LEM owners. Tap Rack and Bang or work the trigger?

[tarkeg]

Dare,

As far as the double-action/single action thing, what the manufacturer says is how they are classified by the BATFE. It doesn't matter how a trigger "feels", or how much it moves in the triggerguard. Glocks and M&P's have a tiny (and I mean tiny) amount of rearward travel by the striker before it is released by the sear. So the BATFE defines them as double-action. If the trigger movement has to move the striker even 1,000th of an inch, it gets classed a double-action.

[ralph]

Tap, Rack, Bang, If a round dosen't go BANG the first time, don't waste time with it, rack the slide and get it out of the chamber, run a fresh round in and pull the trigger if needed.

[chuck s]

I love the crap you come out with, Chuck.

Glad you're appreciative. Been to a couple of professional training courses? With a DA/SA pistol?

The frustration many DA/SA shooters experience when they finally get around to training would be fun to watch if it wasn't somewhat tragic. Placed on the firing line with shooters armed with Glocks, M&Ps, and even M1911s they start to wonder why it's so easy for those guys -- and some grandmothers -- to get good, fast first round hits out of the holster and hard for them. Good instructors won't let them manually cock the pistols. "You brought it. Deal with it." After the first shot the playing field levels out (unless they have true DA pistols) but missing that first hit can drop you to second place in the gunfight.

Many of the Beretta, SIG, and HK DA/SA guys who come back to the course or attend another discarded these pistols soon after the first course. The guys who are stuck with DA/SA due to agency/departmental policy often (probably even usually) have to expend many more hours and ammunition to achieve the skill levels as those more easily achieved with SA triggers. SA include Glock and S&W in this context. Even LEM.

-- Chuck

[H&K 4 LIFE]

Glad you're appreciative. Been to a couple of professional training courses? With a DA/SA pistol?

The frustration many DA/SA shooters experience when they finally get around to training would be fun to watch if it wasn't somewhat tragic. Placed on the firing line with shooters armed with Glocks, M&Ps, and even M1911s they start to wonder why it's so easy for those guys -- and some grandmothers -- to get good, fast first round hits out of the holster and hard for them. Good instructors won't let them manually cock the pistols. "You brought it. Deal with it." After the first shot the playing field levels out (unless they have true DA pistols) but missing that first hit can drop you to second place in the gunfight.

Many of the Beretta, SIG, and HK DA/SA guys who come back to the course or attend another discarded these pistols soon after the first course. The guys who are stuck with DA/SA due to agency/departmental policy often (probably even usually) have to expend many more hours and ammunition to achieve the skill levels as those more easily achieved with SA triggers. SA include Glock and S&W in this context. Even LEM.

-- Chuck

I only partially agree with some of this, the rest I disagree with.

Agree- DA/SA pistols generally have a larger learning curve associated with them then striker fired designs due to the heavier first pull and the transition to a shorter lighter pull for every subsequent shot.

Disagree- That DA/SA is a disadvantage. There are plenty of people who shoot DA/SA pistols (and also DA revolvers) very well. Need I remind everyone the entire US military is still using the M9 and the SEALs are still using the P226, both of which are DA/SA pistols. To say that DA/SA is a disadvantage because the shooters you have witnessed are not good with them is very short sighted as that is a comparatively very small sample group of shooters.

Furthermore, I disagree with the LEM being classified as a single action trigger. Although the mainspring is compressed with the LEM the trigger still performs two functions (moving the hammer rearward to strike the primer and dropping the sear). As such it is a DAO type trigger with a short reset.

[TGS]

Glad you're appreciative. Been to a couple of professional training courses? With a DA/SA pistol?

Yes. P2000 v3.

Indeed, Chuck, there's more people in this world than just you who've been to, and are continuing to go to courses. You seem to think you're special in this regard, but you're certainly not.

[gtmtnbiker98]

Glad you're appreciative. Been to a couple of professional training courses? With a DA/SA pistol?

The frustration many DA/SA shooters experience when they finally get around to training would be fun to watch if it wasn't somewhat tragic. Placed on the firing line with shooters armed with Glocks, M&Ps, and even M1911s they start to wonder why it's so easy for those guys -- and some grandmothers -- to get good, fast first round hits out of the holster and hard for them. Good instructors won't let them manually cock the pistols. "You brought it. Deal with it." After the first shot the playing field levels out (unless they have true DA pistols) but missing that first hit can drop you to second place in the gunfight.

Many of the Beretta, SIG, and HK DA/SA guys who come back to the course or attend another discarded these pistols soon after the first course. The guys who are stuck with DA/SA due to agency/departmental policy often (probably even usually) have to expend many more hours and ammunition to achieve the skill levels as those more easily achieved with SA triggers. SA include Glock and S&W in this context. Even LEM.

