but you could also face jail time. Such is the case also when transporting firearms and guns through the NYC airports (JFK and LaGuardia) and other NY State airports, even if you have permission/clearance from your airline.

The NYSRPA made comments on this issue: http://www.nysrpa.org/airportwarning.htm

DOJ's Response on Firearms in Airports in NYC
http://handgunlaw.us/documents/doj_doc_nyc_air.pdf

WARNING!: (updated 2/25/09)
Please take a look at this post here (http://www.hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=78835&page=28). A recent court ruling in the appellate court ruled that taking your pistol anywhere outside of NYC or the state for that matter, even with valid licenses for other states will result in revocation of your pistol license. Previous info posted below.

There was an arrest that resulted in 2007 (as posted on packing.org) of someone transporting through the airport but did not have a valid NY State or NYC pistol license. The NYSRPA have stated that best practice is to only travel with a firearm through NYC airports only if you are a NYC/NY State resident with a valid NYC or NY State license.

Quote from NYSRPA:

Bottom line, UNLESS you are in possession of a VALID New York pistol license, DO NOT bring a handgun in your luggage to the airport, you will be charged.

Additionally note: While airlines say you can have ammo and gun stored in the same container, NY State law states you cannot. The gun must be trigger locked, unloaded, locked in a case. Ammunition must be in a separate container. None of these can be on carry on luggage, only checked in, and must be declared and processed before your flight. (Delta and Continental have forms on their website to declare this up front. Fill this out and clear your firearms before your date of travel and confirm with the carrier in writing up front to speed up this process.)

Note: unloaded firearm may still be classified as loaded in NYC: http://www.newyorkcriminalattorneyblog.com/2009/03/new_york_gun_laws_when_your_un.html

NYC - NYPD Gun Licensing Info:
Pistol License Application (finally digital form!):
http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/permits/handgun_licensing_application.shtml
Pistol types information:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/permits/handgun_licensing_information.shtml
Rifle & Shotgun (different license issued by Kew Gardens in Queens!):
http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/permits/rifle_licensing_information.shtml

NYPD Gun FAQ:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/permits/gun_licensing_faq.shtml

NYC Gun laws:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloads/pdf/permits/title38-rcny.pdf

NRA-ILA's NY City Law Quick Guide:
http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/NYCCL.pdf
http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/NYSL.pdf (New York State - yes they differ!)

NYSRPA NY State Gun Laws Guide:
http://www.nysrpa.org/nygunlaws.htm

LCAV's Summary of NY State Gun laws:
http://lcav.org/states/newyork.asp

Sites

New York Legal Publishing Corporation - Public Service Portal (http://24.97.137.100/nyc/)
New York State Legislature - Laws (http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/menugetf.cgi?COMMONQUERY=LAWS)

Laws

City - New York City

New York City - Rules - Title 38: Police Department (http://24.97.137.100/nyc/RCNY/Title38_1-01.asp)

Chapter 1: Dealers In Rifles and Shotguns (http://24.97.137.100/nyc/rcny/Title38_1-01.asp)
Chapter 2: Organizations Possessing Rifles and Shotguns (http://24.97.137.100/nyc/rcny/Title38_2-01.asp)
Chapter 3: Rifle/shotgun Permits (http://24.97.137.100/nyc/rcny/Title38_3-01.asp)
Chapter 4: Gunsmiths and Dealers in Firearms (http://24.97.137.100/nyc/rcny/Title38_4-01.asp)
Chapter 5: Handgun Licenses (http://24.97.137.100/nyc/rcny/Title38_5-01.asp)
Chapter 16: Transport Or Delivery of Weapons (http://24.97.137.100/nyc/rcny/Title38_16-01.asp)
Chapter 17: Prohibited Assault Weapons (http://24.97.137.100/nyc/rcny/Title38_17-01.asp)


New York City - Administrative Code - Title 10 - Chapter 1 - Section 31: Firearms (http://24.97.137.100/nyc/AdCode/Title10_10-131.asp)

New York City - Administrative Code - Title 10 - Chapter 3: Firearms (http://24.97.137.100/nyc/AdCode/Title10_10-301.asp)

State - New York

New York State - Consolidated Laws - Penal Law, Part 3, Title P (Chapter 40) - Article 265 - Firearms And Other Dangerous Weapons (http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/menugetf.cgi?COMMONQUERY=LAWS) (Link not direct, follow full name to reach section)

New York State - Consolidated Laws - Penal Law, Part 4, Title W (Chapter 40) - Article 400 - Licensing And Other Provisions Relating To Firearms (http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/menugetf.cgi?COMMONQUERY=LAWS) (Link not direct, follow full name to reach section)

Federal - United States

United States Code - Title 18 (Crimes And Criminal Procedure) - Part 1 (Crimes) - Chapter 44: Firearms (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sup_01_18_10_I_20_44.html)

United States Code - Title 26 (Internal Revenue Code) - Subtitle E (Alcohol, Tobacco, and Certain Other Excise Taxes) - Chapter 53: Machine Guns, Destructive Devices, and Certain Other Firearms (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/26/stEch53.html)

FAQ:

I'm visiting NYC, can I shoot a friend's pistol or rent one?
No, you need to have a valid NYC pistol license to even touch a pistol. However, you can shoot .22lr rifle or 9mm rifles without a license. There is only one range in Manhattan that has rentals, The West Side Pistol & Rifle Range: www.westsidepistolrange.com

I have a pistol permit from NY State, but not New York City (5 Boroughs). Can I still shoot a pistol in New York City?
No. New York City does not honor NY State Licenses.

What if I have a valid NY State CCW license, then can I carry or shoot a pistol in New York City?
No. NYPD is very particular on this. Only New York City permits and CCW licenses are valid in NYC's 5 boroughs. Anything issued outside NYC by NY State is NOT valid in NYC. There have been warnings posted that NYPD will revoke your license, confiscate your guns, as well as possible 3 years jail time for illegal possession of a firearm in New York City.

Also note NYC pistol licenses are NOT valid outside of NYC. Many organizations highly recommend that NYC license holders get the Hunting Authorization card (green card) that lets you take your firearm outside of the city to authorized ranges and hunting grounds in NY State. The green card is imprinted and even states that the premise license is now valid for NY State and you are allowed to transport it out of NY City. Request it from 1PP when you get your permit.

However, if you leave the state to a state you can shoot in (ie: PA) via "safe transport" method (uninterrupted travel) then you should be fine. As an extra precaution, many have encouraged that NYC gun owners to additionally get non-resident CCW license that's honored in multiple states which will allow you to posses that firearm in that state. The most popular are Florida and Utah which are good for 28 states (except a few states such as Michigan which requires resident only). CT also offers non-resident CCW permits if you have a valid CCW permit from another state.

[MueveloNYC]

What is the process of getting a handgun license in NYC?
1. Download and fill out the application (links and NYPD licensing info is listed at the top of this page)
2. Get the necessary reference forms (these people have to know you for 7+ years and have it notarized, stating they knew you for 7+ years)
EDIT: User "Brooklyn" noticed that this is no longer documented on the PDF version of the app. After calling NYPD, they confirmed you need 3 references from people who know you for 2 years or more as explained by his post here (http://hkpro.com/forum/showpost.php?p=694024&postcount=201)

notarizations, photos, utility bill, passport, etc. required for the full app, and get the 2 money orders (NOTE: NYPD now takes credit cards as of Nov. 2008!) for the application $340 and fingerprint fee which is roughly $95. Consult the NYPD link for the exact fees. NOTE: If you have roomates or are married/living with an SO, they have to have a signed affidavit notarized stating that "I have no objection with <name here> owning a firearm in our dwelling" or something of that nature. This is important that is says that there is "no objection" and a reference to a gun in your dwelling, home, apartment, residence, etc. If these words do not appear, your license can be delayed/denied (same goes for the character references in declaring time length of the relationship).
3. Go to 1 Police Plaza (1PP) and submit the app in person. This involves live fingerprinting.
4. Rougly 6 months later you'll be called back to 1PP for an in person interview, and will be live fingerprinted again.
5. A few months later you'll get a letter notifiying you of your acceptance/denial
6. Go back to 1PP and pick up a purchase order for your first firearm
7. Purchase your firearm from an authorized FFL within 60 days. Make sure you fill out the BATFE form and get a receipt and have the FFL fill out the purchase order
8. Bring the receipt, purchase order, and your firearm (unloaded, trigger locked, no mag in gun, no ammo on your person, in a locked case) to 1PP. Let the checkpoint know you are carrying a firearm (and let them know it's unloaded and double locked, no ammo). Then go for your gun inspection.
9. You will be inspected, and the serial # recorded. They will then take your picture, put the gun's make, caliber and serial # on the gun license and hand it to you. Make sure you verify that the serial # is correct! If your gun doesn't match the serial # even if it's a typo, you can be arrested!
10. The process is fairly variable. Anywhere from 6 months to 18 months.

Keep in mind that gun licenses in NYC are much like a lease. Technically, you do not own your guns. NYPD does. If for any reason NYPD finds reason to rescind your license (or you let it lapse), they take possession of all your firearms, even if you rightfully paid for them. Keep this in mind.

Note: The premise license is only valid in the NYC 5 boroughs for home and range use only. It's not valid for NY State. Request a hunting endorsement card when you get your permit. It's a green card that's imprinted with a seal. On it it says, the person name on the card with a valid premise license is now legally allowed to transport his firearm throughout NY State.

This is the text on this card:

Police Department - City of N.Y.
Hunting Authorization

This amendment to the Premise pistol license issue to the above licensee, provides for the transport of the firearm(s) indicated on said license, within New York State while unloaded and in a locked container. It shall further authorize the carry of a loaded firearm on the person, while afield, actively engaged in such lawful hunting as is authorized pursuant to the New York State Fish and Wildlife Law.

Note the hours of operation: (Mon - Fri)
Licensing: 9AM-4PM (note that people have reported to get there before 2PM since after 2PM will be too late to process you)
Purchase Order pick up: 9AM - noon
Gun inspection: noon-2PM
Fingerprinting: 9AM-3PM

Process for buying a new gun:
1. Call up NYPD's licensing division, and request a purchase order form
2. You'll receive it in the mail in about a week. Fill out the gun make, model, caliber, and barrel length, reason for purchase, and your handgun license info. Mail it back.
3. In about 6-9 weeks, you'll get a form in the mail telling you to come to 1PP to pick up your purchase order between 9AM-noon.
4. Take your purchase order to a gun dealer/FFL and buy a gun in 60 days. Make sure they fill out the purchase order, BATFE forms, and give you a receipt!
5. Take the purchase order filled out with the receipt, and within 72 hours of buying the firearm, you HAVE to go to 1PP for gun inspection (failure to do so within 72 hours can result in the revocation of your license and firearms). Gun inspections are only from Noon until 2PM, M-F. Make sure the gun is trigger locked, unloaded, no mag in the gun, in a locked case, and bring no ammo.

Procedure for selling a firearm:
Selling to a NY/NYC FFL:
1. Call 1PP and notify your intent of sale and to whom
2. Sell to the FFL, and take your bill of sale and to go 1PP to get the gun removed from your license that day (do not take your time on this!)
Selling privately to another NYC gun license owner:
1. Both buyer/seller call 1PP to notify intent of purchase/sale
2. Make sure the other license owner has obtained the purchase order form from NYPD (if they haven't, it's a 6-9 week process!)
3. Photocopy the back and front of each others pistol license (so you have a copy of the other person's ID when submitting to NYPD)
4. Prepare a bill of sale, notarized, with both your and the buyers signatures, name and address as they appear on your license on this billl of sale, with the gun, make, model, caliber, barrel length (make it closely as the original bill of sale's info). Make sure both the buyer/seller has this information.
5. On the same day, both parties go to 1PP with the photocopied ID and bill of sale to have their pistol licenses updated.

Because all guns are registered in NYC you simply cannot mail your firearm to an out of state FFL. Also you must receive your gun from a NY FFL if purchased out of state.
Lookup FFL's Validity here: https://www.atfonline.gov/fflezcheck

What about Rifle licenses?
1. Fill out the rifle application at the bottom of the page HERE (http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/permits/rifle_licensing_information.shtml)
2. Even if you are a pistol license holder, you will have to fill out everything and get re-fingerprinted
3. Go to the Kew Gardens location and submit the app in person
4. 3-6 months you will get notice to pick up your license, go pick it up in person (this is also valid for NY State as outside of NYC doesn't require a license for long barrels, but requires registration).
5. Rifles and other long barrels also need to be registered, but with the Kew Gardens office, not 1PP. They will give you registration forms when you get your license. Mail this (make sure you retain your copy of this form) with a copy of your bill of sale with a self-addressed return envelope to:
Rifle/Shotgun Section
License Division
NYC Police Dept.
120-55 Queens Blvd.
Kew Gardens, NY 11424

Hunters Education Card:
NY and almost all states in the country require a card that proves that you took a hunter's education class. Info on hunters education class are on NY's Dept. of Environmental Conservation here:
http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/7860.html
Check out the class links on that site and take a class... why? Here's WHY!

All courses are free. New York's Sportsman Education Programs are supported in part by Federal Aid in Wildlife Restoration, funded by your purchases of hunting equipment. Additional funding comes from sales of hunting and trapping licenses. Hunters and trappers pay for Sportsman Education and wildlife conservation.

What about banned rifles/shotguns that are considered assault weapons?
There's a 2 criteria list that would get it banned. On the rifle/shotgun licenses are a few examples. But NYPD has a phone # to direct questions if you want to know a particular gun is banned: (718) 520-9300, this is the phone # listed on the Shotgun/Rifle application.

The shotgun rule basically mirrors 922R code: (although NYC adds a few more restrictions)
http://www.access.gpo.gov/uscode/title18/parti_chapter44_.html

Summary here:
http://home.comcast.net/~navy87guy/home/922r.html

Can I have rifles/shotguns outside of NYC in my vacation home outside of the 5-boroughs but within NY State?
If you go to the Rifle section of NYPD's website, then click the PDF for the application: http://home2.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/permits/rifle_licensing_information.shtml

In that PDF under "Registering Rifles and Shotguns" it says:


(f) If the permit holder has a gun stored in a residence outside of New York City and wishes
to register it in New York City, he or she must submit a notarized letter listing the make,
model and serial number of the gun and the address where it was stored. The letter must
also indicate how the firearm was originally obtained. The permit holder must also
complete a registration form and submit it.

While it's not explicit, this could be interpreted as yes it is possible, as NY State does not require a license nor registration, only NYC 5 boroughs does. NOTE: Handguns/pistols must stay at your residence as they are registered there. If your rifle/shotgun is registered to your NYC residence, it must be stored there as well.

[MueveloNYC]

What are NY's Laws on use of Deadly Force?
Note: This is a very gray area of the law - always use caution and only resort to deadly force if your life is in immediate jeopardy.

N.Y. Penal Law 35.15.1:

§ 35.15 Justification; use of physical force in defense of a person.
1. A person may, subject to the provisions of subdivision two, use
physical force upon another person when and to the extent he or she
reasonably believes such to be necessary to defend himself, herself or a
third person from what he or she reasonably believes to be the use or
imminent use of unlawful physical force by such other person, unless:
(a) The latter's conduct was provoked by the actor with intent to
cause physical injury to another person; or
(b) The actor was the initial aggressor; except that in such case the
use of physical force is nevertheless justifiable if the actor has
withdrawn from the encounter and effectively communicated such
withdrawal to such other person but the latter persists in continuing
the incident by the use or threatened imminent use of unlawful physical
force; or
(c) The physical force involved is the product of a combat by
agreement not specifically authorized by law.
2. A person may not use deadly physical force upon another person
under circumstances specified in subdivision one unless:
(a) The actor reasonably believes that such other person is using or
about to use deadly physical force. Even in such case, however, the
actor may not use deadly physical force if he or she knows that with
complete personal safety, to oneself and others he or she may avoid the
necessity of so doing by retreating; except that the actor is under no
duty to retreat if he or she is:
(i) in his or her dwelling and not the initial aggressor; or
(ii) a police officer or peace officer or a person assisting a police
officer or a peace officer at the latter's direction, acting pursuant to
section 35.30; or
(b) He or she reasonably believes that such other person is committing
or attempting to commit a kidnapping, forcible rape, forcible criminal
sexual act or robbery; or
(c) He or she reasonably believes that such other person is committing
or attempting to commit a burglary, and the circumstances are such that
the use of deadly physical force is authorized by subdivision three of
section 35.20.

N.Y. Penal Law 35.20:

§ 35.20 Justification; use of physical force in defense of premises and in defense of a person in the course of burglary.
1. Any person may use physical force upon another person when he or
she reasonably believes such to be necessary to prevent or terminate
what he or she reasonably believes to be the commission or attempted
commission by such other person of a crime involving damage to premises.
Such person may use any degree of physical force, other than deadly
physical force, which he or she reasonably believes to be necessary for
such purpose, and may use deadly physical force if he or she reasonably
believes such to be necessary to prevent or terminate the commission or
attempted commission of arson.
2. A person in possession or control of any premises, or a person
licensed or privileged to be thereon or therein, may use physical force
upon another person when he or she reasonably believes such to be
necessary to prevent or terminate what he or she reasonably believes to
be the commission or attempted commission by such other person of a
criminal trespass upon such premises. Such person may use any degree of
physical force, other than deadly physical force, which he or she
reasonably believes to be necessary for such purpose, and may use deadly
physical force in order to prevent or terminate the commission or
attempted commission of arson, as prescribed in subdivision one, or in
the course of a burglary or attempted burglary, as prescribed in
subdivision three.
3. A person in possession or control of, or licensed or privileged to
be in, a dwelling or an occupied building, who reasonably believes that
another person is committing or attempting to commit a burglary of such
dwelling or building, may use deadly physical force upon such other
person when he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to
prevent or terminate the commission or attempted commission of such
burglary.
4. As used in this section, the following terms have the following
meanings:
(a) The terms "premises," "building" and "dwelling" have the meanings
prescribed in section 140.00;
(b) Persons "licensed or privileged" to be in buildings or upon other
premises include, but are not limited to:
(i) police officers or peace officers acting in the performance of
their duties; and
(ii) security personnel or employees of nuclear powered electric
generating facilities located within the state who are employed as part
of any security plan approved by the federal operating license agencies
acting in the performance of their duties at such generating facilities.
For purposes of this subparagraph, the term "nuclear powered electric
generating facility" shall mean a facility that generates electricity
using nuclear power for sale, directly or indirectly, to the public,
including the land upon which the facility is located and the safety and
security zones as defined under federal regulations.

Note that if defending yourself from an attack or burglary, if you retreated to your home safely - stay there and call the police. Do not escalate the situation by leaving your home and going after the aggressor. Such was the case of The People vs. Hernandez, who was found guilty of manslaughter since he shot him in the "common area" after he had safely retreated to his home (within his 4 walls), after being attacked, where he went back to confront the aggressor with a gun and shot him. The link below also provides direct links to the NY Penal laws on use of deadly force and cites other recent cases, so it's a good reference.

People Vs. Jose Hernandez:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/nyctap/I02_0075.htm

Duty to Retreat:
NY State requires duty to retreat whenever possible, EXCEPT in one's own dwelling. (35.15.2(a) - listed above) - This does not give you to right to shoot anyone in your home! It is only of a last resort if you are under immediate danger/duress

Note that there was a case People vs. Aiken, where a man tried to enter a person's home. The owner shot him in the apt. doorway that separated his apartment and the hallway. Because the actual doorway was considered not his dwelling, being outside the walls of his apt. He was convicted of manslaughter.

http://www.stjohns.edu/academics/graduate/law/journals/lawreview/issues/82-1/delpozo.stj

In People v. Aiken, the New York Court of Appeals held unanimously that a person standing in his apartment doorway has a duty to retreat inside before using deadly force in self-defense. History supports the notion that the dwelling exception to the retreat rule is meant to prevent people from having to flee their homes in times of danger. Hence, both precedent and common sense dictate that "requiring a person standing in the doorway to step inside the apartment to avoid a violent encounter is not the equivalent of mandating retreat from one's home."

The dwelling exemption across all retreat jurisdictions should extend only to inhabited physical structures and completely enclosed appurtenances, such as porches and terraces. This workable rule allows fact finders to focus less on whether something is or is not a dwelling on a case-by-case basis, and more on the "central question [of] whether defendant reasonably believed she was about to suffer death or serious physical injury." The prerequisite that defensive force, to be justified, appear necessary makes retreat a lesser included of this principle. Thus, an exemption from retreat for a homeowner who barely discerns danger to his person or property, and yet chooses to escalate hostilities, may be a free pass for murder.

Court summary of this case is available here:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/nyctap/I05_0039.htm

So as you can see, use of deadly force can still result in conviction, so only use it as an absolute last resort. (kick, push, ram the person out of your dwelling if you have to - only use deadly force if you have no choice...). The statute says it's justifiable in one's dwelling to prevent a burglary, but remember - you have a good chance of it going to court where that burden of proof will be on you if you shot someone.

Again, I stress that this is not legal advice, nor is this information to be construed as condoning/supporting/promoting use of deadly force. This is presenting some of the facts as they are. It is ultimately up to you to make your own conclusions, research, and make your own decisions on your own legal council or policy.

Does NY Have Castle Doctrine?
No. However, note the above laws on use of deadly force in a dwelling - however it's restricted to your dwelling (ie: within your walls and not in any common space such as the doorway) and a burglary is in progress. There have been many cases of deadly force being used in those cases of home invasions, however, almost all went to a grand jury for a review. Again, express extreme restraint in using deadly force and only resort to it only in the absolute need where there is literally no other option.

NY Self-Defense Blog:
http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/labels/NY.html

[MueveloNYC]

New York City (5 Boroughs Ranges) * = means MueveloNYC is a member here
Pistol:
Westside Rifle & Pistol Range* (.22lr to .45ACP pistols and rifles, 50' indoor, offers rentals, Open to Public - appointment required) - Flatiron District Manhattan: www.westsidepistolrange.com
Update: March 2008 - Good news, Westside range is now able to rent rifles to the public again. However, you will have to pass an NICS check before being able to handle a firearm. So if you're a felon, sorry, you won't be able to fire a firearm in NYC.[/url]

Bayridge Rod & Gun Club (indoor pistol 75', Private Membership Range) - Brooklyn: http://www.gunsports.com

Shotgun (Trap):
Staten Island Sportsman Club* - (5 trap houses, $6 for 25 clays, $6 for 25 rounds, you need to own your own shotgun, eyes, ears, open to public): http://www.sitrap.org/

Rifle:
Colonial Rod & Gun Club (Private Membership Range) - Staten Island (200 yard rifle, 75 yard pistol, reactive targets, outdoor): http://www.colonialrifleandpistolclub.com

Cherry Ridge* - NJ (Official NRA Range, ANJRPC, Private Membership Range but easy to become a member, all outdoor, pistol, rifle 50-300 yards, shotgun, trap, silhoutte reactive target range, archery): http://www.anjrpc.org/cherry_ridge.htm

#########################


I'm under 21, can I apply for a pistol license?
No. You have to be 21.

How many guns am I allowed to own?
NYPD allows you to have 4 guns in the home. Upon purchasing the 5th firearm, you must prove you have a gun safe for them, as well as be subject to spot inspections by NYPD. This is a time consuming process and only occurs during the day on weekdays. If you are working during the day, this will prove a huge inconvenience (so consider 4 the magic #). There's a hard limit of no more than X guns (note - researching the exact source of the exact number and will fill this in so I can cite it)

What's the FDNY 200 round rule?
FDNY fire codes state that you can only have 200 rounds of ammunition max in your home in NYC. Not 200 rounds of each caliber, it's 200 total - period.

Can I own multiple calibers of bullets?
Only if you own a gun of that caliber. NYC is expecting that you only buy ammunition from an FFL who is only allowed to sell you ammunition for the calibers of guns listed on your license. Technically, owning bullets of calibers other than the ones for guns you own is considered illegal.

How come I can't buy ammo in the mail to ship to NYC?
On the books, NYC states you can only buy ammunition from an FFL, and the FFL must keep records of your NYC gun license as validation. Most online dealers are not willing to keep such records as it's a hassle. Only FFL's are allowed to receive ammo in the mail and sell ammo in NY City. This is why almost all shippers won't ship ammo to NYC. They will ship to other locations in NY State. You can buy ammo in person outside of NY City, just keep in mind to adhere to the FDNY max 200 round rule in your home.

What's the magazine cap in NYC?
No more than 10 rounds for pistols. Shotguns/rifles cannot have a capacity more than 5 rounds.

Can I own something if they are Pre-Ban?
In NYC (5 boroughs) no. Posession is a felony and can result in 3 years prison and permanent revocation of gun ownership and your firearms. The burden of proof is on the owner in posession of the mag to have appropriate documentation or proof that they are preban. (basically you're guilty until proven innocent) Assault weapons, class III arms, prior and post ban are prohibited.

Can I own a USP/c Tactical or Mark 23?
Yes, but it must have the thread protector for the threaded barrel. You must have this on the gun at all times.

So if I own that, can I own a flash hider or suppressor?
No - anything that goes on a threaded barrel is illegal.

What are new gun requirements in NY/NYC?
New guns for sale in NY/NYC must have a capacity of no more than 10 rounds, and must come with a sealed envelope of a fired casing to be submitted by the NYC FFL to NYPD's ballistics database. Used guns do not need this case.
Some pistols, such as the FN Five-seveN are banned.

Can I bring my guns into NJ and shoot at a range in NJ?
EDIT: Please read this (http://www.hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=78835&page=28) as a recent court ruling has changed the statement below...

