Vector Arms V93 First Impressions

[TStafford]

The rifle is used and looked to be in very good condition. I had my first chance to take apart the rifle and look it over. The only thing I noticed was that there where some stanag claw marks on the top of the receiver and that the inside of the receiver was not black but it did not seem to have a layer of rust. I added some lubricant and swapped the regular butt stock for a collapsible butt stock. I then headed for the local indoor range.

I fired several rounds at 25 yards which was the indoor range's max distance. The rear sight was set to the notch (under 200 meters) and was difficult to see. I rotated the site to the 200 meter mark and used the peep. It was also difficult to see through but the groups were better. It is a little dark on the firing line at the range so that would allow for the rear sights being hard to see. The front site inside the circle was very easy to see. The 200 meter setting seemed to move the bullet impact up by 2 inches at 25 yards. I will test the sights more when I have a chance to get to the outdoor 100 yard range. I noticed that the empty shells were very dirty but not dented on the side like the .308 rifles dent shells.

Problems: I had several failures to eject or stovepipes where the empty shell hung in the exit port. I opened up the rifle and added some lube. That is when I created my 2nd problem. I bumped the bolt head and it locked back to the bolt carrier causing the locking wheels to pop out. This means that you now can not insert the bolt assembly back into the gun. I had to work for several minutes to get the bolt head off of the assembly. I then had to get someone help me to insert the bolt head back onto the bolt assembly. This required that the locking level be held in with pliers while the bolt head was pushed in and then rotated back in place. This would be a tricky procedure which would require 2 people or maybe a special tool. When I inserted the bolt assembly back into the rifle I noticed that the gas tube to bolt assembly had some wiggle to it. I fired 30 more rounds without incident. I fired about 100 rounds total. Groups were about 2 or 3 inches at 25 yards. I think if I could been able to see the rear site better the groups would have improved.

Questions: Should there be wiggle between the gas tube and the bolt assembly? I could more the gas tube to where it would line up better with the bolt head. Should the empty shells be more dirty that an AR15?

[dude]

Not sure what you mean by 'gas tube'. There is no gas tubes on HK's.

The brass will be absolutely filthy- no doubt.

As for the stuck bolt. If you remove the bolt/carrier assembly and push the bolt back, the rollers will pop out. Easiest way to get the whole schabang back in the gun is to reverse it and cram it into the back of the gun. That will pop the rollers back in and push the bolt forward. Remove, reverse, and reassemble. On one of mine, I can just pull the bolt forward by hand and don't need the 'cram' move.

[edman99]

Easiest way to get the whole schabang back in the gun is to reverse it and cram it into the back of the gun.

I respectfully disagree.
I would suggest that you hold the entire bolt carrier assembly in your left hand and the bolt in your right. Slowly rotate the bolt counter-clockwise until the rollers disengage from the locking piece, and at the same time be applying pulling pressure on the bolt. At some point you will feel that rollers will freely "go in" flush with the bolt. Then rotate the bolt back clockwise until the rollers are parallel with the bottom of the carrier. At this point simply insert the assembly back into the rear of the receiver and reassemble the rest of the firearm.

[stubbicatt]

I presume the gas tube you are referring to is the portion on the top of the bolt carrier which engages the charging assembly carried in the sheet metal tube above the barrel? The bolt to bolt carrier on my rifles is quite stable, no wobble at all.

I agree with Edman99 on the proper way to disengage the bolt from the lever on the bolt carrier. It is really easier than it seems. Mashing in on the locking rollers once the bolt is free from the locking lever on the bolt carrier will easily pull the bolt away from the carrier a sufficient distance to allow you to rotate it back into the assembled and unlocked position.

The stovepipe jams, did they go away when you lubed the rifle and reassembled it? If they didn't go away, are the cartridges mashed above the bolt and not ejecting from the receiver at all, or is what you experienced that the length of the empty cartridge is at 90 degrees to the bore axis and it is partially out of the receiver?

If partially out of the receiver, it could well be the ejector retention spring gone bad, if not coming out at all, that points to the ejector lever.

Personally, first thing I would do with the jam situation is to remove the bolt from the carrier and clean the entire assembly very well, paying particular attention to the groove machined in the bottom of the bolt in which the ejector lever reciprocates. If there is a buildup of smuts in the bottom of this channel the ejector lever may not be adequately engaging the case heads of the empty cartridges, causing faulty ejection. For some reason that channel is a bear to get clean and keep clean.

Once it is cleaned out really well, I would reassemble the lubricated rifle and while gazing in the magazine well sort of cycle the action by hand observing the ejector lever as it goes into the groove in the bottom of the bolt. It should nearly bottom out at the point where it would engage a cartridge case head were there one under the extractor. If it doesn't very nearly bottom out in the groove, then you have an issue that needs to be addressed by 1) the factory, 2) a good HK gunsmith, or 3) someone who can build up some weld on the end of the ejector lever to the point where it nearly bottoms out in the groove.