-- Chuck

Mark this day on the calendar! I somewhat agree with you. However, your observation is not accurately reflecting the true problem, here. The problem rests with the shooter and not the platform!! DA/SA pistols are not less accurate, slower, or less reliable than a SFA pistol, they are simply put, mechanically different. Do they (DA/SA) require more training, absolutely!

Now, to answer the question asked of TGS, hell yes I attend training classes. Do I attend these classes with a DA/SA pistol, yep. Do I have problems, nope. Can I potentially turn out more accurate first shot placement on various drills, probably. Does this make my DA/SA HK45c or P30 less of a pistol than your "problematic" G4 Glocks? No. It all boils down to the shooter. Nothing more, nothing less.

For those who think the DA/SA pistol places one at a disadvantage, may I invite you to visit this site? pistol-training.com » Blog Archive » Because DA/SA Guns Are Slow. Be sure to Tell Ernie that because he chose to shoot a Beretta that he's not able to shoot it well. Love to hear that commentary.

Back to the topic at hand. Long story short, no school worth anything will ever teach their students to attempt a double strike on a failed ignition. After all, we are just assuming that it's a bad primer when you pull that trigger and it fails to fire. There are far too many other variables involved that may lead to a pistol failing to function. The TRB should be instinctive and should be performed without any thought associated with the failure.

[chuck s]

Back to our points of agreement/disagreement:

"Second strike" only solves the bad primer problem -- and that's a maybe; TRB solves practically everything. In training don't tell your shooting partner that he has no magazine in the pistol or it's not seated. Let him get that "Click" and see how he performs. Practice with dummy rounds randomly inserted as well. Lessons personally learned are better lessons.

Sure you can lean to shoot DA/SA well (you can also learn to play the violin) but few folks have the time to do it. I'm sure the guys who demonstrate DA/SA pistols for their manufacturers are highly skilled. If you're required to carry DA/SA you better learn to shoot it well (and there are traveling trainers like Gray Guns who specialize in teaching DA/SA). One of the best pistol operators I've trained with (a US Secret Service Agent) failed the final shooting test in the course we took when his first shot (DA as we were required to shoot as we carried) just nicked the shoulder of the target silhouette. It was on the line but the line here is a miss. (Any shots off the target were an immediate DSQ.)

-- Chuck

[gtmtnbiker98]

One of the best pistol operators I've trained with (a US Secret Service Agent) failed the final shooting test in the course we took when his first shot (DA as we were required to shoot as we carried) just nicked the shoulder of the target silhouette. It was on the line but the line here is a miss. (Any shots off the target were an immediate DSQ.)

-- Chuck

And that was the gun's fault, right?

[Darebear]

One of the best pistol operators I've trained with (a US Secret Service Agent) failed the final shooting test in the course we took when his first shot (DA as we were required to shoot as we carried) just nicked the shoulder of the target silhouette.
-- Chuck

How far was the target from the line? I don't get bullseye hits when shooting DA first pull, but at 30 feet I can get hits on the outer black rings of the target.

[chuck s]

1. Gun's fault it is because of the needless difficulty and complications created by the 9+ pound DA first trigger pull.

coupled with

2. Shooters fault because he hadn't trained enough. #2 can often overcome #1 with enough practice.

Note in this case the shooter had no choice of pistol as this was his prescribed duty pistol. (SIG in .357SIG). None of the four USS agents in the course, nor any of the other DA/SA shooters had much if any experience with the DA shot. Apparently their qualification courses let them manually cock the pistols (or they were used to cheating).

This was not a bullseye course but timed and scored. Only hits within the short time limit and in the two scoring zones counted as hits; any bullet completely off the silhouette was a DSQ with no appeal. I can only add that the two old soldiers (Vietnam infantrymen) shooting "obsolete" single action M1911s next on the line easily kept their bullets on target and enough in the scoring zones to pass the examination and course without undue difficulty as did the other three USSS agents.

I no longer recall the range of the missed shot. Could have been 25 yards as we had several engagements at that range. I only recall his "That was the first round." response during the critique.

The accepted shooting technique for DA/SA (or DA) pistols is to "stage" or "prep" the trigger while the pistol is coming up to line of sight. This essentially takes the DA out of the system and puts the pistol at darn near the SA point. The hammer should be all the way back at that point and the shooter simply completes the trigger press (controlled, not surprise break) when the sights align. The problem and consequent training issue is determining just how far to stage the trigger. There is rarely a felt sear trip point. (HK LEM, however, has a very nice felt sear point as do pistols like Glock and M&P autos.)

In the interest of full disclosure there was one other failure in the course and he was shooting a Glock (probably a G19). This course was entirely beyond his skill level but he sure had all the "kit" on him (exotic magazine carriers, dump pouch, vest, etc.). Simple pistol can only do so much.

KISS,

-- Chuck