Questionable: However, many posts from packing.org (when it was around) highly recommended that you get a Purchaser's ID card for non-resident. This allows NJ Police and state troopers to have a confirmed ID on your as "safe" in the event you are pulled over with firearms in your car. The card is also required to purchase handgun ammo in NJ, which you'll probably want to buy at the range too. Remember to transport the firearms in your vehicle the same way it is required in NYC. Do not bring hollowpoint ammo into NJ (it's just not worth the trouble/harassment). If you must bring them (ie: if you're using Federal Gold Medal match ammo), print out this from the NJ State Police website and bring it with you as a precaution:
http://www.nj.gov/njsp/about/fire_hollow.html

Also when transporting to NJ print this as well:
http://www.nj.gov/njsp/about/fire_trans.html

It's come to my attention that one should consider getting an FID card after a few incidents were reported. Having an FID card at least gives NJ State/Local Police some reference of who you are, and a level of confidence where you are authorized to be in possession of firearms (only to and from the range with no diversions inbetween). Print out the State Police safe transportation of firearms, your FID card, and range membership card with you.

A fillable PDF form for the FID is available here:
http://www.state.nj.us/njsp/info/pdf/firearms/sts-033.pdf

You will also need to fill out and bring the SP66 (Consent for Mental Health Records Search) with you:
http://www.state.nj.us/njsp/info/pdf/firearms/sp-066.pdf

Additional forms for reference are available here:
http://www.state.nj.us/njsp/info/forms.html

Take this with you when you go to the State Trooper station. The closest one to Manhattan that will service FID requests is in Totowa, NJ (requires a drive out to there):
Totowa Sub-Station
250 Minisink Road
Totowa, N.J. 07512
(973) 785-9419

Direct Contact: Detective Long (confirmed contact as of July 2008) to schedule an appointment for the FID and fingerprinting. Make sure to inquire how much in Money Orders / Cashiers check to bring as well.
(973) 785-9412, ext. 4328

To find other locations that can service you, contact the NJ State Trooper HQ, Firearms Unit at: (609) 882-2000, ext 6619

From:
http://www.state.nj.us/njsp/faq.html#firearms

Q: How do you obtain a Firearms Purchaser Identification Card?
A: You must apply at your local police department. If you do not have a local police department or you are an out of state resident, you must apply at the nearest New Jersey State Police station (excluding toll roads, stations on the New Jersey Turnpike, Garden State Parkway, and Atlantic City Expressway).

For any further information outlining specific requirements, contact your local police department or nearest New Jersey State Police station.

Police Stations map:
http://www.nj.gov/njsp/divorg/operations/roadstations.html

More detailed info available from here:
http://www.state.nj.us/njsp/info/pdf/firearms/njac-title13-ch54.pdf
Linked from: http://www.state.nj.us/njsp/about/fire_ag2.html

From the NRA:

It is unlawful to knowingly possess any handgun, including any antique handgun, without first having obtained a Permit to Carry, and it is unlawful to knowingly possess any rifle or shotgun without having first obtained a Firearms Purchaser Identification Card (FID), however, no Permit to Carry or FID is required:
1. To keep or carry any firearm about a person’s place of business, residence, premises, or other land owned or possessed by him; a place of business shall be deemed a fixed location.
2. To carry any firearm unloaded and contained in a closed and fastened case, gunbox, securely tied package, or locked in the trunk of the automobile in which it is being transported and the course of travel shall include only such deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances from any place of purchase to his residence or place of business, between his dwelling and his place of business, from one place of business or residence and another when moving, or between his dwelling or place of business and place where such firearms are repaired, for the purpose of repair.
3. To transport such firearms as necessary for target practice, in the manner described in paragraph 2 above, by a member of a gun club organized in accordance with the rules prescribed by the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice in going to or from a place of target practice, provided the club has filed a copy of its charter with the Superintendent of State Police and annually submits a list of its members to the superintendent.
4. To transport any firearm, in the manner described in paragraph 2 above, while traveling:
a. Directly to or from any place for the purpose of hunting or fishing, provided such person has in his possession a valid hunting or fishing license.
b. Directly to or from any target range or other authorized place for the purpose of practice, match, target, trap or skeet shooting exhibitions.

[MueveloNYC]

Additional NYC Specific Points:

To search NY and NYC codes directly, input the key word or code # for the law in the Legislature's search database here:
http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/menugetf.cgi?COMMONQUERY=LAWS

Also available is this listing on the NY Admin firearms code:
http://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article265.htm

Bill A3447 in 2008 (banning frangible ammo) while passing the NY Assembly, did not pass the rest of the State Legislature. Thanks to the NRA for pointing this out as the NY Assembly's website doesn't show that it didn't pass later on To date there is no legislation in the NYC Admin code banning frangible ammo.

As of 2006, painted/colored guns are banned in NYC. Nassau County also has a specific law banning guns that are not standard gun colors (black, metal, blued, wood, olive drab, tan, silver/grey). NY law posted here:
http://webdocs.nyccouncil.info/textfiles/Int%200365-2006.htm?CFID=121556&CFTOKEN=77217749

Is is legal to reload my own ammunition in NY City?
No. Loose powder is a controlled dangerous substance in NYC and requires a license (similar to how Propane tanks in Manhattan require one).

27-4040 Manufacturing; loading. It shall be unlawful to manufacture, or load ammunition by power machinery. A special permit may be issued to a person holding a permit for the storage and sale of ammunition, authorizing the loading of small arms ammunition by hand.

Can I buy a bullet proof vest or body armor?
No, possession is a felony for all of NY State unless you are law enforcement.

Detailed info on the 200 Round rule

27-4041 Storage and sale. a. Permit. It shall be unlawful to store,
sell or offer for sale any ammunition in excess of two hundred small arm
cartridges without a permit.
b. Blanks for artillery. Holders of permits issued under this section
may store a limited number of blank shells or cartridges to be used in
cannon for saluting purposes; the number to be so stored shall be fixed
by the commissioner in each case, and shall be stated in the permit.
c. Quantities. The commissioner may fix the maximum quantity of
ammunition to be stored in any premises for which a permit is applied,
and the quantity so fixed shall be stated in the permit; but no permit
shall be issued for the storage of ammunition in quantities greater than
the following:
300,000 loaded shells containing shot, for shotguns not
exceeding No. 8 gauge;
2,500,000 cartridges for pistols;
500,000 cartridges for rifles of a caliber not larger than
.45 of an inch;
10,000 cartridges for rifles of a caliber not larger than
.50 of an inch;
5,000 cartridges for rifles of a caliber between .50 of an
inch and .58 of an inch;
5,000 blank cartridges of a caliber not larger than .45 of
an inch;
3,000,000 primers for central fire ammunition;
6,000,000 percussion caps, or primers, without anvils.
d. Restriction. No permit for the storage and sale of ammunition in
excess of two hundred small arms cartridges shall be issued for any
premises:
1. Where the building does not comply with the requirements of the
building code regulating high hazard occupancies for buildings erected
after the sixth day of December, nineteen hundred sixty-eight; or where
a building or building section erected prior thereto is not fully
equipped with an approved automatic sprinkler system; or where the
building is occupied as a multiple dwelling, school, theatre or other
place of public amusement or assembly, except armories of the armed
forces;
2. Which are used as a drug store, paint store, pawn shop or
stationery store;
3. Where cigars, cigarettes or tobaccos are stored or kept for sale;
4. Where liquors are sold;
5. Where other materials of a highly flammable nature are
manufactured, stored or kept for sale, but this restriction shall not
apply to a person duly authorized to keep and sell gunpowder;
6. Where fireworks are manufactured, stored or sold.
e. Theatrical use. No permit shall be issued for the use of blank
cartridges, except in connection with performances in duly authorized
theatres or places of public amusement, or for saluting purposes, as
provided in subdivision b of this section.
f. Window displays. It shall be unlawful for the holder of a permit
for the storage and sale of ammunition to store or exhibit in the
windows or doors of the premises covered by the permit any cartridge or
shells containing explosives.

Is the Benelli M4 shotgun legal to own in NYC if you have the fixed stock (no pistol grip)?
From our analysis so far it seems like it is not legal. The post-ban M1 Super 90's with a non-pistol (fixed) stock with a round capacity of 3+1 rounds are legal as long as they are 16" or longer barrel.

Is the GSG-5/p (.22lr MP5 clone) allowed in NY?
No. GSG-5 still counts as an assualt weapon since mag capacity exceeds 5 round for a rifle and has pistol grip semi auto configuration. The GSG-5p Pistol is also banned since which it has a 10 round mag capacity, the magazine protrudes outside of the grip (ie: the magazine isn't inside the pistol grip).

90 Day wait rule applies for both pistol and rifle/shotgun. However, neither licensing division will keep tabs on the other on your status. It is up to you to make sure you buy at 90 day intervals (they can audit from BATFE forms). The wording of the law states any firearm

§3. Section 10-302.1 of the administrative code of the city of New York, as added by local law number 9 for the year 2005, is amended to read as follows:

§10-302.1 Preventing the diversion of firearms, rifles and shotguns to criminals. a. No dealer in firearms and no dealer in rifles and shotguns shall: (i) sell or otherwise dispose of more than one firearm or more than one rifle or shotgun to any individual as part of the same sales transaction; or (ii) sell or otherwise dispose of a rifle or shotgun to any individual if the dealer knows or should know that such individual has purchased a [firearm,] rifle or shotgun within the prior ninety days, or (iii) sell or otherwise dispose of a firearm to any individual if the dealer knows or should know that such individual has purchased a firearm within the prior ninety days.

b. No person shall acquire a firearm if such person has acquired a firearm within the previous ninety days. No person shall acquire a rifle or shotgun if such person has acquired a rifle or shotgun within the previous ninety days. For purposes of this subdivision when a firearm, rifle or shotgun is acquired by a corporation, partnership, or other entity, it shall be considered to have been acquired by each natural person who is an officer, director or other principal of such entity, unless the firearm, rifle or shotgun is acquired on behalf of such entity by a person who is licensed by the commissioner as gun custodian or special gun custodian, or acquired on behalf of an organization possessing an organization registration certificate, as those terms are used in title thirty-eight of the rules of the city of New York.

Is it legal to own a pre-ban high capacity magazine (more than 10 rounds) in NYC?
No. Criminal possession of a weapon in the third degree is a class D felony under NYS Penal Law 265.02. Basically ANY high cap mag is banned, as the law makes no clause of pre-1994 exemption.


NYS Penal Law 265.02

S 265.02 Criminal possession of a weapon in the third degree.
A person is guilty of criminal possession of a weapon in the third
degree when:
(1) He commits the crime of criminal possession of a weapon in the
fourth degree as defined in subdivision one, two, three or five of
section 265.01, and has been previously convicted of any crime; or
(2) He possesses any explosive or incendiary bomb, bombshell, firearm
silencer, machine-gun or any other firearm or weapon simulating a
machine-gun and which is adaptable for such use; or
(3) He knowingly has in his possession a machine-gun, firearm, rifle
or shotgun which has been defaced for the purpose of concealment or
prevention of the detection of a crime or misrepresenting the identity
of such machine-gun, firearm, rifle or shotgun; or
(4) Such person possesses any loaded firearm. Such possession shall
not, except as provided in subdivision one or seven, constitute a
violation of this section if such possession takes place in such
person`s home or place of business; or
(5) (i) Such person possesses twenty or more firearms; or (ii) such
person possesses a firearm and has been previously convicted of a felony
or a class A misdemeanor defined in this chapter within the five years
immediately preceding the commission of the offense and such possession
did not take place in the person`s home or place of business; or
(6) Such person knowingly possesses any disguised gun; or
(7) Such person possesses an assault weapon; or
(8) Such person possesses a large capacity ammunition feeding device.

[MueveloNYC]

Educational info: This section gives articles and videos for learning about the sport of shooting and the reasons why one should own firearms. These views aren't necessarily the same views as those here on HKpro.com or myself (nor did we make these articles/videos), they are simply here for extra education so that you may form your own opinion based on these arguments.

Owning a gun for self-defense is affirmed by DC vs. Heller, but there are now legal rulings that push the issue that one should provide your own method of self-defense. In the court ruling of Riss v. New York, 22 N.Y.2d 579,293 N.Y.S.2d 897, 240 N.E.2d 806 the ruling has stated that the police and law enforcement do not have to duty nor legal liability to protect you if your life is in danger. This ultimately means that self-defense is ultimately up to oneself.

Other similar rulings:
Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005)
Barillari v. City of Milwaukee 533 N.W.2d 759
Bowers v. DeVito 686 F.2d 616
DeShaney v. Winnebago County Department of Social Services 489 U.S. 189
Ford v. Town of Grafton 693 N.E.2d 1047
Warren v. District of Columbia 444 A.2d 1 -- "...a government and its agencies are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any particular individual citizen..."
Riss v. New York, 22 N.Y.2d 579,293 N.Y.S.2d 897, 240 N.E.2d 806
Lynch v. N.C. Dept. of Justice, 376 S.E. 2nd 247 -- "Law enforcement agencies and personnel have no duty to protect individuals from the criminal acts of others; instead their duty is to preserve the peace and arrest law breakers for the protection of the general public."
Zeling v. County of Los Angeles, 02 S.O.S. 2400

UK Article cites despite UK's gun ban, gun violence no less than the USA
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1208782/Britains-drug-gun-culture-bad-U-S-crime-The-Wire-say-Tories.html

NYC Woman describes her path from Liberal to an NYC Gun owner (NY Magazine):
http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/crimelaw/features/4320/

ABC News: Gun Myths (2003 Airing)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RR9RN_iSKtg

ABC News: Gun Myths, Update Version (2007 Airing)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_YTM_eAWnQ

30 Days - Gun Nation: Anti-gun person spends 30 days living with a pro-gun household
http://www.hulu.com/watch/25712/30-days-gun-nation

A student with a CCW license saves his 10 friends from being raped and executed:
http://www.wsbtv.com/news/19365762/detail.html

Exactly what an "assault rifle" is. (Many, including the media, are confused):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjM9fcEzSJ0

If you're on youtube, do a search for "Penn & Teller Gun" for their episode of "Bullshit!: Gun Control" which makes great arguments as well. The link keeps changing so search method is the best way to do it.

A woman who was raped, shoots the rapist, a career criminal, who broke into her house again 5 days later. She called 911, but they didn't arrive until he already broke through the door:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NJQK2BscIg

A great article from a woman who explains why she wants to carry:
http://www.tampabay.com/news/perspective/article883277.ece

Also one should not forget the Watts Riots, LA Riots, NYC Blackout of 1977 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_blackout_of_1977), Katrina, and Hurricane Ike. Looters have taken to the streets and you can only defend yourself. Land line phones won't work and there is no electricity to power cell phone towers. Even during the blackout of 2003 in NYC, phones and cell phones did not work.

This MSNBC also explains how gun sales spike during uncertain times and after situations where people realize a gun was needed:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27393833

ABC News has an interesting video about how homeowners have to defend their homes from looters: http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=weather&id=6390196

Appalachian School of Law incident (2002): Armed students stop gunman with their own legally owned personal firearms: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_School_of_Law_shooting

Fox's counterargument against the flawed experiment ABC's 20/20: "If I only had a gun":
http://foxforum.blogs.foxnews.com/2009/04/15/lott__gun_control_experiment_rigged/

Articles:
NYTimes Article with a Harvard Study on how higher gun ownership results in less murders worldwide, especially in Europe, and 1/2 of American households now own guns:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/weekinreview/29liptak.html?pagewanted=1&ref=us

There is some evidence, Professor Volokh said, that denying guns to people who might use them in self-defense, usually merely by brandishing them, tends to increase crime rates. There is also evidence that the possibility of confronting a victim with a gun deters some criminals.

In addition, criminals are the people least likely to obey gun control laws, meaning that the laws probably have a disproportionate impact on law-abiding individuals. "For the typical gun control law," Professor Volokh said, "you’ll have very little positive effect but a possible negative effect."

Wall St. Journal Article: Gun laws aren't effective, but severe sentencing for gun-related crimes are a deterrant:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121789872887012221.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

NY gun database has yet to lead to prosecution (AP Newswire):
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=157&sid=4387163

FBI Crime Statistics show murder at 40 year low, even with gun ownership at an all time high:
http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Federal/Read.aspx?id=4181

In 2007, as in years past, Right-to-Carry states had lower violent crime rates, on average, compared to the rest of the country with total violent crime lower by 24 percent, murder by 28 percent, robbery by 50 percent, and aggravated assault by 11 percent.

Gallup Poll shows that 73% of Americans support the 2nd Amendment:
http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Federal/Read.aspx?id=3741
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/16/guns.poll/

ABC News Article on Gun Ownership:
http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenumbers/2008/06/guns-and-the-co.html

Per our most recent ABC/Post poll, 42 percent of Americans have a gun in the household, a number that’s been stable in recent years. Twenty-five percent have a handgun at home, 23 percent a shotgun, 27 percent a rifle.

House Representative Dr. Suzanna Gratia-Hupp's Congressional Statement on guns (she does not hunt nor is a gun enthusiast, but her parents were gunned down in front of her at a restaurant where carry concealed was not allowed):
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4069761537893819675&pr=goog-sl

Editorial Cartoon Explaining how Criminals think of gun laws:
http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/56/cartoonaq3.jpg

More Satire (although true!):
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/suprarunner/gun_control_works2.jpg

Satire Video from FoxNews: Gun Free Zones
www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7pGt_O1uM8

Georgia crime rate plummets in wake of gun law: (2 years of statistics)
http://www.examiner.com/x-5619-Atlanta-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m12d14-Marta-crime-rate-falls-in-wake-of-gun-law

Satire Video: Criminals for Gun Control
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3L3kMuN8sjk
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krq34URvk6s

Satire Video: Differece between Bullets and Cartridges
http://www.thedissidentfrogman.com/blog/link/like-a-suppository-only-stronger/

The argument of complying with aggressor demands (ie: the it's not worth your life argument) no longer works. Even law enforcement have changed tactics as most aggressors now intend to kill and have no regards to their own life:
http://www.wcpo.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=d26c29ff-f134-4202-bc40-947534a6de3c

Yes guns are also used in Olympic sports:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/10/sports/olympics/10marksmen.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

China has a complete totalitarian ban on guns, yet criminals get their hands on them:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122394012224530655.html

Even the NY Times defended it's own building with Gatling guns. Article: "A Scare for Rioters"
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9903E7D61638E433A25754C2A9659C94699ED7CF
(Illustrates clearly of how they once understood that guns are a deterrent for crime)

Being ignorant is not an excuse: Citibank cancels merchant account despite FFL to FFL legal transfer!
http://www.nssf.org/news/fromBP.cfm?BPseq=704

NY Gun owner in Inwood, Long Island (not NYC) owns an semi-auto SAR-1 (AK-47 clone) opens up fire on armed home invaders:
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/crime/ny-etmustopb5955749dec08,0,1103935.story

UK Article with an interesting view of how the nation of India allowed people to be armed, they could've prevented the Mumbai attacks:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/article5299010.ece

UK Citizens remorseful about being apathetic on letting laws encroach their rights all the way to an outright ban:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTq2NEUlhDE

Fox News John Lott's Book has lots of research and cases, and discusses the law:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0226493644

Other Gun's used in self-defense feeds:
http://claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/blogger.html
http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/search/label/DefensiveGunUse
http://www.keepandbeararms.com/opsd/default.asp

Why Swiss has the lowest crime rate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nf1OgV449g

[Lion]

I'm waiting on my NYC Premises Permit. Have you traveled the state with this? Any problems? I want to apply for Florida CCW and was wondering if I would be able to leave NYC with a handgun.

[MueveloNYC]

#### Famous Quotes: #########
"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms .... disarm only
those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.
Such laws make things worse for the assaulted
and better for the assailants. They serve rather to encourage
than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be
attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." - Thomas Jefferson

"The constitutions of most of our states [and of the United States] assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; that they are entitled to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom of property and freedom of the press." -Thomas Jefferson

"No provision in our Constitution ought to be dearer to man
than that which protects the rights of conscience
against the enterprises from civil authority" - Thomas Jefferson

"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent
the government from wasting the labors of the people
under the pretense of taking care of them." - Thomas Jefferson

"The Constitution shall never be construed to authorize congress
to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable
citizens .... from keeping their own arms." - Samuel Adams

"Only an armed people can be truly free.
Only an unarmed people can ever be enslaved." - Aristotle

"A government that is big enough to give you all you want
is big enough to take it all away." - Barry Goldwater

"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people,
it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government
-- lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." - Patrick Henry

"Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it." - George Bernard Shaw

“Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States. A military force, at the command of Congress, can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power, and jealousy will instantly inspire the inclination, to resist the execution of a law which appears to them unjust and oppressive.”
--- Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution (Philadelphia 1787).

“As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow-citizens, the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear their private arms.”
--- Tench Coxe, "Remarks on the First Part of the Amendments to the Federal Constitution," in the Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789

"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
--- Richard Henry Lee, Virginia delegate to the Continental Congress, initiator of the Declaration of Independence, and member of the first Senate, which passed the Bill of Rights.

"The great object is that every man be armed . . . Everyone who is able may have a gun."
--- Patrick Henry, in the Virginia Convention on the ratification of the Constitution.

"The advantage of being armed . . . the Americans possess over the people of all other nations . . . Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several Kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms."
--- James Madison, author of the Bill of Rights, in his Federalist Paper No. 46.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. "
--- Thomas Jefferson

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
--- Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790), Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

"You cannot invade mainland America. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass" -Admiral Itsoroku Yamamoto (explaining why Japan decided against an invasion of the US in WWII)

"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look
upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." - Mahatma Gandhi

"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks." - Thomas Jefferson

"Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government's purposes are beneficent... The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding." - Justice Louis Brandeis

[Lion]

Thanks for the reply. I sort of understood about this "gray area". As a matter of fact I even asked about it an my interview. So traveling to PA to shoot has not been a problem for you? Are not only "authorizied ranges" in NYC allowed? Sorry for all this newbe stuff just trying to see what guys before me have dealt with.

[MueveloNYC]

Ironchef details his process on change of address for the pistol permits:


Like RKBA, I also recently moved and MueveloNYC asked that I post my own experience with the change of address documentation at 1PP and at Kew Gardens. Please be aware this is how my experience worked out. Your mileage may vary and please check the laws to see if anything I missed may apply. This is not the end all be all type guide but just to clarify somethings and perhaps help prep fellow NYC members before dealing with the bureaucrecy. I cannot and will not be held liable for any negative experience you may encounter based on this post.

If you move or change jobs and hold a pistol and/or rifle shotgun permit, you will need to notify NYPD. This is especially so for the address change

1. Check to see what local police precinct covers your new address. For me, I only moved five blocks but I checked anyways and the police precinct remained the same.

2. Obtain the address change form from pistol licensing and rifle/shotgun licensing. Note that the pistol form needs to be notarized. The rifle/shotgun form does not but it helps just in case. I believe you can get either form off the NYPD website, or if you call them to mail it to you, or you go to each respective location and pick up a form. Paperwork must be submitted in person at each respective licensing location (1PP and Kew Gardens).

3. NYPD requires that you notify them within 10 days of the change of address. How this is interpreted, I am unsure. Obviously, the sooner you do it the better. You need to allot time to get certain documentation in place and my own experience seemed to work out best for me and I'll go further into detail.

4. I signed the lease for my new apt. in the beginning of October 2009. However my old lease did not expire till the end of October 2009 and my rent for both locations were paid. That left my roughly 3 1/2 weeks to move out and also get things done for my licenses. This worked out for me as I still resided at the old location which my guns were registered under and also the address on my licenses.

5. First thing I did was change one of my utilities over to the new address as it is considered documented proof you've moved. In fact, Kew Gardens specifically asks for a utility bill. Anything else like a credit card bill would need a copy of the lease to accompany it. Since I have a home phone, that is what I changed over. I know nowadays a lot of people do not bother or have it tied to their cable or Internet service. I suggest picking out what you don't need and switching it over. ALWAYS BRING ORIGINAL BILLS WITH YOU.

6. What I also did was go to the DMV to change my driver's license over to the new address. The NYPD does not require a copy of your driver's license but I figured it is nice to show another government document with your new address. Additionally, the new driver's license is mailed to you so it could take up to two weeks to get. The sooner you do this the better.

7. Filled out the change of address form for both pistol and rifle/shotgun. Had these forms notarized, made copies of both licenses, made copies of the utility bill but brought the originals just in case and submitted to each location. Again, you have to go to each location in person to submit these documents and to obtain the new licenses with your updated information.

This sounds like a lot or a hassle but it was relatively easy compared to the normal nonsense one encounters when dealing with the NYPD.

[Lion]

I had asked them if I had a hunting endorsement and I went to my house upstate (where I can legally hunt on the land) can I stay overnight. The officer who was interviewing me said "Good Question". He was not sure so he asked his supervisor. She was unsure also so they gat the typical answer and told me to ask when I come to pick up my hunting endorsement after getting the pemit.

So, traveling to PA, if you get pulled over in NY, are you "on your way to the range". What if it's not hunting season, can I ping the gun out of the city to a range or my ouw land to shoot. Does federal safe travel hold with premise permits as well? I.E. If I am legal in my house, can I travel to PA where I am also legal? This is the main thing I have been trying to figure out forever. If you have dealt with any of this please enlighten me. Thanks.

Do I dare ask if you have even tried to fly out of Newark, JFK etc with a handgun?

[MueveloNYC]

Going upstate just state that you are travelling to an NYC approved range and state the range name and location, show your premise permit and hunting endorsement card.

Going out of state, premise permit is ok, but as a precaution for extra insurance I highly suggest getting a Florida or Utah CCW at a minimum.