Knowing Vector's customer service, I'd choose option 1.

HTH

[HKfreak]

Was there any lube in the chamber? If so, I would bet right there is your problem as the chamber needs to be as dry as possible. I have found out with my V93 is that the less lube you use the better.

Should the spent shells be more fouled than those of an AR-15? Yes. Remember, an HK type firearm is roller lock (delayed blowback) type system that partially relies on the chamber flutes for extraction. The flutes in the chamber direct the burning powder the length of the case to help it release from the chamber walls.

[bushka]

edman99 got it, but try doin that move on a 91.

[stubbicatt]

edman99 got it, but try doin that move on a 91.

It is only a bit more difficult as that locking lever on the 91 carrier is stronger, but once you rotate the bolt out from under it, all goes quite easily.

[TStafford]

Lots of good information here. What I was calling the gas tube is the bottom of the cocking lever. It would not cause failure to eject problems. I will get the chamber area dry, clean the bolt parts, clean the ejector, etc. and function test again. The failures to eject usually left the empty shell sticking out of the rifle in what I call a stove pipe.

I was in a big hurry because I was shooting the rifle before a pistol match that night. It was so dark that I had trouble seeing rounds in the mag when I locked open the bolt and looked inside the ejection port. Had it not been shiney brass I would have not been able to see them. I hope the low light was the cause of not being able to see the rear sight. The target was well lighted but the shooting area was kinda dark if that makes sense. The only light not down range was behind me and I was blocking most of that with my body.

[stateofbliss]

If partially out of the receiver, it could well be the ejector retention spring gone bad, if not coming out at all, that points to the ejector lever.
HTH

I have this ejection problem with a couple G3 upper builds from Ghille built for me (he wasn't comissioned to do the lower trigger housings but was to do only one trigger pack) .

The rounds will manually eject, but not easily. Pulling on the ejector lever needs the assistance of a rubber hammer - just not an easy pull like the other HK types I have. Can the bolt be locking up too much? Why so hard to 'release'? How can I improve this? Or should I have Ghille address that when it return the builds?

After a several rounds down one gun it began ejecting, but the other never would. We swapped lowers on between the guns but no help.

He mentioned using steel case ammo was the problem. I have yet to return to the range to check it out, but this also would be good to check before heading out to the range.

Is there such as thing as too strong a recoil spring?

[stubbicatt]

I have this ejection problem with a couple G3 upper builds from Ghille built for me (he wasn't comissioned to do the lower trigger housings but was to do only one trigger pack) .

The rounds will manually eject, but not easily. Pulling on the ejector lever needs the assistance of a rubber hammer - just not an easy pull like the other HK types I have. Can the bolt be locking up too much? Why so hard to 'release'? How can I improve this? Or should I have Ghille address that when it return the builds?

After a several rounds down one gun it began ejecting, but the other never would. We swapped lowers on between the guns but no help.

He mentioned using steel case ammo was the problem. I have yet to return to the range to check it out, but this also would be good to check before heading out to the range.

Is there such as thing as too strong a recoil spring?

I'm sorry, a question or two of clarification. To me the ejector lever is the lever inside the trigger pack which pivots upwards into a channel in the bolt and engages the case head, thus pushing it out from under the extractor and out of the rifle. I can't imagine this lever requiring a mallet to get it to move?

When disassembled does the cocking handle reciprocate easily under its own weight in the cocking tube? If it is the cocking handle which is hard to move the first little bit, sometimes that breaks in after a few rounds. If it is hard to pull towards you and move the bolt, I'd first make sure the bolt and carrier assemblies fit properly in the receiver, and reciprocate relatively easily, without any mainspring in place or anything. If the arming process or cocking process works without a hitch without the mainspring installed, that points to some interference with the spring and bolt carrier. If the arming process is still a pain, and it isn't the initial "unlock", which is often sort of stiff for awhile until broken in, the bolt reciprocates under easy finger pressure in the gun when there is no mainspring, I'd say that your issue is pretty much resolved to the mainspring/bolt carrier interface, and I'd start to look there.

If all of the above checks out, and your have issues only when the rifle is assembled, I'd look at the fit between the ejector lever and the bolt/carrier, as that is about the only other place where fit might make it difficult to arm the rifle, AND there be an issue with ejection.

I suppose it is possible that the clearance between the ejector lever and the bolt/carrier could be "off" a bit. First remove the ejector lever from the trigger pack and see if you can cycle the action with the rifle is reassembled. If you can do so easily, then it is the ejector lever fit. This could be off depending on the trigger pack shelf dimensions if you modified a FA trigger pack (itself a no-no unless done right and the one pivot hole welded up) to fit on the shelf. If this is what happened, I would look at further machining on the front of the trigger pack to make sure it fits fully inside the lower grip frame.

If the notch has been properly machined in the properly modified FA pack, your last alternative is to grind a little on the tail of the ejector lever, or try a different lever.

Or contact the builder and tell him of your woes and see what he recommends?

Sigh.