LEM owners. Tap Rack and Bang or work the trigger?

[Darebear]

So what is it folks?

I read that failure to fire can be caused to a primer not going off, so another hit on the primer should send that torpedo down the barrel right? We all know the LEM has a cool little trick up it's sleeve... DAO trigger with second strike capability. So to all you seasoned shooters that own LEM pistols and was taught Tap Rack Bang I wonder what would you do? I'm kinda on both sides... If my threat is "suffocating" my ability to move I will def pull the trigger again... but if I have the ability too I will TRB.

[Uncle_Just_Tom]

It's not just LEM that allows follow-up trigger pulls, it is any DAO hammer-fired or DA/SA firearm. I would still tap and rack if you were in a gunfight to save your life. You don't have time to assess why the gun didn't fire, it's better just to clear that round and move on to the next one. At the range though, go ahead and squeeze the trigger until your finger falls off.

[F-Trooper05]

FWIW I've never taken a class with any instructor who advocated working the trigger rather than an immediate action drill.

[RHINOWSO]

A failure drill is a failure drill. No bang, do it.

However, if you don't have the ability to do one, of course I'd work the trigger as a final option. If it's all you can do, why wouldn't you?

Again, not advocating it as a primary method but it is an option available with LEM / DAO / DAK / DASA what have you type weapons.

Rhino

[Darebear]

Well I understand second strike with Da/Sa. I just wanted to know, with all the popular striker fire guns in comparison to the LEM, what would you do. Like those of you coming from shooting Glocks and now shooting LEM HK's what would you guys do?

[chuck s]

Striker fired pistols are SA, single action. Gotta cycle the slide to recock them.

Tap, Rack (and roll), Bang ain't about primer failures or unseated magazines, or anything else; it all about the Bang -- the lack of it. Don't diagnose, you can do that tomorrow. Who cares what caused it? Tap, rack, bang will almost always solve the problem.

-- Chuck

[Darebear]

Striker fired pistols are SA, single action.

I don't know bud. On THR and Glocktalk I hear that there is a difference in striker fire and SA. How the XD being fully cocked only performs a Single Action when the trigger is pulled releasing the striker and while the M&P and Glock being partially cocked it actually perfoms a Double Action when the trigger is pulled... pulling the trigger back the rest of the way and releasing it. I'm not a expert and I may be wrong but in a thread explaining the difference between Glocks, XDM's and M&P's there was overwhelming responses that eluded to the XDM trigger being SA and the Glock being striker fired. (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...=589439&page=4) Maybe you can PM me chuck and explain the difference if there is one.

Tap, Rack (and roll), Bang ain't about primer failures or unseated magazines, or anything else; it all about the Bang -- the lack of it.

-- Chuck

Well isn't the lack of bang due to "bum" primers or light primer strikes? In which case if you have a LEM, DAK and only have one hand available then second strike would help a bunch? Hey I'm not saying I would. But HK advertises the LEM like it's the greatest thing since slice bread... I kinda wonder how many people got LEM pistols because of the DAO consistent pull + DA revolver dead nuts reliability.

"The enhanced LEM trigger system combines the reliability of a double action revolver trigger with the crisp, precise trigger of a single action pistol." -http://www.hk-usa.com/civilian_products/p2000_general.asp

NOT MY WORDS.

So the ability of LEM's second strike capability isn't really a leg up on striker fired pistols that HAVE to be tap racked and banged. I guess we're all in agreement that no matter, LEM/DAO or not, TRB is the answer.

I just figured HK advertising the "second strike capability" was basically eliminating the need for TRB.

[chuck s]

We don't care why the pistol did not fire. The immediate action --- Tap, Rack (and Roll), Bang -- is to get it working again. Taking time to trouble shoot in the midst of a gunfight is a sure way to finish in second place! There is no "10 second wait for a hang fire" in this procedure. Cycle the slide NOW!

One of the most common causes for no Bang is the pistol ain't loaded! If you press-checked it the first round will fire just fine but if the magazine isn't fully seated you only get that one shot. Click. I see this frequently at training courses and it's happened to me. Second strike capability sure won't help here or if the pistol wasn't loaded and press-checked initially. Bad cartridges are extremely rare. Operator error is common.

Remember, we don't care why it didn't fire. Get it back in the fight!

Tap, Rack, Bang is not a slogan, it's a habit you must achieve. You can't achieve good habits by self-instruction. A good three-day pistol course should be considered mandatory but most folks would rather just pretend they know what they're doing. Heck all Red Blooded American Males are expert pistol shots and could drive NASCAR next weekend if they had the right car!

A good three day course of instruction will also weed out unsatisfactory pistols especially if exposed to other shooters with other pistols. DA/SA pistols are frequently discarded (or traded) after one of these weekends when folks see the easy hits achieved by the M1911, Glock, and M&P shooters who ain't fighting that 9+ pound first shot they're stuck with in their Berettas, SIGs and HKs (other than Light LEM). A good course will insist you fire the first shot DA -- you ain't got time to cock it first in a gunfight.

(Glocks are single action, just like M1911s. Quibbling about how cocked they are and how far the trigger retracts the striker is still quibbling, they ain't double action by any stretch of the imagination.)

-- Chuck

[TGS]

DA/SA pistols are frequently discarded (or traded) after one of these weekends when folks see the easy hits achieved by the M1911, Glock, and M&P shooters who ain't fighting that 9+ pound first shot they're stuck with in their Berettas, SIGs and HKs (other than Light LEM).

-- Chuck

I love the crap you come out with, Chuck.

[Brownie]

TRB because it works regardless of the pistol. It should be practiced until it becomes a reflex. Reflex is defined as an action that is performed without conscious thought as a response to a stimulus. Kinda hard to do if you have to stop and remember which pistol you're carrying. Or if you have a different pistol in your hand for some reason.