Flying is possible as long as you're an NY/NYC resident and you travel without ammo, gun trigger locked, in a locked case, in checked in luggage. Continental and Delta require advanced notification and a firearms declaration form to sign. Also call them in advance and have them mail/fax you a signed letter authorizing transport. Also print out the PDF from the Dept of Justice (DOJ) PDF that's listed in the first post of this thread. It always helps to have documentation on you at all times so you can prove yourself on the spot. Also the destination you must have legitimate ability to bring your gun to that state. CCW helps big time in that aspect - even if that state does not require CCW to transport or shoot. NYC will give you the harder time.

[Lion]

Finally good to speak to someone who is going to the same thing I am. So I guess I need a range upstate, can;t just go shoot on my own property?

What about the whole "guns is never to leave house" thing? I guess the endorsemnt card takes care of that?

How long did it take for your permit? I applied in January, had my interview in Feb. and still have not heard anything back. They have not even contacted by character refs.

[MueveloNYC]

Essentially the rule is "gun never to leave the home" unless going to the range. The hunting endorsement technically authorizes you to hunt, so if your other property is large enough, and that county allows you to discharge, technically that could be considered hunting on your own property. You could always ask NYPD for clarification and the county of your property.

For me I applied a while ago, took 18 months. I've heard recently that people have gotten as soon as 6 months (which is incredibly fast for NYPD pistol license standards), so you might get it in 6 months. But yes - its a long friggin time and its excruciating. Mind you the whole license process in total will set you back about $400.

[NYC_FA]

Well i guess misery loves company. I started the process of getting a license last month and I already want to pull my hair out.

[Lion]

Hate to tell you this but I applied in January, had my interview in Feb and am still waiting. If you have questions let me know. Lots of paperwork.

[MueveloNYC]

yup the process takes about 6 months (which is actually fast, as it took me 18 months back in the day)

[NYC_FA]

Just as an update....

I called today to check the status of my application. It has been eight weeks and I haven't heard anything so I wanted to be certain I didn't miss a letter or phone call. They said i can expect to get a letter "next month" to come in for the initial interview. No idea how much longer it will be after that.

I don't mind the wait or the $440 plus fee as long as it results in a permit being issued in the end. My biggest concern is that I will have wasted 6 months and $400 and not get the permit because of some clerical error or typo on my part. I don't have any issues or criminal past so, if I am denied, it will be purely for some sort of procedural mistake on my part. That would really frustrate me. I'll keep everyone updated as the process goes along.

[MueveloNYC]

That's good news. The letter you get is basically given close to the end of the process (it tells you the date to come down and pick it up). Don't worry about losing money, they're not that sadistic. The female officer down there that did mine is actually really nice. He's handling a few other apps for people I've sent to get them, and one forgot to do the custody form. She just said bring it with him when he gets the final letter to come back down. So don't sweat it. They're not out to get your money. :)

[NYC_FA]

Now its been three months and still not a word from anyone. No letter, no phone call, nothing.

[MueveloNYC]

Now its been three months and still not a word from anyone. No letter, no phone call, nothing.

You can always give them a call and ask about the status. But usually the process is a little long, so I'd give them a week or two more. They'll tell you the same thing on the phone that the process takes 6 months. It's just a waiting game.

[JakFrost]

Now its been three months and still not a word from anyone. No letter, no phone call, nothing.

That is a normal so do not worry and just relax. Do not be antsy about it just wait until they contact you with a letter or with a phone call if they require clarification or additional documents. When you get the letter in the mail it will have a nice blue City of New York logo in the corner of the envelope so you'll know when you have reached the next step. It will come one day so let that be a pleasant surprise to you.

The people working in the licensing office are quite nice to deal with and understandable when it comes to small issues and missing or incorrect paperwork. They are not vindictive and they do not arbitrarily decide to reject your application because of clerical, paperwork, or other issues, they will contact you first to get clarification and will guide you on how to successfully resolve issues, even very serious ones involving prior criminal records, arrest warrants, bench warrants, etc. Unlike what you hear, you still qualify for a permit with a minor criminal record as long as you have no felonies and no misdemeanors of domestic assault.

Since a lot of this thread reads like the doom and gloom of NYC licensing I want to write a few good things from my and other people's real life experiences with licensing.

Experiences

Pleasant Interview

During my interview process the officer was very nice to me and asked me standard questions that were already answered on the application, my name, address, occupation, purpose for the firearm, my plans for storage of firearms (unloaded and locked), and the alternate location for storage while away (mother's house). The officer let me verify everything that was entered into the computer to ensure that it is correct. The interview was very quick and even then I had enough time for some questions and chit-chat about the licensing process. She was very pleasant and informed me that in a few months I will be receiving a follow-up letters informing me of their decision.

Clerical Errors Fixed

Another example on my first permit, the old green paper permits, the issuing officer made clerical errors on the makes and models of my first firearm twice in a row and I had to wait an additional hour at the office and give two additional photos for the permit to be issued but the officer did the work ahead of the line of other people who were waiting for their paperwork since she felt bad about making the mistakes and apologized for this. Now the issuing system is computerized and automated so any license additions or replacements are just a few keystrokes away and then the Print button.

License Replacement with a Smile

When the city changed the permit format from paper to credit card sized plastic with nice logo and color coding of license type they had problems with the system and the printing machines. Many of the licenses issued in the beginning had a problem with the ink that was sprayed on the back of the license where the registered firearms have their serial numbers written so after a while the serial numbers would rub off even while the license was never removed from the wallet. Obviously if your serial numbers were rubbed off and unreadable on your license and you were stopped by police or checked at the range for sales you would be in quite a bit of trouble being unable to prove the ownership of your firearms.

Well, I went to the office to see if I could receive a replacement license and that day the office was processing retired officers for their licenses so the little waiting room was full. When I asked the officer behind the desk about having my license replaced she said that if I wait an hour or more they would take care of me after all these other officers were processed or I could just stop by tomorrow. I decided to stop by the next day and handed the license to a different officer. She saw the problem and went back inside the office and was back again in 5-minutes with my new license in hand. She also brought out some clear tape and put a strip of it over my serial numbers on the back to prevent them from rubbing off again because she was aware of this problem. I had to pay nothing and the whole process was quite quick and with a smile.

Nice Collections of Pistols

A person that I know has a quite nice collection of very nice pistols of all various kinds, many dozens of pistols, many more than that magic number 4 that requires a safe afterwards. Well when the original paper permit system was being out phased into a computerized system the new plastic license does not have enough space on the back to hold the full list of pistols so the officer printed another blank plastic license with the additional serial numbers. It looks very nice and it is impressive. Since the collection is always growing the issuing office just keeps adding additional pistols to the license. So you see there is no arbitrary magic number of firearms that you can own.

Felony Arrest Warrant

A person that I have known personally who applied for a permit was contacted a few months after the application was sent it to come down to the office due to the existence of a felony arrest warrant for drug trafficking for their person matching their name and birth date. The person went down to the office and after an hour of checking the computer systems and clarifying the issue it was found that the warrant was accurate but that it was issued to another person with the same exact name and birth date as this person but the investigating officer was prudent enough to perform thorough checks and found that the social security number and place of birth of the two people did not match so he clarified the issue. Because of this event and the inconvenience the investigating officer was nice enough to perform and complete the other investigatory checks and this person received their premise permit in 4-months only. A record time according to all the people and dealers that I know.

Missing or Incorrect Paperwork

Many people, including myself, have been contacted by the pistol and rifle licensing offices during their application process with requests for additional, missing, or incorrect paperwork. Every time that a clerical issue like that comes along the office sends out a request for additional information with a list of issues and documents to submit by mail or person (mostly in-person). So if you make an error or forgot something from your application don't worry about being denied, they will contact you to get the information or paperwork. The issuing officers almost sound like they want to give you a permit since they are so nice about guiding you through the process successfully.

Sometimes the requests are arbitrary, such as in my case, I submitted the signed and notarized letting affirming my compliance with all laws for my rifle permit but I had to resubmit the same exact letter again during my application process since the one included in my application packet was old and was not printed on the blue City of New York letterhead paper. But this is just a minor hick-up in the process that just cost me some time to send the letter.

Issues

Purchase Authorizations Every 90-days (~120-days Realistically)

However, recently the city council passed a much unwelcome city ordinance that limits firearm purchases, handguns and long guns, to every 90-days and the licensing office is now strictly enforcing the ordinance by limiting the Request for Purchase Authorizations to 90-days after the registration of the previous pistol. The issuance of a Purchase Authorization after completing the Request for a Purchase Authorization has now been effectively lengthened to 2-3 months of time instead of the previous 1-2 months, making the 90-day limit effectively an approximate ~120-day limit on purchases when you include the delays between the request, the issuance, and registration.

Previously before the ordinance the office would issue a Purchase Authorization 4-8 weeks after 30-days from the previous Request for Purchase Authorization.

No Concealed Carry Permits for People

Also, there is no CCW (concealed carry weapon) permits issued to ordinary people in in NYC. They are only issued to armed security guards for usage during work, to state licensed Bail Enforcement agents, and for businessmen who transport more than $10,000 in cash or valuables to the bank daily.

New York City Permits and Members Welcome!

There is a country wide misunderstanding of the firearm licensing process in New York City and everyone has the impression that getting a license here almost impossible and too difficult to attempt. The process is long and requires a lot of paperwork but it is not difficult and it is entirely navigable by the average person with a little bit of reading, writing, and determination.

There is quite a substantial firearm enthusiast culture here in the city and the five boroughs. There are shooting ranges a plenty in all boroughs and new members are always welcome. There are local range competitions in all five boroughs of the city and plenty of friendly people to meeting and interact with.

The nice people that I have met at the range and that I see almost every week have all been great and now they are my second group of friends to hang out with.

While I wrote some of these positive experiences I just want to clarify that I am in no way justifying or defending the licensing process in any way, I find that the fees and licensing times are too high and too long and the passage of the 90-day waiting period is an arbitrary and ineffective measure. The people that work in the licensing office are very good and do their work thoroughly and they are helpful, it is the process and the laws that have problems and create issues.

[MueveloNYC]

holy cow! Thanks for the detailed info! Yeah the process is fairly tedious. At least once you get this, getting the longbarrel license is easy. They gave me mine in only 4 weeks.

[NYC_FA]

Thanks for the positive update! I have to admit, every day when I come home from work to flip through my mail I get a little giddy. I'm always thinking... "Is today the day?". So I know when it does come I'll be psyched. I'm sure everyone that works there is more then reasonable and It's important to remember they didn't make the laws they are just doing their job. Looking forward to joining West Side and meeting everyone when it's all said and done.

[ironchef]

You know, I filed for the permit and a few months later, completely forgot about it. Then I get the letter in the mail to pick it up and I was really surprised. Just be patient, focus on other things and it'll come through. Then it is time to shop! Look forward to seeing you at the Westside Range.

[MueveloNYC]

Thanks for the positive update! I have to admit, every day when I come home from work to flip through my mail I get a little giddy. I'm always thinking... "Is today the day?". So I know when it does come I'll be psyched. I'm sure everyone that works there is more then reasonable and It's important to remember they didn't make the laws they are just doing their job. Looking forward to joining West Side and meeting everyone when it's all said and done.

And when you do come say hi to all of us there. Crestfallen, IronChef, Tastysp, and a few others, including myself. ;) We're all family!

[Legal101]

What are NY's Laws on use of Deadly Force?
Note: This is a very gray area of the law - always use caution and only resort to deadly force if your life is in immediate jeopardy.

N.Y. Penal Law 35.15.1:


N.Y. Penal Law 35.20:


Note that if defending yourself from an attack or burglary, if you retreated to your home safely - stay there and call the police. Do not escalate the situation by leaving your home and going after the aggressor. Such was the case of The People vs. Hernandez, who was found guilty of manslaughter since he shot him in the "common area" after he had safely retreated to his home (within his 4 walls), after being attacked, where he went back to confront the aggressor with a gun and shot him. The link below also provides direct links to the NY Penal laws on use of deadly force and cites other recent cases, so it's a good reference.

People Vs. Jose Hernandez:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/nyctap/I02_0075.htm

Duty to Retreat:
NY State requires duty to retreat whenever possible, EXCEPT in one's own dwelling. (35.15.2(a) - listed above) - This does not give you to right to shoot anyone in your home! It is only of a last resort if you are under immediate danger/duress

Note that there was a case People vs. Aiken, where a man tried to enter a person's home. The owner shot him in the apt. doorway that separated his apartment and the hallway. Because the actual doorway was considered not his dwelling, being outside the walls of his apt. He was convicted of manslaughter.

http://www.stjohns.edu/academics/graduate/law/journals/lawreview/issues/82-1/delpozo.stj


Court summary of this case is available here:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/nyctap/I05_0039.htm

So as you can see, use of deadly force can still result in conviction, so only use it as an absolute last resort. (kick, push, ram the person out of your dwelling if you have to - only use deadly force if you have no choice...). The statute says it's justifiable in one's dwelling to prevent a burglary, but remember - you have a good chance of it going to court where that burden of proof will be on you if you shot someone.

Again, I stress that this is not legal advice, nor is this information to be construed as condoning/supporting/promoting use of deadly force. This is presenting some of the facts as they are. It is ultimately up to you to make your own conclusions, research, and make your own decisions on your own legal council or policy.

Does NY Have Castle Doctrine?
No. However, note the above laws on use of deadly force in a dwelling - however it's restricted to your dwelling (ie: within your walls and not in any common space such as the doorway) and a burglary is in progress. There have been many cases of deadly force being used in those cases of home invasions, however, almost all went to a grand jury for a review. Again, express extreme restraint in using deadly force and only resort to it only in the absolute need where there is literally no other option.

NY Self-Defense Blog:
http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/labels/NY.html



Hello everyone, I would like to thank Muevelo and everyone else for all the incitefull posts and I also wanted to add some info I went accross online:

This may be relevant to Muevelo's excellent post quoted above, which I feel is very accurate on the law:

1) For homeowners, it is worthwhile noting that in People v. Prince (2008 Slip Opinion) on appeal, modifies the law on the doorway entrypoint from that in Aiken for the sake of finding that a burglary was in progress.

THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK, Respondent, v TYLER L. PRINCE, Appellant. (857 N.Y.S.2d 320)

The facts were: "Defendant, who was 15 at the time of the incident, allegedly stabbed the victim in the head as she stood inside the doorway to the enclosed porch of her home"

and the outcome: "Defendant asserted on appeal, inter alia, that the evidence was legally insufficient to establish the entry element of burglary in the first degree as he never entered the victim's home. On appeal, the court affirmed, noting that the entry element was satisfied when one intruded within a building, no matter how slightly, with any part of his or her body"

Here is the discussions on the entry element of burglary:
"Defendant argues that the evidence was legally insufficient to establish the entry element of burglary in the first degree because he never entered Allen's home. In particular, citing People v Aiken, he claims that an assaultive act occurring at the threshold of a dwelling does not constitute burglary. Defendant's reliance on Aiken is unconvincing as that case addressed the duty to retreat before using deadly force and in no way implicated or called into doubt well-settled precedent pertaining to entry for the purpose of committing burglary. Indeed, the Court of Appeals has held that the entry element of burglary is satisfied "when a person intrudes within a building, no matter how slightly, with any part of his or her body" (People v King, [1984]). Notably, this Court has held that the act of kicking in a basement window was sufficient evidence of an entry for the purpose of establishing a burglary (see People v Cleveland, [2001], ldenied [2001]). The Fourth Department has similarly held that reaching a hand through a broken window is sufficient evidence of an entry into a dwelling (see People v Clarke, [1996],; see also People v Fraticelli, 172 AD2d 622, [1991]. Additionally, this Court has held that an enclosed porch qualifies as part of a dwelling for purposes of residential burglary (see People v Rivera, 301 AD2d 787, [2003]


Now, being that the elements of burglary are :
(1) the breaking and entering of a dwelling or place of business
(2) with the intent to commit a crime therein.
(3) It is not required to occur at night.

Of course to have burglary you will need intent, and you still must retreat into your home, but this does make burglary easier to prove, which in my layman's opinion has an effect on the rulling of Aiken that the intruder did no wrong at the doorway. Also, if there is burglary at the doorway and then the intruded follows you in, it would seem you are justified unless you are the aggressor. Its not much, but it is something.


I have to agree with Muevelo on the gray area being the intent of the intruder. If a case was actually brought by a prosecutor, in order to defend, one would have to show that either 1) the intruded had intent to commit some crime (robbery, assault etc) or 2) one had a reasonable fear of imminent deadly harm to himslef or someone else. (Goetz)

In theory this should not be so hard to prove, (say if the guy had a knife or already took something from your closet, etc) but I concede that in reality, I would not want to be in that type of a situation. Hence I will have to once again agree with muevelo. Don't do it unless you have no choice.

If I sound like I am contradicting myself, its becasue in my opinion, in the event of an incident, not all is lost. There is some hope, but on the other hand, I would not wish upon anyone to be in a situation where they would have to find out just how good their chances are.

Having said that using deadly force should ONLY be a last resort, once an intruder is inside your home and poses a threat, i am not sure I would wait and see what his intentions are. I would think that the intruded has made his decision when he broke in. No reason why a jury should not agree.

On a completely seperate note, I think Massad Ayoob's book is an excellent read on the topic of self deffense and home deffense. It covers various legal topics as well as prepares you for the thought process. Granted the book is a old, but I still think its worthwhile to hear it from a cop that has been in tough situations.

http://www.amazon.com/Gravest-Extreme-Firearm-Personal-Protection/dp/0936279001/ref=pd_sim_b_1

All of the above is nothing more than MHO and comments are welcome.

[Legal101]

Here is some more info.

Not sure if anyone saw this, but its a good read on Aiken.

http://www.stjohns.edu/media/3/cb3e003073d3497fa72bc55b6a82c3b7.pdf

It's too bad that people think this way, but its good to know anyway...


---------------------
Here is some info on Justification in general:

From: People v. Fermin, 828 N.Y.S.2d 546 (on appeal), this was a shooting case outside the home.

In order to establish a justification defense under Penal Law § 35.15(2), the evidence must show that a defendant reasonably believed that he or she was in imminent danger of being subjected to deadly physical force and that he or she had satisfied his or her duty to retreat or was under no such duty. Penal Law § 35.15(1), (2). The duty to retreat does not apply when one cannot retreat from the use of deadly physical force with complete safety. Penal Law § 35.15(2)(a).

The duty to retreat does not apply when one cannot retreat from the use of deadly physical force with complete safety (see Penal Law § 35.15[2][a]; People v Aiken, 4 N.Y.3d 324, 328, 828 N.E.2d 74, 795 N.Y.S.2d 158; People v Goetz, 68 N.Y.2d 96, 104, 497 N.E.2d 41, 506 N.Y.S.2d 18 n 4).

Can you believe they are still citing Goetz? I can not believe that crazy SOB still has an impact till this day?!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjF5ccIrP8Q

---------------------------------
In NY, Burglary is an important part of justification when inside your home:

Here is the statute regarding justification in a home when a burglary is being commited:

§ 35.15. Justification; use of physical force in defense of a person

1. A person may, subject to the provisions of subdivision two, use physical force upon another person when and to the extent he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to defend himself, herself or a third person from what he or she reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force by such other person, unless:

(a) The latter's conduct was provoked by the actor [fig 1] with intent to cause physical injury to another person; or

(b) The actor was the initial aggressor; except that in such case [fig 1] the use of physical force is nevertheless justifiable if [fig 2] the actor has withdrawn from the encounter and effectively communicated such withdrawal to such other person but the latter persists in continuing the incident by the use or threatened imminent use of unlawful physical force; or

(c) The physical force involved is the product of a combat by agreement not specifically authorized by law.

2. A person may not use deadly physical force upon another person under circumstances specified in subdivision one unless:

(a) [fig 1] The actor reasonably believes that such other person is using or about to use deadly physical force. Even in such case, however, the actor may not use deadly physical force if he or she knows that [fig 2] with complete personal safety [fig 3] , to oneself and others he or she may avoid the necessity of so doing by retreating; except that [fig 4] the actor is under no duty to retreat if he or she is:
(i) in his or her dwelling and not the initial aggressor; or
(ii) a police officer or peace officer or a person assisting a police officer or a peace officer at the latter's direction, acting pursuant to section 35.30; or

(b) He or she reasonably believes that such other person is committing or attempting to commit a kidnapping, forcible rape, forcible criminal sexual act or robbery; or

(c) He or she reasonably believes that such other person is committing or attempting to commit a burglary, and the circumstances are such that the use of deadly physical force is authorized by subdivision three of section 35.20.

Now look at subdivision 3 of 35.20:

§ 35.20. Justification; use of physical force in defense of premises and in defense of a person in the course of burglary

1. Any person may use physical force upon another person when he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to prevent or terminate what he or she reasonably believes to be the commission or attempted commission by such other person of a crime involving damage to premises. [fig 1] Such person may use any degree of physical force, other than deadly physical force, which he or she reasonably believes to be necessary for such purpose, and [fig 2] may use deadly physical force if he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to prevent or terminate the commission or attempted commission of arson.

2. A person in possession or control of any premises, or a person licensed or privileged to be thereon or therein, may use physical force upon another person when he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to prevent or terminate what he or she reasonably believes to be the commission or attempted commission by such other person of a criminal trespass upon such premises. [fig 1] Such person may use any degree of physical force, other than deadly physical force, which he or she reasonably believes to be necessary for such purpose, and [fig 2] may use deadly physical force in order to prevent or terminate the commission or attempted commission of arson, as prescribed in subdivision one, or in the course of a burglary or attempted burglary, as prescribed in subdivision three.

3. A person in possession or control of, or licensed or privileged to be in, a dwelling or an occupied building, who reasonably believes that another person is committing or attempting to commit a burglary of such dwelling or building, may use deadly physical force upon such other person when he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to prevent or terminate the commission or attempted commission of such burglary.

4. As used in this section, the following terms have the following meanings:

(a) The terms "premises," "building" and "dwelling" have the meanings prescribed in section 140.00;

(b) Persons "licensed or privileged" to be in buildings......


What one "reasonable beleives" when someone breaks into their home at 3am can not be THAT outrageous, but again, this is ALL THEORY.

[ironchef]

I know who is going to be part of my legal team if something were to ever go down :D

Thanks for the great info. Makes for interesting reading. Hope to God none of the above ever happens to anyone we know.

[Legal101]

I am glad you found it interesting. Please keep in mind, this is not legal advice, its just an opinion. I too truly hope noone will ever need it, but if you are ever in a situation, its not pretty, but it's not a complete dead end either.

Overall, I still agree with Muevelo that deadly force SHOULD ABSOLUTELY NOT be used, unless there is no other alternative. However, when someone breaks into your home at 3am, what alternatives are there?

Here is some more info on burglary:

What burlgary technically means in our state: If the building is a dwelling, burglary is entering with intent to commit ANY crime therein !!


Section 140.25 Burglary in the second degree

A person is guilty of burglary in the second degree when he knowingly enters or remains unlawfully in a building with intent to commit a crime therein, and when:

1. In effecting entry or while in the building or in immediate flight therefrom, he or another participant in the crime:

(a) Is armed with explosives or a deadly weapon; or

(b) Causes physical injury to any person who is not a participant in the crime; or

(c) Uses or threatens the immediate use of a dangerous instrument; or

(d) Displays what appears to be a pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun, machine gun or other firearm; or

2. The building is a dwelling.

Burglary in the second degree is a class C felony.

-----------------
If the building is a dwelling, he does not even need to be armed. (Although I am sure it helps)

The only problem is intent. If the guy was just a tresspasser, in NY that does not make him a burglar. You do not want to make a mistake and shoot the neighboor.

An intruded must have intent to comit a crime, (any crime). This will be infered from the surrounding circumstances (what he has on him, time of the night, etc). I would not want to be in a situation where I would have to argue this in court, even if 80%-90% of all cases never go to trial. Then again, I don't think guys who break into people's homes in the middle of the night look like girl scouts.

The line may not be a bright and clear one, but there is a line. Human life is too valuable to just blast away, and I beleive that those who use any violent force unjustifiably should be punished. The laws are there to detter all the trigger happy cowboys out there, which is understandable.

However, unlike what many people beleive, in my opinion NY does allow you to use your firearm to defend your loved ones in your own home just as long as you aren't shooting drunk neighboors that walked onto your property by mistake. The way I read NY law, if a guy breaks into your home at 3am, and you reasonably beleive either that (1)he is there to rob you or hurt someone, or (2) you simply fear for your life: You are under no duty to retreat, and you CAN use deadly force.

(Of course, this is all in theory) :)

http://th166.photobucket.com/albums/u85/thehpg/th_gif-2.gif

[MueveloNYC]

Good point - in the end, it will be up to you to show the court that you had no choice. Especially in the the most anti-gun sensitive city in the US (other than Washington DC), if you did shoot someone in your home, a lot of the burden would be on you to prove your innocence (in that you used deadly force to defend yourself). This is the main reason why many organizations have stress that it be only used in a last resort, and that evidence such as forced entry, signs of a struggle, intruder having a deadly weapon, surveillance footage, or physical signs of harm to oneself would show probable cause. Again this is not legal advice, but just facts that I have gathered over the years.

The NY Self-Defense Blog is a great reference as it sites outcomes and cases that are recent. It is there for you to make your own judgements on how courts and cases went regarding this fact. Always remember, if you draw your weapon in NYC, how will the court and jury see your actions after the fact? That will determine whether it was justified or not. Of course ending a human life is tragic, but should only be a last resort option. In other words, DO NOT shoot first ask questions later. If possible try to delay and force the intruder from entering, or force the intruder out.

Thanks for the insight Legal101. I will incorporate your findings to the FAQ later tonight.

[NYC_FA]

I live on the tenth floor of a residential building with no "out the window" fire escape, a doorman and an elevator man. If someone comes through my front door at 3am I have no "retreat" option. Jumping ten stories is not on my list of things to do! It also probably means either the doorman and elevator man are already dead or this was one sneaky bugler. My thoughts are I'm pretty well protected while sleeping but if the worst ever did happen I also feel like it would be pretty easy to prove retreat is just not an option. If my apartment door gets kicked in my trigger finger would be pretty itchy. Outside of my apartment the locked and unloaded gun is useless so I'll just crawl up into the fetal position and pretend it is not happening:20:

[MueveloNYC]

My building is pretty secure. We have 2 sets of wrought iron gates that guard a tunnel entrance into our courtyard, basically making it impenetrable without a key card to access it. Security cameras everywhere, full time live in super, residents hanging out in the courtyard, and 1 NYPD officer as a resident as well. However, someone did manage to burglarize an apartment, and one con man managed to con people out of money saying he was locked out of his apartment and would pay them back as soon as the locksmith gave him money. How did this happen? People let them in... Human factor is always the weakest point of any security operation.

[NYC_FA]

Oh boy oh boy oh boy...... That beautiful blue City of New York seal was in today's mail! There was a checklist of things I need to get before I can even call to make the appointment but it's all easy and expected stuff. I'm seriously excited as I know this is just about the end of the process. :2300000:

[MueveloNYC]

Congrats! Let us know when your baby is on there and let us know when to meet you at Westside!

[ironchef]

muwahahahahahaa! go get some! wooooohoooo! and see you at westside!!!

[Legal101]

Congrats NYC_FA. AS far as I can recall, my interview went very smooth and the process was quick and painless. The detective told me he was surprised that I knew the law. He said when he asks some people questions, they get nervous and say stupid things like "they would never use it even to defend a loved one." I told him that if I said that, I would be lying.

Muevelo, I once again agree with what you said about "evidence such as forced entry, signs of a struggle, intruder having a deadly weapon (any weapon is deadly once used in a certain manner), or physical signs of harm to oneself would show probable cause". I don't want to discuss this type of stuff on a forum, but most people should be able to figure this kind of stuff out on their own. I also heard "make sure you drag him inside after" and all kinds of other B.S. And again, it all comes down to the same thing, if you have a choice, don't do it. If you don't have a choice, blast away. If you are not sure, read Massad Ayoob's book and other stuff and be rpepared to make that dicision on the spot.

Learn what you can and can not do with a gun. There are so many factors, f/e the prosecutors consider as evidence if you had you hammer cocked (SA/DA) etc. Also, some people dont maintain their guns properly, dont practice enough and have a better chance of shooting themselves in the leg than hitting an assailant. They say if the attacker is less than 15-20 feet away from you, you won't have enough time to draw etc. Having a gun is a big responsibility and one needs to be ready for hte grave extreme even if its something that will hopefully never happen.

In an appartment building, which is not as safe as people think, you also have the added responsibilty to make sure that those magnum rounds don't go through a wall and hurt an innocent bystander. That would not be cool.

Biggest risks are fire escapes, cheap locks and the stupidity of your neighbours. On the other hand, lets be realistic, who needs us and our old televisions and cassette decks. :) Lets stick to range practice!

[MueveloNYC]

I agree. I am just giving examples, but not condoning someone trying to manufacture a scene. Suggestions like dragging someone in are obviously illegal and could land you in bigger trouble. In the end, what I'm suggesting is that everyone think before they pull the trigger - as in NYC almost every case where a gun was used in self defense usually always goes to a jury/court to determine if it was justified self-defense.

[WicKeDMD]

Hi guys,

I'm a new member on this forum. I'd just like to start off by saying that I've found this thread to be incredibly helpful, it has answered many of my questions regarding the process of applying for a NYC handgun permit. Thank you for this! With that said, I was wondering if you guys could shed some additional light on the interview process. I know that many of the questions they ask are straightforward, however I've also been told that they attempt to trip people up on some seemingly easy questions. I was wondering if you could tell me about some of the questions you were asked throughout the process. Any recommendations you might have in the event you had to go through the entire interview over again, etc... Anything specific would be very helpful.

Thanks again for the incredibly informative thread!

[ironchef]

I think with all interviews, its not only the quality and quantity in your answers, but also your demeanor. I can't recall any of the questions they asked me. This probably attributed to the fact that you mentioned, they are pretty straight forward. Be honest and direct in your answers. Obviously, don't dance around a subject (especially on arrests) and don't be a smart alec either. There are several yes/no questions and just answer accordingly. Don't open yourself up to anything that wasn't asked and you should be okay. Be polite and courteous, but don't suck up either.

Take this interview like a job interview, show up neatly dress if possible. Look like a bum and you'll get treated like one. Sorry if everything sounds a bit harsh, but when it comes to the NYPD, you don't want to mess around and screw up your chances.

[MueveloNYC]

Yup exactly. The purpose is to mainly engage the person as the last step to make sure they're not crazy, mental, or just acting very strangely. This way NYPD can say they did an in-person check to see if the person was ok before issuing the license. This is why it's the very last step.

I guess the argument could be made that the VA Tech killer, Sung Wui Cho, would have probably not have passed the interview, as everyone who encountered him in person described him as very odd, dark, and peculiar. He probably would have given strange answers or have acted very strangely during the interview process. Also, there's a chance he could've been a good actor and the point would've been moot and he could've gotten a license too. But again this is pure speculation, but you get the idea... It's a last filter to make sure someone's personality or intentions are not odd or off...

[Legal101]

Well, first of all, we all signed a statement saying that we will not disclose the actual questions we were asked, so we can't help there....

But, I can tell you that most of the questions were the same as the ones on the application, the only difference being that the officer is siting accross the desk and staring right at you.

So I agree with the previous post. Be straight forward and honest. If you ar enot a psycho, should not e a problem. And if you are, you should not have a firearm.

I am not sure if the Vtech cases could have been prevented if the person was interviewed but it is certainly possible as these detectives are trained to spot problems.

[MueveloNYC]

True true... That's not my view, which is why I say that the argument could be made (playing devil's advocate here to portray both sides of the argument as well as illustrate where the rationale behind the in-person interview was supposed to do)

[JDSX]

First and foremost, thank you so very much to Muevelo for this compilation. Here in NYC you can ask two people and get three different answers as to what's allowed. I applied for my handgun license February 07 and got it August 07 but I also used a specialist by the name of Larry Goodson (http://www.licenseservices.com) to guide and prepare me. I strongly recommend using his services as he's been a constant resource to this day; best consultant I've ever used.

I haven't tried going beyond the local gun range with it for fear of SWAT teams descending on me. Last week I applied for my shotgun/rifle license and hope to have it within a few months. I have a hunter education course slated for the second week of September and now I know to get that hunter authorization card so I can bring my handgun with me.

I'm hoping to travel for hunting within the US and was invited to Texas this winter to kill some hogs. According to my understanding of what I just read here, I can take my handgun with me? I thought that wasn't allowed? This is really good news.

[WicKeDMD]

Thank you for all the replies. This forum has been a big help. Having finally dealt with all the paperwork involved, I submitted my NYC application on July 30th. I made sure to triple check everything I submitted and will be waiting patiently from hereon. I also went ahead and applied for the non-resident Florida CCW license as was suggested.

Having said that, I have a quick question regarding the legality of the non-resident florida ccw license (in combination with the NYC premise residence license). Assuming one travels to PA with their firearm, would they be legally allowed to carry it on them in a concealed fashion given that they have a non-resident florida ccw license? Or must you follow the protocol of safe-transport even when in PA given that NYC is where the firearm is registered?

Thanks again for the continued support!

[JDSX]

Thank you for all the replies. This forum has been a big help. Having finally dealt with all the paperwork involved, I submitted my NYC application on July 30th. I made sure to triple check everything I submitted and will be waiting patiently from hereon. I also went ahead and applied for the non-resident Florida CCW license as was suggested.

Having said that, I have a quick question regarding the legality of the non-resident florida ccw license (in combination with the NYC premise residence license). Assuming one travels to PA with their firearm, would they be legally allowed to carry it on them in a concealed fashion given that they have a non-resident florida ccw license? Or must you follow the protocol of safe-transport even when in PA given that NYC is where the firearm is registered?

Thanks again for the continued support!
What'd you use as certification for the FL CCW? I'm planning to submit the hunter safety course.

[WicKeDMD]

I completed a handgun safety and concealed carry class given by a company called Personal Defense Solutions in Pennsylvania. The class was conducted by Dr. Bruce Eimer, an NRA certified instructor and clinical psychologist.

[MueveloNYC]

Congrats!

For the FL in PA, you have to transport the firearm under safe passage rules (unloaded, locked in a case, trigger locked for NYC rules) ammunition in a seperate container and not on your person, and leave the case in your trunk. When travelling through NJ make sure you do not have any hollowpoint ammunition on you. The laws of posession are a bit hairy and the proof of burden with be on you. Once you get to PA, you can carry concealed on your person. When leaving PA, just before you hit the border (while inside PA), unload, and lock your firearm just as stated above. You may not travel CCW on your person at all from state to state unless that FL CCW is honored in both states (ie: Virginia and North Carolina). You may not carry on your person until you reach a state that the license is honored in. Violation of this law varies from state to state, but in most states it is considered illegal weapons posession and concealment of a deadly weapon, both are felonies in NJ and NY/NYC.

Also once you get your FL CCW, you can file for your CT CCW as well with the Florida one.

JDSX, you might want to call Florida and ask if that's acceptable. I think on the app it says you need a letter stating specifically you know how to handle a pistol, not necessarily something covered in a hunters course.

As for taking the pistol out of state, make sure you get the green hunting endorsement card from 1PP. I'm not too famliiar with Texas gun laws, but with the Florida CCW, I know I'm covered as it is honored there. You can check IRAILA.org and check their summary of texas gun law.

BTW which range you go to? Westside?

[RKBA]

Hi MueveloNYC and everyone -

First, let me please add my thanks (and compliments) for this web forum section and FAQ. There are many other places on the internet for persons from other states and/or regions, but this is the only one of any substance that is focused on our little 5 boros. I must have read through the NYC FAQ two or three times now, in its entirety, and I still come away with something helpful each time. Some of the information in the FAQ is unique to this site, based on my personal internet searches. It's really great, so thanks to MueveloNYC and to all those contributing.

By way of background, I had one of the "old" NYC target pistol licenses back in the day, but sold all of my handguns and let it expire (in that order, of course). I have a valid NYC rifle & shotgun permit, but now I'm getting back in with handguns. I submitted my application (premises - residence) almost 6 months ago, and just recently had my interview at room 110 -- a new experience for me (but it seemed to go fine). The investigator told me that my file would be going to the captain as soon as I provided one final acknowledgment form (which I have since submitted), but that it might be another month or even two before I receive notification that my license is ready for pickup. So, I'm close....

Now, some questions which I will organize by topic:

1. Regarding the NYS "hunting endorsement card": do I request that at the time I pick up my license? Will they issue it on the spot? Do I need to bring proof of having completed a NYS-approved hunter safety course? Does the hunting endorsement card expire, or is it perpetual? If there is a course requirement, is there also a periodic re-certification or re-examination requirement? Is the hunting endorsement card only valid during "hunting season"?

1a. Has anyone ever challenged NYC's assertion that its handgun licenses are not valid outside of NYC, despite NY state law that directly contradicts this assertion? (I am not volunteering to be the test case - just wondering)

2. Regarding the FL non-resident CCW license: is there a classroom/range/other educational requirement? If so, is it Florida-specific with regard to instructor/curriculum, as is the case (for example) with Utah's non-resident CCW license? I recently took the NRA Basic Pistol course (approx. 8 hours, including live range firing) from a Massachusetts-approved NRA instructor - would this suffice for Florida? Given that my NYC premises - residence license will probably be stamped "RESTRICTED - NOT FOR CARRY" like my old NYC target licenses, will FL grant a license for greater freedom (that is, for CCW) in FL, where I would be a non-resident, than I will have via my resident NYC license in NY (premises only, plus secured travel to range)?

3. Are there any readers with NYC residence premises licenses who have obtained the Massachusetts non-resident LTC? If so, was the LTC an "A" or a "B", and were there any restrictions placed on the license? Repeating a Florida question: given that my NYC premises - residence permit will probably be stamped "RESTRICTED - NOT FOR CARRY", will MA grant a license for greater freedom (that is, for CCW) in MA, where I would be a non-resident, than I will have on my NYC premises-residence license in NY?

4. What about the Utah non-resident CCW license? Is it "superior" to the Florida CCW license (whatever that might mean)? If one goes to the trouble to obtain one of the two, should that person just go ahead and get the other one as well, or is that overdoing it?

Thanks again for the great board, and thanks for helping me (and everyone else) with these questions.

[RKBA]

Legal101 - I was just looking at your post from 7/17/08:


Well, first of all, we all signed a statement saying that we will not disclose the actual questions we were asked, so we can't help there....


As I wrote in my LONG first post above, I just recently had my interview, but I don't remember signing any kind of non-disclosure agreement. I don't remember being asked to sign anything -- am I just forgetting? Was there a non-disclosure clause on the interview form used by the investigator? Was I supposed to sign that form? Thanks.

[MueveloNYC]

Hey no problem, we're all family here. We have to make things easier for people since the law is so convoluted as we can see. It's not black and white like other states, and one could easily get in trouble unless they really knew the law! The FAQ serves as a guide to help people from making "dumb" mistakes (at least in terms of how NYC sees it).


1. Regarding the NYS "hunting endorsement card": do I request that at the time I pick up my license? Will they issue it on the spot? Do I need to bring proof of having completed a NYS-approved hunter safety course? Does the hunting endorsement card expire, or is it perpetual? If there is a course requirement, is there also a periodic re-certification or re-examination requirement? Is the hunting endorsement card only valid during "hunting season"?

You request it as soon as you pick up your license. They will give it to you on the spot. Keep requesting a new one when you renew as it's a flimsy piece of paper. The card actually states that you can transport the firearm outside of NYC with a valid residence license. No restriction during "hunting season."


1a. Has anyone ever challenged NYC's assertion that its handgun licenses are not valid outside of NYC, despite NY state law that directly contradicts this assertion? (I am not volunteering to be the test case - just wondering)

No one has since technically it's unenforcable (NYPD would have to arrest you outside of NYC, which is out of their jurisdiction). However, a NY State trooper could give you a hard time about it by detaining you or delaying you. This is why NYSRPA and other groups have suggested that all NYC folks get the hunting endorsement card since that will give you more legitimacy.


2. Regarding the FL non-resident CCW license: is there a classroom/range/other educational requirement? If so, is it Florida-specific with regard to instructor/curriculum, as is the case (for example) with Utah's non-resident CCW license? I recently took the NRA Basic Pistol course (approx. 8 hours, including live range firing) from a Massachusetts-approved NRA instructor - would this suffice for Florida? Given that my NYC premises - residence license will probably be stamped "RESTRICTED - NOT FOR CARRY" like my old NYC target licenses, will FL grant a license for greater freedom (that is, for CCW) in FL, where I would be a non-resident, than I will have via my resident NYC license in NY (premises only, plus secured travel to range)?

Florida is a shall issue state. You do not need a CCW for your own state to get one. The level of cert isn't like Utah (where you need Utah licensed training). In fact an affidavit by a certified handgun instructor (NRA, FBI, LE, etc) stating that they have observed you fire a pistol X rounds at X yards with the results and you have demonstrated a capacity of handling firearms is enough for Florida. Essentially Florida requests that someone who's certified vouch that you know gun safety and can fire your firearm. While NYC premise license restricts you to your home/range only, if you are in a state where FL CCW is honored (there's about 28 states, including VA, PA, OH, among others), you have full concealed carry ability in those states that honor Florida CCW (note that some states like Michigan will not honor Florida non-resident). CT is different in that their laws state that you need to have a CCW license to get their non-resident CCW. This means that you need a CCW license (not necessarily from your home state). This has gone to court in 2005 (Packing.org reported that a NY'er was denied since they did not CCW for NYC, but applied with a Florida CCW), and overturned the denial. I too have gotten my CT CCW using my Florida CCW, it was no problem. Again CT will also ask for an affidavit from a certified NRA/FBI instructor.


3. Are there any readers with NYC residence premises licenses who have obtained the Massachusetts non-resident LTC? If so, was the LTC an "A" or a "B", and were there any restrictions placed on the license? Repeating a Florida question: given that my NYC premises - residence permit will probably be stamped "RESTRICTED - NOT FOR CARRY", will MA grant a license for greater freedom (that is, for CCW) in MA, where I would be a non-resident, than I will have on my NYC premises-residence license in NY?

Most likely doubtful as MA is hard to get CCW, and that their laws actually state that you have to be issued a CCW from your home state (just like Michigan does)


4. What about the Utah non-resident CCW license? Is it "superior" to the Florida CCW license (whatever that might mean)? If one goes to the trouble to obtain one of the two, should that person just go ahead and get the other one as well, or is that overdoing it?

Utah you gain Washington (which FL doesn't have), but you do lose one of the states that FL covers (which I don't recall which one at the moment). Utah is a little more annoying since you have to find a certified UTAH CCW class to get the license, and in NY/NJ there aren't any! If you really want Washington State, it's a shall issue state, but you have to apply in person (plus it's cheap). No documentation needed other than your license and fingerprint you on the spot. (plus Washington CCW is cheaper than Utah)

Hope this helps!

[RKBA]

Great stuff - thanks very much!


It's not black and white like other states, and one could easily get in trouble unless they really knew the law! The FAQ serves as a guide to help people from making "dumb" mistakes (at least in terms of how NYC sees it).

You can say that again! Also, very good to remind me and all other readers that this is just an internet forum, and not legal advice.

On the hunting endorsement card - got it - will do.

On the conflict between NYC assertion and NY state law re. license validity - another "aha moment"; thanks for the clarity.

On FL non-resident CCW license - sounds like that's the one to get, rather than Utah, unless one needs WA (which I don't). Also, helpful info on CT non-resident CCW.

On MA non-resident LTC & CCW:

Most likely doubtful as MA is hard to get CCW, and that their laws actually state that you have to be issued a CCW from your home state (just like Michigan does)

I've done a bunch of research on this one, and I'm not sure that MA (as a whole) is harder or easier than NY (as a whole), for residents. [That said, they are both "may issue" regimes with varying levels of unfriendliness.] Actually, the licensing regimes appear similar - each has at least one major city (NYC & Boston come to mind) with de jure or de facto bans on CCW for civilians, with town-by-town or county-by-county variables governing the issuance of, and restrictions on, CCWs outside of the city. For non-residents, though, I had missed that part of MA law requiring home CCW handgun licensing, so I'll go back and re-check. I have the MA non-resident LTC application in hand, and I know that they require a copy of your home handgun license, but I had also read (online, admittedly) that non-residents were receiving their MA LTC-A licenses "without restrictions" (the old ALP - all lawful purposes) despite restrictions on their home state licenses. I guess it will come down to how the MA state police view the restrictions inherent to NYC premises-residence licenses.


Hope this helps!
It sure does! Again - what a great service to all of us...many thanks.

[JDSX]

Congrats!

For the FL in PA, you have to transport the firearm under safe passage rules (unloaded, locked in a case, trigger locked for NYC rules) ammunition in a seperate container and not on your person, and leave the case in your trunk. When travelling through NJ make sure you do not have any hollowpoint ammunition on you. The laws of posession are a bit hairy and the proof of burden with be on you. Once you get to PA, you can carry concealed on your person. When leaving PA, just before you hit the border (while inside PA), unload, and lock your firearm just as stated above. You may not travel CCW on your person at all from state to state unless that FL CCW is honored in both states (ie: Virginia and North Carolina). You may not carry on your person until you reach a state that the license is honored in. Violation of this law varies from state to state, but in most states it is considered illegal weapons posession and concealment of a deadly weapon, both are felonies in NJ and NY/NYC.

Also once you get your FL CCW, you can file for your CT CCW as well with the Florida one.

JDSX, you might want to call Florida and ask if that's acceptable. I think on the app it says you need a letter stating specifically you know how to handle a pistol, not necessarily something covered in a hunters course.

As for taking the pistol out of state, make sure you get the green hunting endorsement card from 1PP. I'm not too famliiar with Texas gun laws, but with the Florida CCW, I know I'm covered as it is honored there. You can check IRAILA.org and check their summary of texas gun law.

BTW which range you go to? Westside?
Thanks. Bay Ridge Rod & Gun Club in Brooklyn.

[RKBA]

OK - so here's a new question relating to rifles, shotguns and the NYC Rifle & Shotgun permit ("NYCRSP") that has been bugging me. Some recitations/assumptions first:

Despite the sunset/expiration of the 1994 federal assault weapons ban ("AWB") several years ago, NYC still has in effect a 1-factor AWB (see the NYC administrative code at http://www.nysrpa.org/files/nyc-admincode.pdf), specifically at § 10-303.1 (Prohibition of the possession or disposition of assault weapons). This NYC AWB is permanent.

If I understand it correctly, the NYC AWB prohibits the sale or possession of AR- and AK-type rifles, due to their pistol grips, within NYC. However, I also believe there is a prohibition on the possession and sale of shotguns with magazine capacities >5 within NYC (I don't know the source of this prohibition). I'm not sure, but I also think that an M1A (e.g., http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?model=13) might also be prohibited as an AW within NYC; again I don't know the citation.

Most non-NYC jurisdictions (both within NY state and without) do not require a license or permit for the purchase of rifles and shotguns, including rifles and shotguns previously restricted under the now-expired federal AWB.

Furthermore, some non-NYC jurisdictions which still have 2-factor AWBs in effect (usually vestiges of the 1994 federal AWB) and/or tiered licensing regimes for "large capacity" weapons (e.g., Massachusetts) nevertheless permit the sale and possession of "less evil looking" rifles (e.g., AR without a flash hider) -- what used to be called "post-ban" configuration.


So, with that as the background, the generic question:

May a NYCRSP holder (by definition a NYC resident), acting within NY state but wholly outside of NYC, lawfully purchase and/or possess a rifle or shotgun that would otherwise be determined to be a prohibited rifle or shotgun under the NYC AWB, so long as such rifle or shotgun never enters NYC?

More specifically, if a NYCRSP holder has a weekend/vacation property "upstate" (not in NYC), may such person lawfully acquire and possess (i) an AR- or AK-style rifle and/or (ii) a shotgun with >5 magazine capacity, storing such long gun at such "upstate" location? Assume that any such purchase is made in compliance with the rifle and shotgun laws/provisions (state, county and/or city/town/village) in effect for permanent residents of such "upstate" region.

Follow-ups for extra credit:

1. Would the NYCRSP holder file a PD 641-121 Disposition Report - Registration Certificate with the NYPD Rifle/Shotgun section for the subject rifle or shotgun, or would the purchase/possession/disposition of the subject rifle or shotgun be "outside of NYC's jurisdiction"?

2. If the purchase of the subject rifle or shotgun was made from an FFL, would the NYCRSP holder put his or her NYC address on the BATF 4473 (where possession of the subject rifle or shotgun is prohibited by law)?

3. If the purchase of the subject rifle or shotgun was made face-to-face (lawfully, of course), but without a requirement for a 4473, would there be any notification or registration requirement?

4. What if the facts changed somewhat, and the subject rifle or shotgun was possessed (as always, lawfully) at a vacation/weekend residence outside of NY state?

Thanks (again) for the thoughtful help!

[MueveloNYC]

You're pretty much on the dot on this one. NY State outside of NYC are allowed to have pre-ban high cap mags, Bushmaster style AR-15's, and almost any style shotgun without a folding stock. Benelli's Super 90's for example are completely legal outside of NYC but are not legal in NYC because of the 2 factor rule. There's still a grey area about the switchable pump/semi though still if you remove the pistol grip for a traditional rifle style.

If you have an "update" vacation home, it's obviously not your primary residence, and thus you cannot register guns at that location. All your guns would be under your NYC license and therefore must be NYC compliant. You cannot file for NY licenses in both residences. While they don't have to have a license for longbarrels, they're still registered in the state of NY, and thus you cannot purchase a firearm for your summer home. Also since NY State shares this database statewide between municipalities, NYPD would immediately see a discrepancy. Also technically you can only have guns at your primary residence (meaning that your firearms have to move when you move back to your main home after you're done with hunting... you can't leave them there) - this relates back to your primary residence and that the guns are registered to your name. NYPD could do an audit and if your guns are missing, you'd now be arrested for a felony charge. (which if found guilty you'd lose your right to own a gun forever)

I'll basically tell you what I tell everyone else here. The more complicated you build a scenario, the more likely it is to be pushing the liklihood of it being illegal. NYC laws are pretty strict, and after almost 100 years under Sullivan law (1911), that's plenty of time to wrap up every loophole...

A possible scenario: get a vacation spot in the woods in PA (class III, shall issue state), or CT (almost shall issue, and class III with restrictions). Note this is not legal advice nor suggestion to avoid NY state gun laws. Please always adhere to NYC gun laws when in doubt.

[RKBA]

Thanks for the quick response. A few follow-ups to beat this horse to death, if I may (please tell me to knock it off if I'm wasting everyone's time):


NY State outside of NYC are allowed to have pre-ban high cap mags... [SNIP] ...completely legal outside of NYC but are not legal in NYC because of the 2 factor rule.
I thought/was hoping this was going to be another one of the "outside their jurisdiction"-type answers...sadly, it seems not to be the case.


If you have an "upstate" vacation home, it's obviously not your primary residence, and thus you cannot register guns at that location.
Makes sense...is there a NY state registration requirement for rifles and shotguns outside of NYC, Westchester (I presume) and certain other "major cities"/"major counties"? I went to college "upstate", admittedly many decades ago, but I don't recall any registration scheme for long guns "up there" -- is this something "new" (relatively speaking)?


All your guns would be under your NYC license and therefore must be NYC compliant.
I guess that's the crux of the question. If a long gun is lawfully possessed outside of NYC and never enters NYC, is the long gun ever actually possessed "under" the holder's NYCRSP, and does the NYC AWB apply? (thought example: NYCRSP holder receives a prohibited AW from the estate of a decedent in, say, Florida or Arizona or Vermont (if none of these work, pick another state with neither long gun licenses or registration), and leaves it at the permit holder's weekend home in that state.)

If I've understood what you've written correctly, a long gun cannot be lawfully possessed, even wholly outside NYC, by a NYCRSP holder without being properly registered with NYPD under the permit holder's NYCRSP. But doesn't this question, and the related question of the applicability of the NYCAWB outside of the five boros, fall under the same heading as the NYC assertion that it's pistol licenses are not valid elsewhere in NY state? That is, since NYC doesn't "have jurisdiction" outside of the 5 boros, wouldn't it be the case that its laws & administrative code don't have any force on activities taking place wholly beyond those boundaries?


You cannot file for NY licenses in both residences.
Within NY state, yes, one could only have one legal residence -- I get that 100%. My question, however, related to the part(s) of NY state where there are no long gun licenses, and where such long guns are not registered...is there no such place? Also, I seem to remember something in the NYCRSP instructions that talked about when a permitee needed to file a PD 641-121 disposition report/registration certificate - that the requirement was keyed to something like "within 72 hours after bringing the rifle or shotgun into NYC" (as opposed to "within x hours of the moment of purchase"). I'll go back and check, but if my recollection is correct, wouldn't this imply that the NYCRSP anticipated lawful long gun possession outside of the 5 boros by a NYCRSP holder?


While they don't have to have a license for longbarrels, they're still registered in the state of NY, and thus you cannot purchase a firearm for your summer home.
Again, I wasn't aware of a NY state long gun registration scheme. When did that come in? Is there a relevant section of the NY state codes that you could provide?


Also technically you can only have guns at your primary residence (meaning that your firearms have to move when you move back to your main home after you're done with hunting... you can't leave them there) - this relates back to your primary residence and that the guns are registered to your name.
Hmmm...now this is one that is really news to me. Are you referring to long guns possessed by a NYC resident pursuant to a NYCRSP, or making a statement with broader applicability? I have known more than a few people who maintain "upstate" or out-of-state weekend or vacation homes where they keep some of their long guns. Not NYC residents or even NY state residents, by the way, but at least one NY state resident with two residences in the state (this is going back many years).


I'll basically tell you what I tell everyone else here. The more complicated you build a scenario, the more likely it is to be pushing the liklihood of it being illegal. NYC laws are pretty strict, and after almost 100 years under Sullivan law (1911), that's plenty of time to wrap up every loophole...
Got it and agree. As I wrote before, this is a web forum, not legal advice and should not be relied upon as such by anyone. If you really want to do something that isn't plain vanilla, find a knowledgeable lawyer, pay them for their time, and get appropriate legal advice before the fact.


A possible scenario: get a vacation spot in the woods in PA (class III, shall issue state), or CT (almost shall issue, and class III with restrictions).
The interstate dimension adds an almost bewildering array of complexity to the questions at hand. I've studied this one a bit, too, and it presents a number of new issues, whether one is talking about handguns or long guns. The whole question of licensing vs. residency is a complicated one, particularly with some states refusing to issue non-resident licenses. For a bit of irony, see the confusion brought to the equation by the BATFE themselves here in their FAQs on "residency": http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b11. See the answers to B11 and B12, and (if you're really bored), check the actual CFR at http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2001/aprqtr/pdf/27cfr178.11.pdf at the top of page 9 of the PDF for the definition of state of residence.


Note this is not legal advice nor suggestion to avoid NY state gun laws. Please always adhere to NYC gun laws when in doubt.
Again, appreciate the warnings. As I've written before, I have exactly ZERO interest in becoming a test case for any of this.

(ON EDIT) Wow - this is becoming incredibly detailed! I'm really sorry to waste so much ink (electrons?) on this with everyone, but my mind keeps turning these issues over and over. Thanks to MueveloNYC (and anyone else) for reading all the way through.

[MueveloNYC]

The only main issue is that unfortunately Sullivan Act gave NYC higher jurisdiction powers than NY State, and thus anything NYC says would fall under higher priority over BATFE, State, then City (assuming NYC's law is the most restrictive). When you do purchase a firearm, the FFL does take down your information as well as the BATFE form. If NYC were to audit the BATFE records (as Bl00mberg has done to many gun stores), and your name came up, NYPD would come knocking asking where those guns are.

At this point I no longer feel comfortable offering my take on the subject and would offer you to contact the NYSRPA.org who could probably better answer your question.

[NYC_FA]

Ut ohh.....

I purchased a shotgun many years ago while living in NYS but not NYC. It was a NYS legal shotgun but not a NYC legal gun. When I moved to NYC I gave it to my brother-in-law (who lives in NYS not NYC).

I have now applied for a NYC permit..... Is this shotgun going to show up on some sort of registry? Is the NYPD going to stop by my apartment all of a sudden asking what happened to it?

I didn't have to register it originally and I didn't need a permit to buy it so I didn't think giving it to my brother-in-law required any sort of official filing... Was I wrong? Is it possible that the dealer I bought the gun from registered it on some sort of registry that the NYPD is going to check? I really hope not.

[RKBA]

Thanks again for trying to wade through the tangled mass of spaghetti with me!


At this point I no longer feel comfortable offering my take on the subject and would offer you to contact the NYSRPA.org who could probably better answer your question.
I'm with you on this one - thanks for trying to reason through it. As a long-time NYSRPA member (isn't everyone?!), they can often provide helpful information and summaries, although they can't give legal advice, and probably wouldn't, even to a member. For anyone whose circumstances fit or approximated my scenarios above, it would appear prudent for such person to consult a knowledgeable and experienced attorney who is familiar with NY and NYC firearms laws (as well as Federal laws and regs) BEFORE taking any of these actions. I know I would!

Thanks again!

[MueveloNYC]

NYC_FA, if it was that long ago, probably not likely since I think the statues back then only required 7 years to hold the paperwork. Now that paper these days is digitized so it's held indefinitely. Also what you did was legally correct. Before moving to NYC you transferred it to a NYS resident who could own it, prior to becoming a NYC license holder.

RKBA, the only other option would be to consult a firearms lawyer and ask. If you call NYPD I can already tell you their default answer: no. LOL

[Lion]

IMO I thnk that you could purchase a long gun in NYS (out of the city) and keep it at your upstate residence. I believe the NYC Rifle/shotgun permit is only for possission in NYC, if you want to possess at a different location I think you can. The code states (Section 10-305 1m.):

"Any resident of the city of New York acquiring a rifle or shotgun outside the city of New York shall within seventy-two hours after bringing such weapon into the city make application for a rifle and shotgun permit, if such person does not already possess such permit, and for a certificate of registration.
Pending the issuance of such permit and/or certificate of registration such resident shall deposit such weapon with a designated officer, at the police precinct in which such person resides, who shall issue a receipt therefor and said weapon shall be retained at the precinct until the resident shall produce the proper permit and registration certificate. This exemption shall not apply to assault weapons."

I believe this means you need to register your longguns only if you wish to have them in NYC.

I believe this is different that the handgun laws where you must apply for a permit in your county of primary residence.

What do you think? (again, this is only my opinion as I read the above)

[RKBA]

Yes, Lion, that was the section I was trying to remember -- thanks very much for digging it up.

That language -- which provides an exemption to the NYC permit and registration requirements for non-NYC acquisitions of long guns (other than NYC AWBs) for a period "within seventy-two hours after bringing such weapon into the city" [emphasis mine] -- is what caused me to wonder if it might be possible for NYCRSP holders to lawfully purchase and possess long guns outside of the five boros that were not NYC AWB compliant, so long as such long guns were never brought "into the city" (to mimic the casual phrasing of the NYC admin. code).

I am not a lawyer, and I don't play one on TV (or on web forums), but it does seem as though the scenario in question would be possible, and that the laws in question may indeed contemplate exactly this scenario. It would be great if someone on this board could chime in with "yes, I've done it" or "no, it doesn't work because of x (or y or z)" or "I spoke to lawyer x, and s/he said y". Anyone? Bueller?

For me personally, the question is moot, as I don't currently have an "upstate" weekend/vacation home. That said, I would definitely want to consult with a knowledgeable attorney for my own benefit before undertaking any such action, and would again recommend the same to anyone reading this.

Oh, and to MueveloNYC's earlier comment about asking the NYPD -- that does indeed prompt one to LOL! The answer would almost certainly be "no", but (perhaps more importantly) if it was anything else, would you feel comfortable relying on what you heard over the phone? NFW.

[NYC_FA]

A close friend of mine is an NYPD Detective. A while ago I asked him some questions as to whats legal and how complicated the laws are. His response was to say "honestly, I don't know 90% of the gun laws and neither do any of the other officers". Specifically we were talking about the limit to the number a rounds you may own at any one time. I was asking about getting stopped on my way to the range with everything the way it was supposed to be but a box of 100 rounds (this was 100% hypothetical, it never happened!). He again reiterated, "none of us have any idea what the laws are, they are just to vast and complicated." We laughed and finished our beers but it made me realize that there are no accurate answers to questions when it comes to NYC gun laws. They don't seem to know at the licensing office, the DAs office or the police.... So good luck and try not to go to jail! :8:

[MueveloNYC]

There's no law on the amount of ammo you can transport or be in posession of. The only rule is from FDNY firecodes which state that you cannot have more than 200 rounds in your home. (For NYC and 5 boroughs that is)

[MueveloNYC]

A close friend of mine is an NYPD Detective. A while ago I asked him some questions as to whats legal and how complicated the laws are. His response was to say "honestly, I don't know 90% of the gun laws and neither do any of the other officers". Specifically we were talking about the limit to the number a rounds you may own at any one time. I was asking about getting stopped on my way to the range with everything the way it was supposed to be but a box of 100 rounds (this was 100% hypothetical, it never happened!). He again reiterated, "none of us have any idea what the laws are, they are just to vast and complicated." We laughed and finished our beers but it made me realize that there are no accurate answers to questions when it comes to NYC gun laws. They don't seem to know at the licensing office, the DAs office or the police.... So good luck and try not to go to jail! :8:

Actually that's also the reason why I have copies of local gun laws printed and filed away in my car glovebox to states that I travel through if I am transporting guns or plan on shooting in that state.

[Lion]

Yes, Lion, that was the section I was trying to remember -- thanks very much for digging it up.

That language -- which provides an exemption to the NYC permit and registration requirements for non-NYC acquisitions of long guns (other than NYC AWBs) for a period "within seventy-two hours after bringing such weapon into the city" [emphasis mine] -- is what caused me to wonder if it might be possible for NYCRSP holders to lawfully purchase and possess long guns outside of the five boros that were not NYC AWB compliant, so long as such long guns were never brought "into the city" (to mimic the casual phrasing of the NYC admin. code).

I am not a lawyer, and I don't play one on TV (or on web forums), but it does seem as though the scenario in question would be possible, and that the laws in question may indeed contemplate exactly this scenario. It would be great if someone on this board could chime in with "yes, I've done it" or "no, it doesn't work because of x (or y or z)" or "I spoke to lawyer x, and s/he said y". Anyone? Bueller?

For me personally, the question is moot, as I don't currently have an "upstate" weekend/vacation home. That said, I would definitely want to consult with a knowledgeable attorney for my own benefit before undertaking any such action, and would again recommend the same to anyone reading this.

Oh, and to MueveloNYC's earlier comment about asking the NYPD -- that does indeed prompt one to LOL! The answer would almost certainly be "no", but (perhaps more importantly) if it was anything else, would you feel comfortable relying on what you heard over the phone? NFW.


Here it is in black and white from the NYPD website permit instructions:

(f) If the permit holder has a gun stored in a residence outside of New York City and wishes
to register it in New York City, he or she must submit a notarized letter listing the make,
model and serial number of the gun and the address where it was stored. The letter must
also indicate how the firearm was originally obtained. The permit holder must also
complete a registration form and submit it.

To me this means your fine purchasing outside of NYC and storing outside of NYC.

[MueveloNYC]

Interesting, good find! Ok time to add this to the FAQ... Do you have the link to this quote so I can directly reference it?

[RKBA]

Once again Lion comes through; thanks. I have an older version of the subject document in hard copy, but didn't know that it was posted online. The quote comes from a PDF of the NYCRSP application instructions and related documents, which are posted by the NYPD (as of 8/08) here: http://home2.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/permits/rifle_licensing_information.shtml

I can't seem to get the embedded link to work for me, but the page in question is on the NYPD website under "Permits" at this address: "http://home2.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/permits/rifle_licensing_information.shtml" (could be my poor HTML skills). If you click throught to Rifle and Shotgun permits, the link to the PDF itself is at the bottom of the page; the relevant text is on page 6 of the PDF, which is titled "Procedures for registering rifles and shotguns", at item f.

[Lion]

Once again Lion comes through; thanks. I have an older version of the subject document in hard copy, but didn't know that it was posted online. The quote comes from a PDF of the NYCRSP application instructions and related documents, which are posted by the NYPD (as of 8/08) here: http://home2.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/permits/rifle_licensing_information.shtml

I can't seem to get the embedded link to work for me, but the page in question is on the NYPD website under "Permits" at this address: "http://home2.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/permits/rifle_licensing_information.shtml" (could be my poor HTML skills). If you click throught to Rifle and Shotgun permits, the link to the PDF itself is at the bottom of the page; the relevant text is on page 6 of the PDF, which is titled "Procedures for registering rifles and shotguns", at item f.


Yes, RKBA, thats where I found it, burried in NYPD website. (They only got the rifle/shotgun permits online about 3 months ago). I guess we're in agreement, as long as you don't bring the long guns into the city you should be fine. This should also be fine for "evil" rifles.

[MueveloNYC]

Thanks guys... updated the FAQ! It's coming along very nicely!

[NYC_FA]

There's no law on the amount of ammo you can transport or be in posession of. The only rule is from FDNY firecodes which state that you cannot have more than 200 rounds in your home. (For NYC and 5 boroughs that is)


I didn't realize this was an FDNY rule, I thought it was just additional restrictions to the NYC firearms laws. Very interesting and good to know, thanks.

[MueveloNYC]

Yup, not too many people know about this law because it's only published in the fire codes, not in the firearms codes. However, anywhere you purchase ammo from an FFL in NYC will usually remind you about the FDNY rule if you buy more than a few boxes of ammo.

[smschulz]

Man. I jest read thru this thread entirely for the first time. That is some f**k'd up s**t. My heart really sunk hearing about the endless regulations. It hard to believe that with so many people living there that the marjority beleive that this is the right thing. It just makes many of us in other 'free' states appreciate the 2nd ammendment more. God bless all of you for having to go thru this. I hope that some day that NYC (also DC and others) will wake up. BTW what do the bad guys do with all of the regulations?

[MueveloNYC]

Thanks man. Of course criminals in NYC with guns don't follow gun laws. That's the definition of a criminal. Every since news incident that I read involving a gun is from a criminal who did not follow NYC gun laws. I have friends in NYPD who also concur. The problem is the Sullivan law was instituted to protect Tammany's gang by disarming rival gangs of the 5-points. It never really did accomplish keeping guns out of the hands of criminals. Yeah that's one reason why I love Florida and Texas. The politicians understand the fact that an armed population of law abiding citizens is a deterrant for criminals. Now that the economy is tanking, armed home invasions that result in burglaries is through the roof, and they are targeting New Yorkers. The reason is that these criminals know that NYC has a low probability that the gun owner will be armed, and they like it that way.

This political cartoon from the NY Post sums it up, even though it's directed toward DC...
http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/56/cartoonaq3.jpg

The good news is that NYPD has significally sped up the process (relatively speaking, as it's still slow compared to the rest of the nation) of getting a license now since applications are through the roof...

[NYC_FA]

I was speaking with someone in Suffolk County over the weekend and it seems they might have it as bad as NYC. They also have no CCW and an amazingly complicated and long application. On the other hand they can get long guns without a permit and they don't have to apply for each new purchase.

Either way, I applied to NYC with a clean application five months ago and still don't have a permit!

[MueveloNYC]

Yup to get CCW, you really have to get pretty far upstate (ie: beyond westchester, rockland, and higher).

And when you DO get your license, always remember to renew, otherwise you'll have to reapply from scratch! *ouch!*

[City Dweller]

I wanted to join others in thanking the Original Poster for his wonderful FAQ and thread. I live in NYC also. Last month I submitted my application for a premise license, and got the interview letter just a few days ago. Will be going to the interview soon, as soon as I assemble the whole paperwork package (not a small task.) Will let y'all know how it went.

Dear MueveloNYC, do you happen to know the situation with antique (prior to 1898) guns in NYC? Can I buy, say, a Colt Navy 1851 without any license, registration, etc.? Highly unlikely, but I thought I'd ask. I could not find any information about it on the Internet.

Thanks.

-- City Dweller

[Lion]

I wanted to join others in thanking the Original Poster for his wonderful FAQ and thread. I live in NYC also. Last month I submitted my application for a premise license, and got the interview letter just a few days ago. Will be going to the interview soon, as soon as I assemble the whole paperwork package (not a small task.) Will let y'all know how it went.

Dear MueveloNYC, do you happen to know the situation with antique (prior to 1898) guns in NYC? Can I buy, say, a Colt Navy 1851 without any license, registration, etc.? Highly unlikely, but I thought I'd ask. I could not find any information about it on the Internet.

Thanks.

-- City Dweller

City Dweller,
Congrats on getting your application submitted. Its a lot of paperwork but the hardest part is the wait. I am going on 9 months now. :eek::mad: I want to take a swing at your question about the Colt Navy 1851. Basically, if its a blackpowder (not cartridge) you are good to go as long as you don't have the powder, cap and ball to load it in you possession. Good luck with the rest of the application process.

[MueveloNYC]

City Dweller, congrats on your first step to being one of the NYC gun owners!

As for your question, it's still a bit gray, although NRA-ILA does summarize it well on the last page: http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/NYSL.pdf

Basically if the gun is antique (ie: ball & powder) and you do not plan on shooting it (or it is inoperable) then you do not need to register/license it. However, if you do posses materials that NYPD could deem as that firearm being operable (ie: you have powder) then you have to register it. The reason this is gray is because the law simply states that if you have in possession material to fire, not if you have all the materials to fire. So technically just being in possession of a lead or powder alone could nail you a court hearing if you own an unregistered antique/relic. Muzzleloaders need to be registered as well from what I read. From my personal standpoint, I would register it regardless to prevent any potential headaches down the road.

[ironchef]

Another question is how would City Dweller be able to register this antique since in theory, it would not have a serial number on it from back in the day?

Congrats on the Premise permit application. Hope everything works out and you can join all of us at the Westside Range.

[Lion]

City Dweller, congrats on your first step to being one of the NYC gun owners!

As for your question, it's still a bit gray, although NRA-ILA does summarize it well on the last page: http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/NYSL.pdf

Basically if the gun is antique (ie: ball & powder) and you do not plan on shooting it (or it is inoperable) then you do not need to register/license it. However, if you do posses materials that NYPD could deem as that firearm being operable (ie: you have powder) then you have to register it. The reason this is gray is because the law simply states that if you have in possession material to fire, not if you have all the materials to fire. So technically just being in possession of a lead or powder alone could nail you a court hearing if you own an unregistered antique/relic. Muzzleloaders need to be registered as well from what I read. From my personal standpoint, I would register it regardless to prevent any potential headaches down the road.

From the same page, would not this provide the exemption for muzzleloaders(handgun or longrifle)

NY Law has interpreted this to mean antique rifles,
shotguns, handguns, and replicas thereof, are generally
exempt from the above restrictions and can be bought and
possessed without a permit. (Persons who shoot muzzleloading
handguns must be properly licensed.) However,
to fall within the exemption, antique handguns must be
unloaded and possessed without the materials required
for loading.

Also from City Admin. Code 10-305b.

b. Antiques and ornaments. The provisions of this chapter shall not apply to antique rifles and shotguns which are incapable of being fired or discharged or which do not fire fixed ammunition, or those weapons manufactured prior to eighteen hundred ninety-four and those weapons whose design was patented and whose commercial manufacture commenced prior to eighteen hundred ninety-four and whose manufacture continued after eighteen hundred ninety-four without any substantial alteration in design or function, and for which cartridge ammunition is not commercially available and are possessed as curiosities or ornaments or for their historical significance and value. This exemption shall not apply to assault weapons.

IMO I think City Dweller is good to go as long as he does not have any of the materials to load.

[MueveloNYC]

I was referring to modern muzzleloaders, but yeah, if it's old school, in theory they wouldn't have to be registered assuming you didn't have powder. If you are in posession of powder, even to reload your own rounds for cartridge based guns, I would lean on the side of caution and go ahead and register them.

Reason it's better to err on the side of caution, is because the other side would automatically put you as a felon: possession of an unregistered firearm, which would, if you're found guilty, not only revoke all your firearms, but by being charged of a felony, you won't be able to own guns ever again. It sucks since outside of NYC or other states for that matter, it's not a felony. This is yet another reason why firearms should be regulated uniformly on a federal level state-to-state.

Registering rifles and relics need not a serial # necessarily, they just want to account that you are in possession of it. Make, model, barrel length, caliber.

[City Dweller]

Thanks a lot, gentlemen. I really love the look of them Colt Navy's :-)

My first real gun will probably be a .45 1911, and then probably an HK.

Thanks again.

[ironchef]

Do yourself a favor and get a Springfield for the 1911. You'll thank me later. :D

[Lion]

Called 1PP today to see status of my app (been 9 months). Was told that my app had been signed off by Captain and that it went to issuing. Hopefully this means it will be in the mail soon!

[MueveloNYC]

Mail? Nah doesn't come in the mail. You'll either get a letter in the mail to come down or a phone call to come down and pick it up and take your photo.

[NYC_FA]

Called 1PP today to see status of my app (been 9 months). Was told that my app had been signed off by Captain and that it went to issuing. Hopefully this means it will be in the mail soon!

This is my jealous rage:1200000:

I'm 6 months in and waiting..... I was planning on calling next week but now I'm thinking I'll give it a little longer.

[ironchef]

Not only taking a picture and picking up the license, but also picking up your first purchase order!!! Congrats!

[Lion]

Finally got the letter in the mail today!:D

So, how long does this next step of the process take? Of course one can only go to 1PP M-T 9-12 to pick it up. :eek: I am pretty busy at work tomorrow but want to try fit it in.

Hope to see you guys soon!

[City Dweller]

Hi all,

Wanted to give you a heads-up on my interview in Room 110 that I just got back from.

The interviewing officer was extremely nice and friendly. He asked me many of the standard questions on the application (about arrests, history of domestic violence, etc.) plus asked me to discuss, in my own words, the use of deadly force. I told him deadly force should be used as a last resort only and you should always retreat whenever possible, except when you are in your own dwelling. He seemed very pleased and satisfied with my reply. He also asked me why I needed a gun and I said "target shooting."

The officer also gave me a short lecture about rules and regulations, such as the 10-rounds per magazine limit and others.

Then he said something that caught me by surprise: he said "No hollow-point ammunition!"

Mindful of this FAQ, I said "I thought this was only illegal in NJ" and he said "it's illegal everywhere, except when used by law enforcement." Well, that's clearly not true (in PA it is not illegal, for example). I wonder if he meant NYS or NYC only. Any comments on that, folks? Can someone point me to the applicable statute?

Now about timeline. I don't know if NYPD has sped things up after the SCOTUS DC vs. Heller ruling, or maybe I am just lucky with my officer, but things are moving really fast for me. I brought my app to 1PP on July 15 and got an interview letter around Aug 18. My interview was today, and he told me to expect an approval letter in a month or two. They had told me the same thing about the interview letter, and it turned out to be true.

Good luck to those of you who are still waiting, and (hopefully) see you all at the range soon!

-- City Dweller

[Lion]

I was at 1PP today too. Got my card and my purchase order. My app went in Jan. 2, 2008, interview request letter came a week later. Called the same day and interviewed was scheduled for mid-feb. Got my notice yesterday and pickup up the card today. Approx. 9 months.

[101vet]

I was born and raised in NY City and I will never move back there just because of their extreme gun laws.

Kevin

[MueveloNYC]

WARNING: For the record DO NOT print this and bring this to 1 Police Plaza expecting to use this as gospel for them to change their mind. This is not legal advice nor the law. This is just a summary of what us gun owners have gathered over the years of dealing with this crap. If you're still unsure about the hollowpoint law, ask any FFL that sells them in NYC. They will quote the law for you exactly.

City Dweller, hollowpoint ammunition is legal, but the law is almost identical to NJ, so it's really tricky. If you go get an NJ FID card they will also tell you the same thing, that hollowpoints are illegal. You can only have hollowpoint ammo in the home or buy/consume it at the range. You're not supposed to be in posession on your person, and if used in a commisission of a crime it's a higher offence. Also most hollowpoint manufacturers are not allowed to sell hollowpoint ammo directly to civilians but FFL's and ranges in NYC do sell them to civilians for home defense. If you go to any range or FFL that sells ammo, they will legally sell you hollowpoints such as Gold-Dots or Hydra-Shok, but will warn you to keep them at home and don't go walking around with them, have them in your backpack, or keeping them in a car or something like that. Oh yeah, and don't transport them through NJ without printing that printout from the NJ Police website, since most of them are also unaware that they are legal.

The reason I'm think why this rule was made was to bust criminals who don't have a gun on their person, but is transporting hollowpoint ammo to sell to a criminal. So if they're not going directly to the range or not going directly home, they can arrest them.

Frangibles and other exotic rounds (ie:Black Talons, incindiary rounds, etc) are banned.

EDIT: also congrats to Lion and Crestfall for getting their licenses today!

[Crestfall]

Overall I think mine took about 6 or 7 months (I lost count). Much faster than the old system, but noting like my other out-of-state licenses which were more like 1 hr.

I picked up my license today down at 1pp as well, and went back two hours later to officially take posession of a Kimber 1911 Custom II ... but that's a story for another time.

Congrats, Lion! Good shooting.

[ironchef]

That sounds WAY off. I called two local shops (NY Ironworks and John Jovinos) and they said that info is completely wrong. I'll call my club guy and Westside range to confirm. I HATE when NYPD gives out wrong info. Did you get your investigator's name?

[City Dweller]

MueveloNYC: As always, thanks for a detailed and informative post. I am sure you are correct, and HP ammo can be kept at home.

Crestfall: Congrats! Did you order your Kimber in advance (even before you got your license)? I am thinking of getting a custom 1911 myself, and I've heard it takes a while, and you only have 30 days.

Lion: Congratulations also. Whatcha gettin'?

ironchef: I have the name but I ain't disclosing it just yet ;-) I still don't have my license, remember? ;-)

[Lion]

Thanks everyone, even with all the paperwork seems that the waiting was the hardest paper.

What am I getting? Well, its a long story, but a Ruger GP100 is first on my list. After that, its a Kimber 1911 and HK P2000SK (maybe not in that order).

This brings me to another questions, what is the deal with purchase orders? They told me every 90 days, but is there a wait for the purchase order as well. For example, if I get my gun listed on my permit in the next few days can I apply for a new purchase order there and then? Is there another "waiting period" for the approval? Is this time included in the 90 days?

Thanks for everyones help and special thanks to MueveloNYC for one of the most helpful threads around!

[MueveloNYC]

The purchase order is a joke. So say today is day 1 you just bought your first gun on your license (the purchase order comes with it). 90 days pass by, you call 1PP to send you a purchase request form. They mail you that. You fill out the caliber, make, model, barrel length, and mail this back. This is a REQUEST for a purchase order, not the actual one. 90 days will pass, so on the 180th day after your first gun, you'll get a paper telling you to come down to 1PP to pick up your purchase order. Then you have 60 days to purchase the gun that's exactly stated on your purchsae order. Purchase your gun, have them fill out the purchase order form. Take your bill of sale and the purchase order to 1PP within 72 hours to have it put on your license and inspected. If you don't do this within 72 hours, you will be arrested at 1PP for illegal posession upon inspection time. After that you reset your counter to 90 days again.

Rifles don't need a purchase order form. They just need to be registered, but again, they still fall on the 90 day rule. (I guess in theory you could squeeze it inbetween the request time and purchase order confirmation, as long as you wait additional days at the end to ensure it's 90 days after you purchase the rifle)

BTW - my P2000sk is still for sale. I'm not in a rush to use it as it sits in my safe at home. Congrats again!


That sounds WAY off. I called two local shops (NY Ironworks and John Jovinos) and they said that info is completely wrong. I'll call my club guy and Westside range to confirm. I HATE when NYPD gives out wrong info. Did you get your investigator's name?

It could also be a tatic to scare people to deter them from trying to get it.

[Lion]

They actually gave me the request today so could I just hand that in when I get my first gun put on my card? 90 days from then?

[City Dweller]

It could also be a tatic to scare people to deter them from trying to get it.

My investigator today specifically warned me against buying HP ammo from the dealers who, according to him, would say just about anything to push their products on unsuspecting customers, and they don't care about the law.

Lion and Crestfall: although this is an HK forum, please allow me to ask you this off-topic question since you both are getting Kimbers: have you had any doubts about this brand considering its recent quality control issues? There are many postings about it on the Internet. A range keeper in PA I talked to, who is also an FFL, advised me against getting a Kimber II. According to him, ever since the son of the founder took over, he started cutting corners. Thanks for your insight, I am getting a 1911 also, just can't decide which one.

[MueveloNYC]

I don't want this thread to get closed, please direct the kimber question over PM's please.

As for the investigator's comments, I highly doubt it. Especially as NYPD and FBI also train at Westside Range, which is also an FFL. Also K&R in Yonkers which is owned and operated by retired NYPD (and is an LE hangout) also sells hollowpoints. I highly doubt that active badged officers who are also FFL owners/operators would break the law. ;)

Can someone do me a favor, if the next time you're down there can you ask what section in the codes it states this, becuase I've read section 400 at least 30 times to make this FAQ and it has no mention of this. I'd like to see where it exactly states in the law where this is illegal so that I can post it here officially and put it to rest.

[MueveloNYC]

They actually gave me the request today so could I just hand that in when I get my first gun put on my card? 90 days from then?

So when you bring your gun down for inspection and put it on your license, it'd be 90 days from that date when you can put in the request to get the purchase order...

[MueveloNYC]

I did a little research, and this is the only thing I could find that remotely puts hollowpoint in the banned frangible class:
http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=A03447

It passed the Assembly but was shot down in the NY State Senate.

Doing a news search only revealed that they were charged of possession in a commission of a crime or were obviously not going to/from a range/home (or fled into NJ with them while committing a crime. Looking through NYSRPA.org's site has no mention of any hollowpoint ban.

EDIT: Bingo... I knew I wasn't crazy... Ammobank is a New York State ammo dealer and sells hollowpoints as long as you send them a copy of your pistol license. They obviously can't ship to NYC unless you're an FFL, but NY City doesn't have anything in their firearms code that strictly prohibits hollowpoints, and thus any law would come from the state.

http://www.ammobank.com/cgi-bin/cshop/store/gaugeshow.tam?pagenumber%2Eptx=1&cartridge%5Fgauge%2Ectx=9%20mm%20%2BP

I think I might raise this issue with the NRA lawyers to see if they can resolve this issue.

[Lion]

This post reserved for additional content

If anyone knows the answers to these or goes to see NYPD/1PP please ask them the answers to these:

Is is legal to reload my own ammunition in NY City?
(From my research no one seems to know, and someone stated that gunpowder requires a license like propane does in Manhattan)

Is the Benelli M4 shotgun legal to own in NYC if you have the fixed stock (no pistol grip)?
I'm still unable to get a clear answer from anyone...

This thread is getting long.... Anyway was going over it, I don't see why the M4 with a standard stock would not be legal to own in NYC. It only has a 5 round capacity and meets all the length requirements. What are your thoughts on why it would be a problem?

[NYC_FA]

This thread is getting long.... Anyway was going over it, I don't see why the M4 with a standard stock would not be legal to own in NYC. It only has a 5 round capacity and meets all the length requirements. What are your thoughts on why it would be a problem?

All ARs are semi auto WITH a pistol grip. NYC considers this an assault weapon. Simple as that. You can not have a pistil grip rifle IF it is semi auto. Bolt action with a pistol grip is ok, just not semi auto.,

[Lion]

All ARs are semi auto WITH a pistol grip. NYC considers this an assault weapon. Simple as that. You can not have a pistil grip rifle IF it is semi auto. Bolt action with a pistol grip is ok, just not semi auto.,

Sorry for confusion. We are speaking on M4 benelli shotgun without pistol grip.

[RKBA]

Confusion indeed...I wonder if Benelli came up with the M4 designation for their semi-auto shotgun before or after the advent of the M4 variant of the M16 5.56mm selective-fire rifle/carbine? Anyway, the Benelli M4 shotgun minus the pistol grip would be "just" another semi-auto shotgun, I think, and not an AW under the 1-feature NYC AWB and therefore OK (so long as the mag capacity was 5 or less, of course).

On the NYC and/or NYS hollowpoint ban question, that's the first that I've even heard of such a concept (which would prove exactly nothing, of course). There's been an HP ban in NJ for a long time, but I've never heard of such a thing in NYS/NYC. Can anyone provide a legislative citation? If not, perhaps City Dweller's investigator was incorrect/confused?

Congrats to Lion and Crestfall, too...happy shooting. I'm still waiting myself, so in the meantime I've sent in my FL non-res CCW application, and started the process for MA non-res LTC (1st time NY applications need a copy of their criminal record from Albany).

[MueveloNYC]

I know the M4 you could get without the pistol stock, and a standard rifle style fixed stock. With that if you could reduce the capacity to 5 rounds and have it operate in pump style action, would that be ok with NYPD? I have heard that NYPD doesn't like the fact that it has both pump and semi auto action (inertia driven).

As for M16, AR15, etc. they are all specifically listed as assault weapons in NYC only (as well as all clones). Outside of NYC for the rest of NY State, you can buy them and preban mags.

RKBA, could you PM me info on what the process to apply for MA carry please? I'll have to do a lot of business up there next year, and the last thing I want is trouble. One of my friends came back from Iraq 2 years ago and was carjacked at gunpoint there, and he got so pissed that he dragged the guy 100 feet and turned the gun into the police. He got so mad that he became a cop too. :) BTW - how do you ask Albany for your criminal record if you have none?

[Lion]

I know the M4 you could get without the pistol stock, and a standard rifle style fixed stock. With that if you could reduce the capacity to 5 rounds and have it operate in pump style action, would that be ok with NYPD? I have heard that NYPD doesn't like the fact that it has both pump and semi auto action (inertia driven).

As for M16, AR15, etc. they are all specifically listed as assault weapons in NYC only (as well as all clones). Outside of NYC for the rest of NY State, you can buy them and preban mags.

RKBA, could you PM me info on what the process to apply for MA carry please? I'll have to do a lot of business up there next year, and the last thing I want is trouble. One of my friends came back from Iraq 2 years ago and was carjacked at gunpoint there, and he got so pissed that he dragged the guy 100 feet and turned the gun into the police. He got so mad that he became a cop too. :) BTW - how do you ask Albany for your criminal record if you have none?

As far as I can tell the M4 on comes as a semi-auto. Where have you seen it come in pump?

[RKBA]

The Benelli M4 looks a bit like the Franchi SPAS 12, which is both semi-auto and pump capable, but the Benelli appears to only be semi-auto, per the Benelli website at http://www.benelliusa.com/firearms/m4.tpl.

This thread is indeed getting long! There is a lot of great information in here, but it might be a bit hard for a new reader to find what they are looking for and/or to "get to the bottom" of a specific question or issue. (My own detour on the topic of NYC AWB's & lawful possession outside of NYC is a prime example.) MueveloNYC - you might want to consider locking this thread so that the only future changes would actually be to the FAQ itself, which would force all of us to start our own threads on specific topics, which in turn might help keep us on topic within a particular thread. Just a thought/suggestion....

Allow me to try to lead by example. As the topic of MA non-resident licensing is/should really be its own topic, I'll start a new one in this forum (HKPRO BY STATE | NEW YORK).

[MueveloNYC]

This is ok... That's why I only edit the first 10 posts with the pertinent conclusions, so that the user doesn't have to read through all this. Yes they M4 cycles like semi auto through inertia driven, but you can still operate it in a semi auto fashion using the cycling lever.

[Crestfall]

City Dweller: PM me with questions. Or you can start a new thread and let me know where you're posting questions. No thread hijacking, please.

Lion: I've shot Muevelo's P2KSK. It's a very good piece and LNIB. It doesn't suit my style, but is otherwise is a very good gun.

[pcs335i]

Does anyone know anything about applying for a pre-license exemption?

According to the application, it lets you shoot at a range while you are waiting for the permit application to be processed. Do you need authorization from a range?

Also, does the permit licensing division approve you for an exemption right there when you are submitting your application, or later on?

Thank You

[MueveloNYC]

That only qualifies for those who work for a security firm and are applying for a job-related gun license such as armed security guard (since they need to qualify in proficiency in pistols to to own for job-related purposes)

But for the pre-exemption thing it takes awhile as they do the background check and employment confirmation to see if you really work for a security firm and if they indeed are sponsoring/endorsing your license. I haven't gone through that experience, but from what others have told me this is the case.

[Lion]

Has anyone actually ever used the "Hunting Endorsement" to go shooting upstate. Seems like the writing on the card says permission to travel the state and permission to carry the gun afield.

[MueveloNYC]

I brought with me when I went to Davis sports (the range in Goshen). Honestly all of NY State could care less. They just need to see that you have a pistol license issued by some locality of NY State. The green endorsement card I have with me but no one asks for it. The reason is that the card is a rule set by NYC which doesn't have jurisdiction for the entire state, which is, at the root of the argument. Thus there is no one outside the city to enforce it, except maybe a state trooper on the highway, who might pull you over who knows NYC law, in which case it is necessary to have the card if you're outside the 5 boroughs. It's a really gray area, and the card is more of a CYA type thing. I also have the card with me when I'm leaving the state, since technically I'm transporting out of NYC to a different state, even though I have permits to carry for PA and CT, which should cover me as long as I have it unloaded, locked in a case, inaccessible to the driver, ammo separate.

Here's also an interesting info from here: http://www.lcav.org/states/newyork.asp

Basically it states that that restriction created by NYC is only valid in NYC locality, as a local supplement, and cannot supersede state law outside of NYC.


In De Illy v. Kelly, 775 N.Y.S.2d 256 (N.Y. App. Div. 2004), the court upheld a local regulation that allows firearm possession restricted by state law. The De Illy court rejected a preemption challenge to New York City's creation of a "premise" license that allows a permittee to possess a firearm on his or her premises and to transport the firearm to authorized target ranges and hunting areas. The court found that although state law regulating premise licenses, N.Y. Penal Law § 400.00(2)(a), does not permit licensees to transport weapons, the law has not preempted the field and the local law is merely an acceptable supplement to state law in this area.

Long barrels like rifles and shotguns it doesn't matter. There is no permit so you can travel with them all over NY State to shoot. After buying the Benelli, I need to find a range that has clay shooting. :)

[Lion]

I brought with me when I went to Davis sports (the range in Goshen). Honestly all of NY State could care less. They just need to see that you have a pistol license issued by some locality of NY State. The green endorsement card I have with me but no one asks for it. The reason is that the card is a rule set by NYC which doesn't have jurisdiction for the entire state, which is, at the root of the argument. Thus there is no one outside the city to enforce it, except maybe a state trooper on the highway, who might pull you over who knows NYC law, in which case it is necessary to have the card if you're outside the 5 boroughs. It's a really gray area, and the card is more of a CYA type thing. I also have the card with me when I'm leaving the state, since technically I'm transporting out of NYC to a different state, even though I have permits to carry for PA and CT, which should cover me as long as I have it unloaded, locked in a case, inaccessible to the driver, ammo separate.

Here's also an interesting info from here: http://www.lcav.org/states/newyork.asp

Basically it states that that restriction created by NYC is only valid in NYC locality, as a local supplement, and cannot supersede state law outside of NYC.



Long barrels like rifles and shotguns it doesn't matter. There is no permit so you can travel with them all over NY State to shoot. After buying the Benelli, I need to find a range that has clay shooting. :)

Once again, you come thru MueveloNYC. Thanks!

[MueveloNYC]

No problem. Again a lot of this stuff I wrote down since it's what I went through and people kept asking me. :) For the other stuff listed here, we can discuss it out and I can post the conclusions on the first page of the FAQ. :)

[City Dweller]

I have another question, if you don't mind.

Are there any specific requirements to a container you can transport your handgun in, other than being lockable and opaque? Does it have to be a hard case (plastic/metal), or a fabric rug with a zipper securable with a lock will do?

-- City Dweller

[MueveloNYC]

No real specific case as long as it's opaque., so a cloth case, like the HK Eagle style one will work too. It just needs to be lockable case with a lock (so if it has zippers, lock the zipper pulls together), but also remember to add a trigger lock. Ammo should not be in the same case/bag and should not be on your person either (so put it in a different seperate bag)

[NYC_FA]

My interview was in late July....... Still no word - 9 weeks since interview, 7 months since app was submitted and counting....


I wonder what, if any, effect all of the imminent NYC budget cuts will have on this process. Bloomberg has said massive budget cuts will need to be made for ALL city organizations due to the layoffs / collapse of Wall Street institutions. I would assume that includes the licensing department, probably resulting in an even longer wait for the people who are starting the process or people waiting for a purchase order.

[RKBA]

From the laws of NY under § 400.00 Licenses to carry, possess, repair and dispose of firearms.:


4-a. Processing of license applications. Applications for licenses
shall be accepted for processing by the licensing officer at the time of
presentment. Except upon written notice to the applicant specifically
stating the reasons for any delay, in each case the licensing officer
shall act upon any application for a license pursuant to this section
within six months of the date of presentment of such an application to
the appropriate authority. Such delay may only be for good cause and
with respect to the applicant. In acting upon an application, the
licensing officer shall either deny the application for reasons
specifically and concisely stated in writing or grant the application
and issue the license applied for.

My own personal timing is almost exactly the same as yours, NYC_FA, and I'm still waiting too. In my case, I was told at my interview that I needed to submit one final form for my application package to be complete. I mailed in the completed form three days later (couldn't get their fax machine to connect with mine), but then never heard anything further. Of course, it turns out that they "never received it". :rolleyes: Shame on me for not sending it certified, return-receipt requested. So, a little bit of my delay can be attributed to this period of dead time.

I'd advise you to call your investigator directly and politely ask "if everything is OK, or were they waiting for something else from me".

[The Dude]

Does seem like the permit department is dragging their feet on your application. I submitted all my materials in April, interview at the end of May, and got the notice of approval mid-September. Altogether about 5.5 months. Calling might not be a bad idea.

On another note, does anyone here know what the deal is with full metal jacket ammo at Westside? Can you shoot copper FMJ there? I'm trying to buy ammo in bulk and I don't want to get the wrong thing.

[MueveloNYC]

Keep in mind you won't be able to legally buy, own, or posess ammo until you have your license. Shipping ammo in the mail into New York City is illegal unless you are an FFL.

All ammo (except magnums up to .45ACP) are allowed at Westside. The "range" ammo is actually FMJ, except for the .22lr which are just cheap lead heads. NYPD usually shoot hollowpoints, but I can imagine that'll get expensive real quick.

As a personal note, since it's indoors, consider making an effort to ensure that the ammo you purchase after you get your license is clean-fire (non-lead primer). Also don't buy anything that is illegal in NY State such as certain frangibles and black talon heads.

[MueveloNYC]

Update: added NYC ranges on post #4

I just joined the Staten Island Sportsman Club today after going there and shooting 100 clays. This place is awesome! I highly recommend!

[ironchef]

Mue, I don't think Black Talons are illegal in NYS. Winchesters new version of the Black Talons are the Rangers and those are available at all sporting goods store that stock ammo in NYS. Same bullet that mushrooms the same way, just not black colored and with a "friendlier" name, hehe.

[MueveloNYC]

right... becuase they're not the "branded" black talons. The legislature specifically banned the brand, not the technology. Thus the newer ones aren't listed. Then again, generally its not a good idea to own "exotic" (at least what a court would see as exotic) ammunition as defense ammo as there's been cases where it was argued that the defender premeditated to kill by owning exotic ammo. This is why many organizations in NYC have suggested that one should consider using Speer Gold Dots, which is what NYPD uses, and thus the argument of "exotic" is void.

[ironchef]

So use what the NYPD uses. Thats ironic considering how well received the NYPD are these days, LOL. :D

[The Dude]

Thanks for the info. I'm just going to buy (or have shipped) upstate where my family lives and leave most of it up there. I got my license mid-September so I'm good to go.

Good point about the lead primers. I was reading up on lead poisoning at indoor ranges the other night - disturbing. FMJ seems to be the only way to avoid that problem - in addition to using lead-free primers. How aware is Westside of this problem? Do they use sufficient air ventilation? I'm thinking I might try to do most of my shooting at outdoor ranges upstate to avoid this problem.

Also, are frangibles illegal in NY? I find that crazy because those bullets are made to be safer than normal slugs or even hollow points, which can ricochet or go through walls. I have to find out because I wanted to get some Extreme Shock composite bullets so that - god forbid - I ever had to shoot at someone I wouldn't inadvertently kill one of my neighbors.

[MueveloNYC]

Legality of frangibles is still very grey. I'd consult with a lawyer first, as this is not the place to make a decision on it.

At Westside they have ventilation, but most of us who go there on a weekly basis shoot with masks on to filter out the lead you breathe to keep our blood lead levels low. If you only go once in awhile, it shoudln't be that big of a deal.

[The Dude]

Not a grey area anymore. http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=a3447

The legislature just passed this law outlawing frangible ammo in NY. For some reason beyond my own comprehension, the legislature seems to think that frangible ammo is more deadly than normal ball ammunition. Ridiculous.

Law goes into effect November 1, and makes possession a crime. Sweet, so now we cannot own ammo that reduces the likelihood of accidentally killing someone. What next?

[MueveloNYC]

Holy crap. This actually passed? Where are my NRA dues being spent, and why aren't they being used to protect NY'ers?

I guess that makes it official. Frangibles are banned on top of exotic rounds, devastators, armor piercing (now that would include all technologies since they're bonded with compound), etc. I guess the frangible argument is that it leaves to ballstic trace as it shatters... But you still have the brass and that lovely NYC ballistic database that has yet to have been successfully used to identify a criminal... *rolleyes*

At least hollowpoints are still legal as they're not bonded.

EDIT: added this info to the FAQ, in post #5

[ironchef]

more wasted tax dollars on ill-conceived legislation.

mue: btw there are bonded hollow-points. nothing appears in the legislative text to refer to bonded ammo.

[MueveloNYC]

not bonded to the way they're describing though:


projectile core composed of hybrid materials, either pressed
together at high pressure or glued together with adhesives, which is
capable of being used in pistols and revolvers and is designed to
fracture or disintegrate upon impact.

Hollowpoints aren't bonded like that. But it also basically bans talon-like technology, since it makes all armor piercing ammo any anything even remotely similar to talons illegal (which is mentioned in the rest of the bill). Then again, that's considered "exotic" ammo, like glasers, while Speer Gold Dots are not, according to the court of law. I'm actually surprised they included devastator type now (and not earlier) which is basically a high explosive round. LOL

We should just get rid of these ridiculous laws and go for the one that makes sense. Criminal possession of a weapon and enforce that. Criminals who are felons aren't supposed to have them. Period.

[MueveloNYC]

This one is for the noobs:

Guide to posting: http://ktmtalk.com/uploads/posting.swf

[RKBA]

Got the approval letter last week; picked up the new license at room 152 today! 7 months, 22 days since submission. Now I've just got to get M.L. Security on the phone to get them to ship my new HK45 tonight to Darren at West Side!

[ironchef]

Congrats! Look forward to seeing you at Westside and maybe trying out your HK45, haha! :D

[MueveloNYC]

Let us know when you're coming down. I plan on being there this Friday. If you want, you can shoot my USP while you're waiting for your piece.

[alexnyc]

I'm a new member here and I just wanted to thank all you guys for making this quite possibly the best source of information for firearms laws in NYC. This is an invaluable read.

I also thought I should mention I got my pistol permit (premise/range) within 3 months of applying, from start to finish. I guess its a much quicker process now. Dealing with 1 Police Plaza was an absolutely positive experience, from dealing with the investigator in charge of my case to the rest of the staff.

Thanks for all the info. Keep it coming!

[MueveloNYC]

Welcome to the club. Glad that we could help you!

Anyways change in plans. I'm not going to the range, as Friday is Halloween and the parade runs via 6th Ave, and end's at 21st street, so trying to get to the range is going to be near impossible (esp. since I live on the east side of 6th ave)

[ironchef]

I'll be there on Saturday. Have USPc, USP Tactical, 1911s to try....

[RKBA]

Thanks guys - I'd love to try all of those, and (of course) reciprocate. Unfortunately, however, MLSec is apparently having some severe logistical problems on their end, so no HK45 for me yet...no 1PP gun inspections on Fridays, either, so probably no range time for me until next week. We will make it happen, though.

In the FYI category, I stopped by West Side briefly this evening, and saw that they're closed tomorrow (10/30/08) for a film/TV shoot (in case anyone was planning on going there to shoot).

[MueveloNYC]

Oh geez... more Law and Order shooting there again? Argh! This is the 3rd time this year!

[ironchef]

you know, i have yet to see an episode of Law & Order with them at the Westside Range. Can someone point out the episodes so I can dload them?

[MueveloNYC]

I find the show boring so I wouldn't know...

[ironchef]

RKBA: You should still drop by the range even though you don't have your HK45 in hand yet. Since you have your license now and purchase authorization, you are allowed to handle pistols and shoot them.

[MueveloNYC]

Exactly - plus you can rent them from Westside Range as well. :)

[The Dude]

I'm thinking of stopping by the range Saturday - unless I have to work. What time are you guys going to be around?

I'll have my Colt 1911 Gold Cup, which brings me to the next question. My father, lazy person that he is, never once cleaned this gun before giving it to me. Have any of you used the ultrasonic cleaning services at Westside? If so, is it a good clean? Do you think it would work on a fairly dirty gun? I went at this thing last weekend with all kinds of solvents and stuff - no luck.

Also, is Saturday a day when a non-member can show up at the range and just pay for one day?

[MueveloNYC]

I can't go on Saturday, but the range is open to the public (you just have to pay a fee). Just call ahead at let them know, since you do have to fill out some paperwork (liability waiver).

The ultrasonic cleaning should get it out. If it can't then you're probably out of options other than sending it to someone to grind or polish it out.

[ironchef]

Be aware Saturdays can get pretty packed. My club meets at Westside on Saturdays. There's security guard training/certification and there are also .22 classes for people just looking to shoot a gun for the first time (rifle). Usually after 1pm or so is when most of the crowd clears out. I usually get there 11am and leave about 2pm.

[RKBA]

Hope you guys had fun this weekend. I asked MLSec to send my new HK45 to Westside on Friday for delivery tomorrow, so I'll be there bright and early to meet it! I don't have any tracking information, but assuming they did, in fact, send it, I should be inspected and ready to go by tomorrow afternoon. I look forward to meeting all of you in person.

[MueveloNYC]

moved and updated quotes to post #8

[pcs335i]

hey FYI for everyone the handgun and rife/shotgun licensing sections now accept credit card payments for new applications according to the nypd website.

[RKBA]

That's quite unexpected - credit cards? Are they upping the cost to the applicant by the amount of the fee to the card processor?

Meanwhile, I went all the way down to 1PP today to get my new HK45 inspected, and they were "closed", for what I guess qualifies as a holiday. Oh well. I'll try again tomorrow.

[MueveloNYC]

Wow took long enough. It was about time as it makes it more Sarbanes-Oxley compliant with being able to track funds. I'll post it in the FAQ.

[City Dweller]

Ho ho ho!

Christmas has arrived early for me this year! I received the Letter of Approval for my handgun license yesterday, and picked up the license at 1PP today. It took me 3.5 months altogether, quite fast!

I've already bought membership at Westside Range and will soon be going there with my new Wilson 1911 (they haven't received it in the mail yet.)

A question to you all: where do you get good but discounted ammo? I wouldn't mind making a car trip to NJ or upstate, if necessary.

See you all soon!

-- City Dweller

[MueveloNYC]

Ammoman in south central NJ and Walmart in Norwalk, CT. Option 2 is to have a friend/family outside the 5 boroughs of New York City purchase it for you since they can receive mail ordered ammo.

Just remember to keep most of the ammo at the range locker at Westside.

[NYC_FA]

Picked up my license and purchase order today!!!!

Dropped off application on 4/1 picked up license on 11/5, 7 months. I think, like anything else, the speed depends on who you get as your investigator and their level of "work ethic". Some seem to be able to do things quicker than others.

On the up side picking up the license was a breeze and thanks to Muevelo I also picked up the Hunting Endorsement Card. I'm going to check out Coliseum Guns in Nassau tomorrow afternoon looking for a P2000 in 9mm. I'm going away on business next week so the 72 hour inspection is going to be an issue if I do find one. I'll probably have to wait a week to take possession.

Two Questions:

1) When I picked up my license and first purchase authorization the person gave me another blank purchase authorization request form. She left me with the impression that I could submit that right after the inspection for the first firearm purchase and not wait three months. This is some sort of a loophole where the purchase authorization they give you when they issue the license does not count as a request. Anyone have any thoughts on this? I'm going to ask again when I get my inspection done so if this is news to you guys I'll report back with definitive answers.

2) Now that I have a NYC handgun license does a NYC rifle license cost as much as it would without the handgun license? Is the process any shorter if you have the hundgun license?

Thanks, can't wait to meet you guys in person at Westside.

[RKBA]

Congrats City Dweller! I must have just missed you, as I was at 1PP for inspection of my new HK45. Look forward to meeting you at West Side.

It was quite an interesting scene in the waiting area at room 152 today: a Limited Business Carry licensee effectively self-canceled his license of 6-7 years (!) for selling his only gun on said license. He argued with the receptionist, and then the incident section sergeant, in front of all of us in the waiting area, so it was impossible not to hear every point of the two successive "conversations". It turns out that this licensee was under the severely mistaken impression that he could (i) just up and sell his one carry pistol, (ii) show up to 1PP the next day to notify them of the sale, (iii) submit a new purchase authorization request form on the spot and receive said purchase authorization immediately, and (iv) go out and buy a new pistol to add to his carry license that day, or perhaps "within a few days". He was totally wrong on so many levels. The sergeant even had to point out to him that he had committed an A misdemeanor for "Failure to notify in writing the Division Head, License Division prior to disposing of [a] handgun...." pursuant to New York State Penal Law § 265.10(7). He was indignant almost to the end, but 80+% ignorant, and 100% wrong. I don't know how that whole exchange affected his premises license & firearms, as he was still sitting there when I left.

PEOPLE! Please read and understand the laws, rules and regulations surrounding your license(s)! As the sergeant pointed out, all NYC licensees are required to know the particulars of the applicable laws and rules affecting their licenses. They ask us that at our interview, and they make us sign an affidavit saying that we understand (and promise to remain current on) said laws and rules. PLEASE invest the time to avoid screwing it all up.

[RKBA]

Must have missed you, too. Congrats and see you at West Side, too (I'll be there tomorrow, putting the first rounds through the HK).


Two Questions:

1) When I picked up my license and first purchase authorization the person gave me another blank purchase authorization request form. She left me with the impression that I could submit that right after the inspection for the first firearm purchase and not wait three months. This is some sort of a loophole where the purchase authorization they give you when they issue the license does not count as a request. Anyone have any thoughts on this? I'm going to ask again when I get my inspection done so if this is news to you guys I'll report back with definitive answers.

I was surprised at that as well, but I think they give the request form to you just as a courtesy. As we all know, you have to request a purchase authorization in writing, for a specific firearm, and they have a standardized form that they require for the request, but the waiting period between purchases doesn't contract for your second purchase, unless I'm mistaken.

FWIW, the incident section sergeant from my previous post ripped into the limited carry business licensee for thinking that he could get a purchase authorization approved on the spot, or even within a few days. He basically implied that the guy was nuts.


2) Now that I have a NYC handgun license does a NYC rifle license cost as much as it would without the handgun license? Is the process any shorter if you have the hundgun license?

The price is the same; I even think they re-charge you the fingerprint fee as well. In "the old days" (the 1990s), when I had my target license, I asked about getting a rifle/shotgun permit one year while I was at 1PP. The PA/investigator said something to the effect of, "well, that's out in Queens, not here, but if you take your handgun license out there, they might even give it to you on the spot." I never did try, but it would seem to me that if the same licensing authority just approved you for handguns, then why would they need to conduct all of the checking over again for a long gun permit? Oh, wait, I was trying to use logic and reason....never mind.

Again, congratulations!

[ironchef]

Looks like we have a batch of new HK aficionados and all around gun enthusiats! Congrats to everyone on getting their permits in what is one of the toughest cities to own a firearm. I look forward to meeting everyone. I'm usually at Westside on Saturdays but always up for getting together on a weekday night to compare toys and talk guns. Cheers!

[MueveloNYC]

I think I posted earlier that a long barrel (rifle/shotty license) is a lot faster if you have your handgun license since they have your background on file. You still have to fill out the whole application and all the fees and get refingerprinted (since it's a seperate system). I got mine in only 4 weeks. Might take longer now since it's hunting season. The application for the rifle/shotgun permit is on page 1 of this FAQ which links to the PDF on NYPD's site.

As for the extra purchase order request (this is a request for the actual purchase order) form that's for you to keep in case you do plan on asking for another one. You mail that in then they send you a letter saying your purchase order request is ready and to come pick it up.

[WicKeDMD]

Congratulations to those who finally received their approval letters! I’m still eagerly awaiting my letter for an interview. I’ve been waiting a little over 3 months now and am afraid to admit that I feel like my application has been thrown to the bottom of the pile. Is waiting over 3 months for an interview letter normal? When would generally be an appropriate time to call and inquire regarding my applications status? I know that it varies from case to case but it seems like most people have their interviews early on and do most of their waiting for their final approval letter.

[MueveloNYC]

As I stated in the FAQ, the wait period can be anywhere from 3 months to 18 months. Mine took 18 months. Others have reported 6-9 months on average.

[ironchef]

I'm patiently waiting on another purchase authorization. Called 1PP earlier today and they indicated they were still processing but I should be hearing from them soon. That is slightly longer than normal (its been a tad over a month). My past two experiences have been exactly a month's wait.

[RKBA]

So, ironchef, a "tad over a month" since you submitted the request, and you're still waiting. May I ask when was the last time you added a firearm to your license? A tad over three months ago, or longer, or shorter? The reason I ask is that I'm wondering how long to wait before submitting my first purchase request (after receiving my new license and adding my first firearm). Thanks.

[ironchef]

You'll definitely have to wait three months before submitting the request. My last firearm was added on my license June, 30th. I submitted my purchase authorization request September 30th by mail. On average, it is about a month processing time, so October 30th and today is November 6th. I'm on track, hopefully next week at the latest.

I know some people who submitted a request under the three month wait and it got bounced. If you take into account the three month wait and processing time, its usually four months total. So in one calendar year, conceivably you should be able to squeeze in 3 pistol purchases.

Best thing to do is after submitting it, give it a couple of weeks or so and call 1PP to verified they received it. Then when time comes that the authorization should be coming in, call 1PP again to double check the processing. Sounds like a huge hassle, which it is. But unfortunately, its the City we live in and the rule and regs we have to follow.

[MueveloNYC]

I called yesterday to request a request form for a purchase order and they said that they're overwhelmed. Hopefully it'll come soon then wait another 3 months for another purchase order. Other states are reporting a run on guns as well:

Colorado:
http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_10910395

Same thing in Lakewood: "I was selling guns before I even opened the door," said George Horne, owner of The Gun Room. "It's gone completely mad. Everyone is buying everything I've got on the shelves. Sales have been crazy."

Utah:
http://www.sltrib.com/Utah/ci_10912220?source=rv

While many avid gun owners now are buying $3,000 worth of guns, accessories and spare parts instead of the more typical $1,000, they aren't the only ones stocking up, according to Bunten. He has seen a big increase in people wanting to learn how to use the large assault rifles by signing up for classes at the store.
"I've seen a wider demographic of customers. There are more and more professionals. I see doctors getting assault weapons instead of just their hunting rifles," Bunten said.

[ironchef]

There was doctor at Westside last Saturday. He brought in a $15,000 over-under shotgun. It was completely custom and beautiful.

[NYC_FA]

I'm not a DR but I fall into the "professional" category. I have a ridiculous AR build designed and layed out on paper that I'm planning on doing the day I move out of the city and into the burbs. Might do it sooner and keep it at the vacation house upstate but I'm not sure how legal that is. I guess with the upcoming political / legal changes I should find out and get on it.

[RKBA]

I have a ridiculous AR build designed and layed out on paper that I'm planning on doing the day I move out of the city and into the burbs.

Sounds juicy - do tell!



I guess with the upcoming political / legal changes I should find out and get on it.

Uhhh, yup. You may find the stores a little crowded these days....



Might do it sooner and keep it at the vacation house upstate but I'm not sure how legal that is.

I've researched this extensively, including speaking to an attorney referred to me by NYSRPA, and even trying to inquire at the R&S section in Queens :eek:. I am not a lawyer, but based on my reading of the statutes and rules, and based on the legal advice I've received, I'm convinced it is 100% lawful, so long as you follow the applicable federal and state laws.

A helpful place to start is the judge's opinion in Richmond Boro #1, the seminal case that challenged the NYC AWB (http://www.nysrpa.org/files/richmond_boro_v_nyc1.pdf, starting at page 12 of the PDF):


Local Law 78 does not prohibit city residents from receiving CMP-issued rifles nor from purchasing M-1 Garand rifles. It requires only that they store and use these weapons outside city limits. Nothing in the applicable federal laws or regulations requires a CMP club or its members to store or practice with these rifles in New York City or at any particular site. Plaintiffs real complaint then is not conflict between federal and local law but personal inconvenience, since they are barred from keeping assault weapons in their homes and from practicing with them at their club's Staten Island rifle range. But such inconvenience is of no legal import. Home storage of government-issued weapon is only permitted under federal regulation; it is not mandated. 32 C.F.R. section 543.17(g)(5)(ii). The only storage site actively "encouraged" by federal regulation is storage at military or police facilities. 32 C.F.R. section 543.17(g)(5)(vi). Since such storage would necessarily require civilians to travel at least some distance from their homes to gain access to their rifles, and since such access might further be limited by the hours when such facilities are open to the public, it necessarily follows that no link exists between the federal interest in promoting civilian marksmanship and the site where persons store their weapons. Similarly, since federal law does not require CMP clubs to maintain their own ranges, the fact that plaintiffs will not be able to use assault rifles on their Staten Island range but will have to use some other facility does not evidence a conflict requiring preemption.

Plaintiffs cite as a further conflict New York City's ban on three rifles-the Ml, M14, and M16-specifically prescribed by federal regulation for use in CMP matches. 32 C.F.R. section 544.52(a)-(c). Here again, there is no real conflict. Local Law 78 does not prohibit city residents from using such weapons in CMP matches. It simply stands as a practical bar to any such matches being held in New York City and to city residents practicing with M1, M14, or M16 rifles within the five boroughs. The applicable federal laws and regulations nowhere require that any CMP matches be held in New York City. Indeed, they do not specifically require that any CMP matches be held other than the National Matches at Camp Perry, Ohio. The regulations, merely provide that regional and state CMP matches may be held in conjunction with NRA championships. 31 C.F.R. section 544.4(d). The court is convinced that the federal interest in promoting civilian marksmanship does not depend on competitive matches being held in New York City. Thus Local Law 78's prohibition against possession of M1, M14, and M16 rifles within the city is not in conflict with the CMP.

Those plaintiffs who have purchased M-1 Garand rifles from the federal government claim that they cannot possibly comply with both federal and local law since, at the time of acquisition, they signed a sworn statement that they were acquiring the weapon for personal use and not for resale or disposition. 32 C.F.R. section 621.2(a)(3). They submit that it is impossible for them to dispose of these guns and bring themselves into compliance with Local Law 78 without thereby violating federal regulations. In fact, plaintiffs could comply with both federal and local law by either returning their Garand rifles to the federal government or by storing them out of New York City. The federal government's obvious concerns that Garand rifles not be acquired for resale or transfer to unauthorized persons is in no way undermined by Local Law 78.

As noted at the outset the primary objective of the CMP is the promotion of marksmanship skills among civilians who may, be called upon to serve in the armed forces in time of war. Nothing in the record indicates that the development of accurate marksmanship is dependent upon the exclusive use of semiautomatic weapons or ammunition firing devices that store large numbers of rounds. Civilian marksmanship can thus still be practiced by plaintiffs within New York City in a real and meaningful way so long as they do not use proscribed weapons. To the extent plaintiffs do wish to use assault weapons, whether to complete their annual CMP certification or to prepare for or participate in certain competitive matches, their continued ability to do so outside New York City suffices to ensure that the federal goals of the CMP and the public safety concerns of Local Law 78 can both be realized without conflict.

[emphasis is mine, of course]

It's late, so here's a brief, simplified summary explanation:

- Within NYS (excluding NYC), there are no licenses required for long guns or shotguns (NOTE: I don't think any of the other big NY cities require licenses to possess long guns or shotguns, but I haven't bothered to check).

- Acquisition, possession and disposition of long guns and shotguns within NYS (excluding NYC) is permitted, so long as you're not a prohibited person under NYS or Federal law and you comply with applicable laws.

- The NYC AWB is a ban on possession and disposition within the city of NY of certain defined long guns and shotguns. The features-based part of the definition is 1-factor, rather than 2-factor, but the commissioner has the power to add any weapon to the prohibited list, so consider the NYC ban comprehensive.

- HOWEVER, so long as you (i) acquire, (ii) always possess, and (iii) if applicable, dispose of, a NYC-defined AW completely outside of NYC, the NYC AWB does not apply. This is despite the fact that your legal residence may be within NYC.

- The NYS AWB is still, of course, 100% applicable, so any such long gun or shotgun would have to be compliant with the NYS ban.

The key is finding an FFL who (i) understands all of this and (ii) who is willing to make the transfer to a person whose legal residence is NYC. Many FFLs, particularly those "near" NYC, don't want the hassle/risk/whatever from processing such a transaction, even though such a transfer is perfectly legal.

Note that the FFL does not have to be a NYS dealer, either. Under federal law, a resident of one state may purchase a long gun from an FFL in another state in an over-the-counter sale, so long as the long gun is lawful for possession by the purchaser in both states.

Again, I am not a lawyer (but I play one on the internets); your mileage may vary. For me, it's probably an LMT gas-piston in 6.8SPC, with a separate barrel, bolt and bolt carrier in 5.56.... :D

[NYC_FA]

My wife is a trial attorney and she is researching this for me as we speak. Of course whatever she tells me will not count as legal advice to any of you but I'll pass her opinion on.

As far as the AR build...... I'll give all the details soon and bring it to an outdoor range outside NYC for you guys to play with (as long as you bring something in trade!)

[MueveloNYC]

Guys I have some very bad news.

Westside Range is in a huge bind right now. A few months back, someone renting a rifle at the range committed suicide. There was an article in the Post about it:
http://www.nypost.com/seven/06172008/news/regionalnews/gunshot_suicide_at_range_115906.htm

Anyways, it wasn't publicly discussed here since it was still in court, but the court has ruled that starting next week, the range is not allowed to rent rifles to anyone that does not have an NYC rifle/shotgun license. This includes current members who have pistol licenses as well. Even worse, this also means the public will no longer be allowed to rent or shoot anything at the range. These classes and rentals has been the primary source of revenue for the range, and this ruling will basically drive them out of business.

Note that the law itself has not changed. Other ranges in the state, and within NYC can still allow anyone to shoot/rent rifles without a license. The court is bascially mandating that Westside Range do this, even though something like this would need to be dictated by the Legislative branch, not the Judicial branch, as the law currently states otherwise.

Westside no longer has the funds to appeal or fight this ruling, despite the fact that its obviously an unfair ruling as it's completely arbitrary. If anyone knows anyone who would be willing to help out, especially on the legal side, please contact me and I'll put you in touch with the management of Westside.

I have also contact the board of directors of the NRA who said they'll discuss this with the NRA legal team and NYSRPA. But we still need all the help we can get to keep the last public range in NYC open and running.

DISCLAIMER: I am not part of Westside Range's management, but I am a member of the range.

[NYC_FA]

If they close West Side where are the NYPD supposed to shoot???? I know they have a range for recruits and qualifications but I was under the impression that most of the existing officers practice at West Side. Am I mistaken about this?

[MueveloNYC]

NYPD practices at City Island, but that's a hike. Most of the NYPD at Westside are gun enthusiasts themselves, which is why they shoot there. If the range closes because they don't have enough revenue, I don't know what's going to happen.

[NYC_FA]

I didn't realize the rifles they rent were Hi-point 9mm. How are those NYC legal? I would think they would fall under the category of "assault rife".

[MueveloNYC]

The range is also an FFL, and thus is exempt. Technically the Ruger 10/22's in .22lr are also assault rifles since the mag capacity is greater than 5 for a rifle.

[MueveloNYC]

NRA HQ is now informed of the situation and will be monitoring it closely. Tom King, the president of the NYSRPA (NY State Rifle & Pistol Association) is now going to get involved. I hope they can help us out. At this point I'm not going to post progress here since this is a public forum. Once the situation is resolved or any major changes/updates come along, I'll post them here. However, if you can offer any help in any ways, please feel free to send me a PM and I'll put you in contact with the partners at Westside.

[ironchef]

Ran into RKBA at Westside range yesterday. He was nice enough to let me try out his brand spanking new HK45. Feels nice in the hands and shoots really well. Definitely different feel than a USP (I have a USP Tactical .45). Thanks RKBA, pleasure chatting with you and I hope to see you around the range more. Will definitely let you try out my HK toys.

Additionally, I put in my application for rifle/shotgun permit in NYC. I got there pretty early and the ladies were very nice. I was in and out within 30-45 minutes. They told me it would be roughly 4 weeks. They haven't had a huge influx of new applications because of the recent elections. It is hunting season and they do get a little busier than normal. Can't wait!

[MueveloNYC]

nice hurry up so we can compete in .308 shoot off. :)

[ironchef]

i can only go as fast as the NYPD allows me to.... :D

and it would be no contest. i don't know my arsehole from my elbow when it comes to rifle shooting. you'd win. :D

[MueveloNYC]

nah Crestfall would win. He's 10X more patient than both of us... :p

[Brooklyn]

First, thanks to Muevelo and all the other posters for all the excellent info. This thread is easily the best resource I've found on the topic of NYC licensing. I'm thinking about applying, and I have a few questions:

1. Do I need to submit letters of reference if I am a natural-born US citizen?

2. For the Arrest Information section, do I need to disclose traffic tickets for minor infractions like speeding or having an expired registration?

3. Is anyone familiar with the Metropolitan Rod and Gun Club in Brooklyn?

Thanks again!

[ironchef]

1. No letters of reference are required on citizenship status. What is needed is a copy of your birth certificate (make a copy but bring the original). I would bring US Passport (up to date one, not an expired one) with you just in case. If one is not a US citizen, then paperwork documenting your status would be required (green card, etc.).

2. Unless you were incarcerated and/or taken into custody meaning arrested and booked (not just conviction alone) then I would assume the above traffic infractions should not be counted.

3. Heard of them, never been to the location.

[MueveloNYC]

Yes the 2 letters of reference are required from people who know you more than 7 years. They're character references. I'm a US Born citizen as well. What Ironchef was refering to is a letter of good conduct from NYPD if you're not a US Citizen.

Arrest information is just that. Unless the traffic infraction resulted in your arrest, like DUI, excessive speeding, warrant, etc. Then it is not an arrest.

[RKBA]

According to my most recent copy of the Handgun License application instructions, the two relevant questions on the application read as follows:


7. A.) Arrest Information: If you were ever arrested, indicted or summonsed (other than parking violations) for any reason you must answer Yes to question-23 and submit a certificate of disposition....


B.) Summons Information: If you have received a summons for other than a parking violation within the last two years prior to this application you must answer Yes to question-23. You must list the violation and disposition for each summons received.

I am not a lawyer (and I don't have an example in front of me to check), but I'm pretty sure that a speeding ticket or expired registration ticket is a "summons other than a parking violation". Don't give them a reason to reject your application (or accuse you of making a false statement) -- disclose and explain everything.

[ironchef]

Mue,

Regarding the letter of references, can you cite specifically where that is mentioned? I'm not questioning it, but I recalled during my application process I didn't submit these.

I definitely do not recall asking any friends or family to draft reference letters on my behalf. One letter than I had to submit on my own was a notarized one indicating I was a government employee (non-LEO) with no intentions of ever bringing a firearm to the work place. The only other requested letter that I can think of now that is required is one from a designee, a person who would take responsibility of your firearms should something happen to the license holder.

One other letter that is requested sometimes based on your martial status and living situation is from someone in your household (usually spouse, family member or roommate) acknowledging your intent to apply for a firearms permit and that they are okay with it. I live alone so I didn't have submit this.

The above is all from memory, so forgive me if I missed something completely. Mue, you have a better grasp of everything so please shed some light if possible.

[NYC_FA]

I just went through my process and I needed to give two character reference letters. They needed to be from someone, other than a family member, who has known you for at least 7 years. Interestingly, it didn't say they needed to be written by city residents so one of mine was done by a Nassau resident. You will also need a letter by your spouse, roomates or anyone you live with stating exactly word for word " I have no objection to "so and so" having a handgun license and owning a handgun in our home"

As far as speeding tickets go I have no idea and can not advise either way. My suggestion is to call and ask.

The reference letter is not mentioned anywhere. When you get your list of requirements to come to the interview with, it will be listed and asked for then.

[pcs335i]

so are the requirements different for everyone? at least pertaining to what you need to bring to the interview?

[MueveloNYC]

Ironchef, I did one of Crestfall's character reference letters and he just got his license recently. In the application it states exacly what NYC FA wrote.

As for the summons other than parking infractions, I suggest you call 1 PP to ask and confirm.

The reference letter he's referring to is a letter of good conduct if you're not a natural born citizen. Basically its a letter from NYPD stating you're not a felon or a criminal and on record are a law abiding citizen. It's stated in the NYPD FAQ.

My wife also had to write a letter stating she is aware that I am applying for a gun license and has no objection with a firearm in the home. If you live with roomates or a signifcant other, or with family, you will need a letter from them too.

The character reference everyone has to do. You need 2 letters from people who are not family or related to you in any way, and must know you more than 7 years.

[ironchef]

I stand corrected. Maybe it's been too long for me or I'm just getting old. Anyways, these are exactly what the forums are for, to share information. Thanks!

[Javic]

NYC_FA and Mue's follow up hit it on the spot. My license isn't NYC, but it was the same requirements for me in Rockland County. Man getting those 3 dispositions for arrests was a pain in the ass because they were scattered across the state. Even though they were quite a long time ago, still had to get them.

It doesn't matter if you were ever convicted of anything or not, if you got arrested, you have to get a disposition from the court it occurred in. Basically just a letter from them stating the charge, and what the outcome was, even if not guilty or charges dropped.

[MueveloNYC]

Yeah I was lucky since I had a sweaky clean nothing in my name, so I didn't have to do that. (still nothing in my name) :)

[Brooklyn]

OK thanks guys.

I wasn't able to find any mention of the 2 reference letters on the NYPD website or in the application materials. I'm not just overlooking it, right? It sounds like what you're saying is that the letters are not part of the initial application and they're not documented anywhere officially, but based on the experience of other recent applicants, it's likely that I will be asked to provide them when I get to the interview stage.

Are there any other "secret" requirements like this that I might want to know about? Oh, and do the letters need to be from NYS residents? I moved here from out of state not that long ago. I might have to think a bit to come up with 2 NYS residents who've known me for 7 years.

As far as the traffic tickets are concerned, it sounds like it's a gray area. I will try to call and get a direct answer from them. I will let you know what they say.

[MueveloNYC]

Hmm... I just downloaded the PDF, but am pretty sure that this is a requirement as Crestfall got his license just 3 weeks ago, and I was the one who wrote the affidavit for him. I suggest call 1PP to check. The last thing we want is you to do all your work, pay the $400, and your app to get rejected becuase you're missing 2 character references.

As for the reference letters they do not need to be from here, although it's suggested. I applied when I was 22, so to find someone who knew me from 7 years required me to dig to someone from high school, most who were elsewhere. Luckily one of my best friends is an Attorney in Florida, so he sent it on his own letter head. :)

[MueveloNYC]

Updated post #5 on the legality of the GSG-5/p in NY as well as a correction (thanks to the NRA) on that Bill A3447 didn't get ratified despite passing the NY Assembly.

Bill A3447 (banning frangible ammo) while passing the NY House, did not pass the rest of the State Legislature. Thanks to the NRA for pointing this out (any my correction here) as the NY Legislature's website doesn't show that it didn't pass http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=a3447


A03447 Summary:

BILL NO A03447

SAME AS Same as S 2002

SPONSOR Koon

COSPNSR John, Destito, Ramos, Dinowitz, Hooper, Eddington, Perry, Boyland,
Kavanagh, Schimel

MLTSPNSR Bing, Brennan, Colton, Farrell, Gottfried, Heastie, Lavine, McEneny,
Peralta, Pheffer, Walker, Weinstein

Amd SS265.00, 265.01 & 265.02, Pen L

Includes possession of armor piercing, frangible or devastator ammunition as criminal possession of a weapon in the 4th degree and where possession is knowingly with intent to use against another, it shall constitute criminal possession of a weapon in the 3rd degree.

BILL: A03447
DATE: 04/14/2008
MOTION: YEA/NAY: 102/040
BILL NUMBER: A3447

TITLE OF BILL : An act to amend the penal law, in relation to the
possession of armor piercing, frangible or devastator ammunition

PURPOSE OR GENERAL IDEA OF BILL : This bill would amend the
definition of "armor piercing ammunition" to include certain new
construction materials, and would prohibit the possession of
"devastator" and "frangible" ammunition which fractures upon impact
with a human being.

SUMMARY OF SPECIFIC PROVISIONS : Section 1: Amends subdivision 18
of Section 265.00 of the Penal Law to change the definition of "armor
piercing ammunition" to include ammunition constructed of ceramics or
polymer plastics and capable of being used in pistols and revolvers.

Section 2: Adds new subdivision 24 to Section 265.00 of the Penal Law
to define "frangible ammunition" as any ammunition with a projectile
or projectile core composed of hybrid materials, either pressed
together at high pressure or glued together with adhesives, which is
capable of being used in pistols and revolvers and is designed to
fracture or disintegrate upon impact. Adds new subdivision 25 that
defines "devastator ammunition" as ammunition with a projectile or
projectile core which is capable of being used in pistols or revolvers
is designed to explode or detonate upon impact.

Section 3: Amends subdivisions 7 and 8 of Section 265.01 of the Penal
Law to eliminate the element of knowledge from the possession of an
explosive bullet and to eliminate the element of intent from the
possession of armor piercing or frangible ammunitions for purposes of
criminal possession of a weapon in the third degree.

Section 4: Adds two new subdivisions 9 and 10 to subdivision 8 of
Section 265.02 of the Penal Law to provide that a person is guilty of
criminal possession of a weapon in the third degree when such person
knowingly possess and intends to use any devastator ammunition,
frangible ammunition, and any armor piercing ammunition.

Section 5: Sets the effective date for this bill as the first day of
November next succeeding the date on which it shall have become law.

JUSTIFICATION : Police and hospital statistics have shown an
increase in deaths and injuries resulting form increasingly deadly and
horrific types of ammunition. These latest types of ammunition, such
as armor piercing, frangible and devastator ammunition, are designed
to fragment or explode upon impact so as to render survival unlikely.

As technology advances to allow the design and manufacture of
ammunition made of unique substances and of greater destructive force,
we must modernize the penal code to reflect such changes. Currently,
less lethal and destructive ammunitions are subject to criminal
sanctions while the newer and more deadly types of ammunition are not.
By amending existing sanctions to include these newer types of
ammunition, this bill would deter the possession and use of those
ammunitions, consistent with existing provisions.

Furthermore, by removing the element of knowledge in subdivision 7 and
the element of intent in subdivision 8, both in Section 265.01, for
purposes of criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth degree, and
by adding possession of explosive bullets, armor piercing ammunition
or devastator ammunition, with knowledge thereof and with intent to
use the same, law enforcement is better able to address the serious
consequences of the use of such destructive ammunitions.

PRIOR LEGISLATIVE HISTORY :

1996: A. 10690
1997-1998: A.4537
1999-2000: A.1231
2001-2002: A.1206
2003-2004: A.3245
2005-2006: A.2837/S.7693 (Padavan)

FISCAL IMPLICATIONS : None.

EFFECTIVE DATE : This act shall take effect on the first day of
November next succeeding the date on which it shall have become a law.

[ironchef]

Some good news today. I called 1PP just a few minutes ago and they will be mailing out my purchase authorization tomorrow. wooohooo! Can't wait!

[MueveloNYC]

How long ago did you put it in? I need to get one as I want a Buckmark so I can go to Colonial's silhouette target range. Ping ping ping!

[ironchef]

End of September, so roughly a month and a half. A little slow on NYPDs end, but calling every so often to check helps.

[NYC_FA]

Well I have my pistol permit and my P2000 so now it's time to move to "next on the list", so I'm dropping off my rifle application next week. Any idea what the current turnaround time on this is? The reason I ask is that I want to order a custom bolt-action and it takes about six to ten weeks to deliver. I figure I can order it and just have it sit at the FFL but I don't want it sitting there too long. Thanks.

[Brooklyn]

According to the folks on the phone at 1PP, you need three character reference letters. The writers must be non-family members who have known you for at least two years, and are preferably residents of New York State. I pressed them about this since I am a recent transplant, and they basically said that they very strongly prefer that at least one of the letters be from a NY resident, although they wouldn't go as far as to say flat out that the application would be rejected without one. They did point out that the letter doesn't need to say anything about a handgun license application, so the writer doesn't necessarily need to know what it is for. It just needs to say that they've known you for X years and that you are a person of good character, blah blah blah.

As far as speeding tickets, they said that the kind of summons they are interested in is a "summons in lieu of arrest", i.e. a piece of paper that requires you to show up in court at a later date. A run-of-the-mill traffic ticket where you just mail in the fine does not need to be reported.

[ironchef]

NYC_FA: If you have the NYC pistol permit, turn around time on the NYC rifle/shotgun permit would be 4-6 weeks. If you didn't have the NYC pistol permit, it would probably take about 3-4 months. The great thing about the rifle/shotgun permit is you do not need to put a firearm on it to active it, unlike the pistol permit.

I put my rifle/shotgun permit application in last week. Already shopping for a nice .308 bolt action.

[MueveloNYC]

I concur - I got mine in 4 weeks because I have had my pistol permit already. It can take longer if you do not have a pistol license.

Brooklyn thanks for the updated info. I'll add this into the FAQ. It's good to hear they reduced the time length to 2 years instead of 7. 1PP rejected someone last year since they knew the person greater for 2 years but less than 7, so it's good to see that they have changed it to a more reasonable amount of time.

[NYC_FA]

Iron, pm sent re .308 bolt action.

[MueveloNYC]

Finally more people to shoot .308 rifles with me. I was getting lonely going to the outdoor range by myself! LOL

[ironchef]

NYC_FA: Thanks buddy!

Mue: I'll be joining you soon enough. Just need to find the right rig!

[MueveloNYC]

Interesting court ruling. Basically NY tried to revoke this guy's license since his wife had access to his pistol and committed suicide by shooting herself with it. The state wanted to revoke the license on the fact that it was not locked in his dwelling. It went to court, and finally DC vs. Heller is cited. It's unfortunate that his wife killed himself, but if there was a home invasion where she needed to protect herself, she at least would have access to the firearm to defend herself.

http://www.nysrpa.org/files/colaiacovo_v_dormer.pdf

Summary:

In a landmark decision and order issued on October 30, 2008, Acting Justice Gary J. Weber wrote, In Heller the Court held that there is a personal right to bear arms protected by the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution. The Court further held that requirements that a handgun be rendered inoperable, or locked in such a manner so that it is not immediately accessible when possessed in the owner’s dwelling also transgresses upon this right to bear arms, because the 2nd Amendment recognizes that the right to bear arms includes a corollary right to self defense … Justice Weber went on to write that, “Simply put, the State of New York and its agencies are no longer in a position to require that a handgun be stored in an inoperable condition or otherwise locked up if it is otherwise legally present in the owner’s dwelling.”

[ironchef]

Good info Mue! Score one for gun owners in NYS and DC v. Heller.

[NYC_FA]

Interesting court ruling. Basically NY tried to revoke this guy's license since his wife had access to his pistol and committed suicide by shooting herself with it. The state wanted to revoke the license on the fact that it was not locked in his dwelling. It went to court, and finally DC vs. Heller is cited. It's unfortunate that his wife killed himself, but if there was a home invasion where she needed to protect herself, she at least would have access to the firearm to defend herself.

http://www.nysrpa.org/files/colaiacovo_v_dormer.pdf

Summary:

I wonder if this will have any effect on the NYC rule about needing to own a safe with 4+ handguns.

[Javic]

Finally more people to shoot .308 rifles with me. I was getting lonely going to the outdoor range by myself! LOL

I've actually been wanting to pick up a .308 for at least a year now, but unfortunately the house came first, and is probably still going to be the primary focus of my extra funds for some time to come. I miss being able to buy toys at will :(

That being said, I'd be more than happy to come shoot yours haha

[MueveloNYC]

Well that's why you have to get to get the wife involved. My wife now has her license paperwork in queue, and will probably take her to Philly (where you don't need a license to fire/handle any guns) to try a few out to see what she likes best. I also have a purchase order for a Buckmark coming in! This means I exercised every 90 day buying window for 2008:

HK USPc, Remington 700p, Benelli M1 Super 90, Buckmark (assuming I get the purchase order before new years)

[ironchef]

Well, it's been weeks since I was told by NYPD that they were going to send along my purchase authorization request. After two weeks of follow-up and run around, today they realized they sent out the pick up letter to me on November 21. Since I obviously didn't receive it because I was calling, they told me to stop in next week with my permit and they would issue one to me. Their system is so messed up....uuggggg.

[Lion]

NYC_FA: If you have the NYC pistol permit, turn around time on the NYC rifle/shotgun permit would be 4-6 weeks. If you didn't have the NYC pistol permit, it would probably take about 3-4 months. The great thing about the rifle/shotgun permit is you do not need to put a firearm on it to active it, unlike the pistol permit.

I put my rifle/shotgun permit application in last week. Already shopping for a nice .308 bolt action.

I'm handing in my rilfe/shotgun app this week. There is no place to note about the handgun permit. Do they "just know"?

PS: Waited the 90 days and finally got to mail my second purchase permit in.

[ironchef]

You should be submitting a copy of your pistol permit along with a copy of your driver's license. That is how they will know.

[Lion]

You should be submitting a copy of your pistol permit along with a copy of your driver's license. That is how they will know.

Thanks!:)

[MueveloNYC]

Updated post #6 with the news story of the NY gun owner who stopped an armed home invasion: http://www.hkpro.com/forum/showpost.php?p=588219&postcount=6

[ironchef]

Updated post #6 with the news story of the NY gun owner who stopped an armed home invasion: http://www.hkpro.com/forum/showpost.php?p=588219&postcount=6

Try to come in standing up...and you'll go out lying down! :D

[MueveloNYC]

[EVENT]Tell the Brady Campaign in person why we need 2nd amendment rights

The Brady Campaign is having an open event this Thursday in NYC on the topic of the 2nd Amendment, post DC vs. Heller Supreme Court Ruling.

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=411695

RSVP in the link in that thread and attend. Let them know why (in a constructive manner) why 2nd Amendment rights equate to safety. Feel free to cite the quotes and links in the FAQ if you do go.

[Javic]

Would actually be very interested in going to this. Unfortunately it conflicts with my office holiday party :(

Whoever's going, take a camcorder :)

[ironchef]

I tentatively plan on going to this. I wasn't able to get ahold of anyone at the bar association to clarify whether questions will be taken from the audience and if any recording was allowed.

[Lion]

Finally dropped off my rifle/shotgun app today. Of course I had to ask questions, here is some of the fun stuff:

1. Was grilled as to why I brought a copy of my birth cert instead of the original.

2. When she saw the copy of my handgun permit she asked why I included it. I told her it was just FYI. I asked if it would help, she asked if it was a carry, I almost laughed out loud. This was the good part though. I actually said that there was no chance of me getting a carry. She asked if I owned a business. I said yes. She asked if it was a lucrative cash business (not even close but I decided to go with it.) I responded with "what is lucrative". I was then told that they were not allowed to let me know how much cash was lucrative but I could apply at 1PP if I liked.

3. Just for kicks I asked why I was getting fingerprinted again if I had just done it this year at 1PP for my handgun permit. Was told "we're not connected to that system". I got a kick out of that answer and handed over my $94.25 fingerprinting fee.

Anyway, about an hour later I was done. I did get one useful piece of info out of my experience though and here it is: If anyone has a rifle or shotgun listed on their permit and would like to remove it from their permit by placing it at another residence they own outside the city you just fill out the regular sale/purchase form with your info as both the buyer and the seller. You include a utility bill from you non-NYC address and mail that back with the sale/purchase for to Kew Gardens and your good to go.

[ironchef]

Ah, I should have mentioned that you needed to bring originals with you. They are sticklers for that. I remember being asked the same question, then yanked out my original birth certificate and the lady pretty much smiled and compared the original with the copy and that was it.

I'm curious as to why they questioned the inclusion of the copy of your pistol permit? I certainly did not get asked that. Sounds like typical NYPD runaround. I'm still waiting to hear from them to pick up the rifle/shotgun permit. Its been about 4 weeks.

I picked up my purchase authorization today from 1PP. Almost had to sit and wait a while but luckily I knew someone and they were able to breeze me and in out quickly. Now for the shopping.

[MueveloNYC]

Jakfrost provided some more URL resources to NY/NYC/Federal firearms codes which I've updated in post #1.

[NYC_FA]

Question on the 90 day wait for a purchase authorization and the purchase:

1) When does my 90 days start? Is it from the date when my last purchase authorization was issued or from the date I last registered a firearm?
For me that's roughly a twenty day difference so it's worth knowing.

2) When I purchase a new handgun is it the FFLs responsibility to provide the ballistics sample to the NYPD or do I provide it? I realize I don't have to create it but do I bring it in a sealed envelope to 1PP or does the FFL send it directly?
If it is the FFLs responsibility, are there any ramifications to ME if they don't send it? (My previous purchase was used so this did not apply).

Thanks, I know I can always count on this thread.

[ironchef]

NYC_FA:

1. Your 90 day wait begins after your last pistol registration/inspection at 1PP. Once they place a new gun on your permit, that is when the 90 days starts, not when they issue you the purchase authoriation.

2. If you are buying a new gun over the Internet or from a location outside of the City and have it sent to the FFL, then the responsibility falls on YOU, the buyer to make sure it comes with a ballistics round. Your FFL should ask you if it is a new or used gun and basically let you know. But you as the buyer should know.

Because if the new gun comes into your FFL without the casing, your FFL will either have to send the gun out to have the ballistics finger print done at your expense or send the gun back to your seller indicating they can't accept the pistol without the ballistics round.

When the ballistics round is in hand, your FFL retains it and sends it to the State, not the NYPD because this is a State-wide requirement, not just NYPD. The FFL would log the ballistics round. I've never heard of any FFL not submitting it nor any consequences to the gun owner if it wasn't submitted. MueveloNYC has a link posted which leads to an article that indicates the ballistics finger print cataloging is a waste of money and time. It illustrates that the system has not provided any assistance in apprehending a perp in a firearms related crime because all the guns registered on it belong to law-abiding citizens.

[NYC_FA]

Thanks Iron, that was all direct and helpful! I know the ballistics requirement is a joke but hey it's the state we live in. For some reason I was under the impression that I had to provide it (again, not create it, just provide it). Better this way because it's less work for me.

Has there ever been any rationale given to the 90 day wait? Just curious what maniac / terrorist / gang member / out of work auto worker hunting wall street bankers this is supposed to stop.

[MueveloNYC]

Yeah when purchasing a new firearm, they need to ship it with a sealed ballistic case. For example, Kimber doesn't do this, so you'll have to ask the FFL to send it to Kimber to create a sealed case so that it can be sold to you in NY.

As for the 90 day wait, it's totally arbitrary, just like how NJ now is trying to have a 1 month wait between guns.

[Lion]

NYC_FA:

1. Your 90 day wait begins after your last pistol registration/inspection at 1PP. Once they place a new gun on your permit, that is when the 90 days starts, not when they issue you the purchase authoriation.

2. If you are buying a new gun over the Internet or from a location outside of the City and have it sent to the FFL, then the responsibility falls on YOU, the buyer to make sure it comes with a ballistics round. Your FFL should ask you if it is a new or used gun and basically let you know. But you as the buyer should know.

Because if the new gun comes into your FFL without the casing, your FFL will either have to send the gun out to have the ballistics finger print done at your expense or send the gun back to your seller indicating they can't accept the pistol without the ballistics round.

When the ballistics round is in hand, your FFL retains it and sends it to the State, not the NYPD because this is a State-wide requirement, not just NYPD. The FFL would log the ballistics round. I've never heard of any FFL not submitting it nor any consequences to the gun owner if it wasn't submitted. MueveloNYC has a link posted which leads to an article that indicates the ballistics finger print cataloging is a waste of money and time. It illustrates that the system has not provided any assistance in apprehending a perp in a firearms related crime because all the guns registered on it belong to law-abiding citizens.

Always helpful information on this post. Heres another question, what happens if you mail the purchase auth in a little early? I mailed mine 2 weeks ago, but I was exactly 90 days from the ISSUE of my first auth not the listing on my permit.

[ironchef]

NYC_FA: You pretty much summed it up with that statement. It is supposedly to curb binge spending spree for someone intent on creating mass chaos or perhaps invade Roosevelt or Randall's island, LOL. Why 90 days? I have no clue, most restricted states are at 30 days at most. That additional month of processing is ridiculous as well.

What are you planning to get? Seems like several of us on the NY forum are getting ready to make purchase just in time for Christmas. :D

[ironchef]

Lion,

One of three scenarios might take place.

1. If you are lucky, they will just issue it. I would count your blessings and go buy some lotto afterwards.
2. They will see it is not within the allowable timetable and kick it. Send you a letter back telling you so. Don't toss that letter! Keep it for when you submit again to show you were just off a little bit. I've seen this happen before.
3. If NYPD is nice, they will hold your request till the allowable time and issue it accordingly when the correct date rolls around. I've heard this happen once or twice just because the requestor was off by a few days. If its several weeks, I'm not too sure.

How come everyone is online all of a sudden??? Doesn't anyone work??? :D

[Lion]

Lion,

One of three scenarios might take place.

1. If you are lucky, they will just issue it. I would count your blessings and go buy some lotto afterwards.
2. They will see it is not within the allowable timetable and kick it. Send you a letter back telling you so. Don't toss that letter! Keep it for when you submit again to show you were just off a little bit. I've seen this happen before.
3. If NYPD is nice, they will hold your request till the allowable time and issue it accordingly when the correct date rolls around. I've heard this happen once or twice just because the requestor was off by a few days. If its several weeks, I'm not too sure.

How come everyone is online all of a sudden??? Doesn't anyone work??? :D

Thanks. Was at least within a few days so hopefully I'm lucky (and hopefully if I'm not I get the response right away so I can submit again).

Work? I'm multi-tasking! (actually wish I had a little more work in the pipeline)

[ironchef]

I would say after you have submitted the request and 30 full days pass, call NYPD Licensing at 1PP after 2pm to check your status. They should confirm they received it and just give you an estimate on how much more time it will take, if any.

[Lion]

I would say after you have submitted the request and 30 full days pass, call NYPD Licensing at 1PP after 2pm to check your status. They should confirm they received it and just give you an estimate on how much more time it will take, if any.

Thanks for the advice. "If any"? I though it was min. 90 more days from after you put the app. in. Only 30?

[MueveloNYC]

he's just giving a time to get a status update. They're definitely not going to be done with it by then... Just give you an approx date of when it might be ready.

From past experience it's usually 90 days after your last purchase order + 90 days for them to process the purchase order request is usually typically how long it takes...

[ironchef]

Sorry for the confusion, I meant to tack on an additional 30 days to the 90 day wait. So you've waited 90 days, you submit your purchase authorization request. Wait a minimum of another 30 days and start inquiring about when you will actually get it.

[NYC_FA]

NYC_FA:

What are you planning to get? Seems like several of us on the NY forum are getting ready to make purchase just in time for Christmas. :D


It's a toss up right now.... I might get a Walther P22 just because I could probably shoot it at my vacation home. We have some land and a .22 wouldn't bother anyone. Ammo is cheap and I can go plinking around the property.

Also looking into a Glock 22 (.40) with the Glock laser / light attached as my permanent home protection piece.

Obviously, if I can get a P30 with ten round mags that would trump any of those and be my next purchase.

I'm not set on anything I just know I want to buy something:490:

[MueveloNYC]

just say no to .40SW. 9mm +p gold dots or .45acp. ;)

(also keep in mind buying/procuring .40SW in NYC is going to be hard unless you like paying through the nose for it)

9mm is easiest since that's what NYPD uses, so there's always places just outside the city that sell it.

[ironchef]

I have to agree with Mue on this one as well. 40 S&W is too snappy a round for my personal liking. And for the same amount of money, you can get a .45 which is much easier and nicer to shoot. Plus you'll get some nice stopping power. 9mm is THE alternative. Cheaper and the +P runs hot enough that you'll get some good defense loads from the different brands. My home protection piece is what a few of us on here use as well, the USPc chambered in 9mm with either 1) Speer Gold Dots 2) Ranger T 3) Gold Sabres 4) HST or Hydra-Shoks

A few of us are on the .22 kick right now. We're all looking into or have already gotten Browning Buckmarks.

[MueveloNYC]

LOL yeah we should start up a competition target team now that all of us are 7"+ buckmarks. LOL

[MueveloNYC]

actually you should probably remove that as it's potentially offensive to some... I just don't want the moderators to shut down this thread for non-relevant topics. :(

Maybe we can start a general HK-related chat thread for this...

EDIT: Here we go...
http://hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?p=706452

[Lion]

I would say after you have submitted the request and 30 full days pass, call NYPD Licensing at 1PP after 2pm to check your status. They should confirm they received it and just give you an estimate on how much more time it will take, if any.

Been calling every day for about a week now. Either i get no answer, or if someone does answer I get this response:

Me: Hi, would like to check the status of a purchase permit.
Them: "Oh, "insert name here" is out sick today, try again tomorrow" *click*
ME: :170000:

[MueveloNYC]

Yea, that's one of the biggest issues is that they're severely understaffed, especially when gun ownership is skyrocketing. I don't think they've expanded the staff in years, so they have a lot of work load...

NYC/NYPD in general needs to computerize this process to really drop down this paperwork. I still don't understand why we can't renew licenses online much like the DMV does, then mail in any paperwork for significant changes.

[Lion]

Yea, that's one of the biggest issues is that they're severely understaffed, especially when gun ownership is skyrocketing. I don't think they've expanded the staff in years, so they have a lot of work load...

NYC/NYPD in general needs to computerize this process to really drop down this paperwork. I still don't understand why we can't renew licenses online much like the DMV does, then mail in any paperwork for significant changes.

To me it seems like they would do it this way on purpose. More reason to make us wait and wait and wait.................

[MueveloNYC]

I don't think it's intentional honestly - they're seriously understaffed. If it makes you feel any better, I'm still waiting for confirmation of my renewal.

[MueveloNYC]

A couple of us have called about what's taking so long for purchase orders placed way back in December. Apparently they only have one person now doing these now and with the huge influx of people buying up of guns, apparently there's quite a backlog.

[Lion]

I actually got thru last Friday and they told me they were just finishing up November. She told me they would be starting December this week and to give another call at the end of the week. I hear Muev on 1PP being understaffed, but every time I've gone to 1PP it seems like so many people are "working" in the handgun dept.

[MueveloNYC]

I dunno. From their banter going on it sounds like a lot of those people are hanging out and don't necessarily work for licensing.

Anyways my renewal just came today. Pretty fast (although figured it would be since they just reprinted the card, changed the date and mailed it back). I guess as long as you filled out all the paperwork it's no big deal. I mailed in all the paperwork on Jan. 22nd, so probably got there on the 24th (the weekend) so 7 business days turn around. Not bad at all...

If it makes you feel better Lion, I sent in a purchase order for a buckmark at the end of December so I'll be looking at late March at this rate. LOL

[NYC_FA]

I just mailed my purchase authorization request in today. From the sound of things I wont hold my breath waiting for it.

[MueveloNYC]

yeah seriously. Looks like they're maxing out the 180 day time frame total as I reported on the initial FAQ. Maybe August if you're lucky. Maybe I'll just stick to long guns after this.

[Lion]

Got thru on the phone yesterday. Was told that I should have my answer in the mail in one to two weeks. I mailed in the first week of Dec. You're right Muev - they really max out the days. On the brighter side, my new project is only a few block from 1PP which will make my trips there that much easier.