Thanks for the great information!!!
Do I hear "Sticky"?
The purpose of this thread is to organize more detailed information on the Heckler & Koch SR-9 series of rifles than what is commonly available elsewhere. If you have more information to add or correct, please post and it will be consolidated here.
- All SR-9 T and SR-9 TC rifles started out as SR-9 rifles manufactured in W-Germany, and stamped, "Made in W-Germany
HK Inc. Sterling VA." The serial prefix is 46. They were all sold in the U.S. market. According to H&K, 3000-4000 were produced. Serial numbers suggest closer to 4000. The "T" and "TC" stamps were all hand stamped on SR-9 rifles by H&K USA as they were ordered.
- The very first SR9 rifles shipped with the black polymer HK 911 Bell & Carlson thumb hole stock furniture and a set of black HK 91 furniture. Later SR9 models shipped with the same thumb hole stock but were painted in the wood-grain pattern, which had been advertised as the Orion. At about serial number 1,000, H&K began using black thumb hole stocks again. The thumb hole stocks included an SR9 specific polymer strip which attaches to the front of the hand grip with two screws and had MSG90 buffers installed. For a short while after the switch back to black thumb hole stocks, HK increased the SR9 price and included an HK91 hand guard, grip, and rear stock without buffer or hardware.
- There are claims that the first SR9 rifles ordered in T or TC configurations were not hand stamped at all. But, absent model number documentation from H&K such as an invoice or packing list, these claims are unsubstantiated because there is no known way to tell unstamped rifles apart from upgraded SR9 rifles otherwise. If anyone has H&K documentation of an unstamped T or TC, please post it. There are reportedly 25 unstamped "TC" models and another 100 stamped, but whether the unstamped rifles were ever officially considered TC models by H&K is unconfirmed. H&K has said they sold about 125 TC configured rifles in total though. The number of T models is unknown. Apparently, HK no longer has records of which SR9 serial numbers were factory upgraded to T and TC models or the information is not readily accessible or filed away somewhere.
- Later T and TC models had a PSG1 trigger warning sticker in the SR9 manual as such (some of these labels may have been attached elsewhere):
- Receivers date coded KA-KD (1990-1993) will typically have slightly older barrels date coded JA-JB (1990-1991), and bolt carriers dated II-JA (1988-1990). The bolt heads are usually newer and closer to the receiver date codes, i.e. the KD (1993) rifle photoed has a JC (1992) bolt. Stocks should also be in the same date range, the one photoed is coded JB (1991). Date codes may vary, but obviously, a date code which is later than the dates of manufacture would indicate it was added on later and is not original.
- There are three strong motivators for people to counterfeit the "T" and "TC" stampings, so care should be taken when purchasing for any collectible value above and beyond the parts;
- The originals are hand stamped, irregular, and thus easily counterfeited.
- Counterfeiting dramatically increases the perceived value and prestige of the weapon.
- T and TC models were allowed to have PSG-1 and MSG90 lowers and stocks rather than the SR9 thumb hole stocks.
- Absent documentation from Heckler & Koch, such as an invoice, packing list, or label, it is practically impossible to prove a factory T or TC rifle, but as noted above, there are several things that should be considered;
- PSG-1 trigger warning in SR-9 manual.
- Date and proof codes consistent with known factory T and TC rifles.
- T & TC stampings consistent with known H&K stamped rifles. The stamping should penetrate the original paint. The font and size of characters should be consistent, alignment is insignificant - there are bad stampings, but the visible portion of the stamping should be consistent in font and size to known H&K stamps.
- Here are some examples of stampings consistent with known H&K stamped rifles and some that are suspected to be counterfeited for comparison. Keep in mind, the quality of the hand stamping is unimportant, it's the font and size that matters, but never base a decision on the stamping alone because it's the easiest element to counterfeit:
Last edited by Andrew; 04-18-2011 at 02:29 AM. Reason: update
Thanks for the great information!!!
Do I hear "Sticky"?
1) Were any base SR-9 rifles ever shipped with the PSG1 trigger without paying for an upgrade?
2) Were any rifles ever shipped with "Orion" documentation or model numbers? Or was it only pre-production marketing that was never used for any production rifle?
3) "A short time later, HK increased the price a bit and included a 91 stock set in the box of the SR9 (the buttstock did not include the metal receiving housing, buffer, recoil spring). Did this include a wide hand guard, bipod and polymer stock without any hardware? In other words, the stock looked like this:
4) "The first SR9 rifles ordered in T and TC configurations were not hand stamped at all. I have never seen anything to substanciate if that is correct." I know people that ordered some of the first SR-9 rifles with PSG1 triggers and stocks, and they did not come with a stamping. I believe this is what led to the T and TC models being created - people ordering SR-9 rifles with PSG1 and MSG90 upgrades. But yes, it would be good to get confirmation on this from H&K. I suppose if they were merely ordered as upgrades to the base SR-9, then those rifles are not technically T or TC models. If this is how we classify them, then to be a T or TC model, the rifle should either be stamped by H&K or have documentation from H&K showing the T or TC model number, otherwise there is no difference. I suppose at some point though, the rifles could have been listed with the T and TC model number or upgrades on H&K documentation even though they were not being stamped yet. That's the question, and it can only be answered by H&K or someone that has HK documentation showing a T or TC model ordered, even though the rifle is not stamped.
Last edited by Andrew; 06-14-2010 at 12:29 AM.
1. I seriously doubt HK would throw in a PSG1 trigger with an SR9 and not want any more money for it.
2. Not sure if any documentation delivered with the early guns had the word Orion on it. Orion wasn't marked on the guns either ( I have a two digit serial # SR9). The early HK price list did use the name Orion in addition to SR9.
3. Buttstock looked like the pic, also came with wide forearm, and pistol grip with bolt, nut, and washer. No bipod. By the way, while I've been called a whiner by a friend for saying this countless times, putting a bipod on a any SR9 is a no-no (unless you've done a US parts count). An HK rep also told me that adding the MSG90 or PSG1 with pistol/target grip to a regular SR9 is also a no-no.
4. What counts in my mind is the official model number as identified by HK. This is also the model designation the dealer would use on the 4477 yellow form. Considering how careful most FFLs are, I would be surprised if the yellow form had a different model designation than what was stamped on the gun. See what confusion there would be if HK documented the gun as an SR9-TC, yet the gun was stamped SR9-T? FFLs get real particular about such things. I have never heard of a reliable situation where HK sent one of these guns where their paperwork had a different model than that stamped on the gun. What's on the gun (and I would presume the yellow form) is the model (unless there is substantial overriding proof to the contrary).
I have also heard several stories where people said a TC came from the factory with a scope and mount (didn't happen commercially). When questioned, these people usually respond, "I know this dealer who told me the gun he was selling came from the factory that way, and I've known him for over 15 years, and he's the most honest guy ever, and he's so honest, he would drive to New York to give Bloomberg correct change if he thought he shorted him on a "sting" purchase.
Last edited by SudS; 06-14-2010 at 04:52 PM.
"In 1989 the BATF had not determined what was considered acceptable as to what grips were fitted to the rifles by H&K USA the new rules were not set to be "in-force" until November 1990. For years, it was acceptable to reconfigure standard SR9 rifles to a T or TC configuration."If that were the case, it would be impossible to tell which SR9 rifles had been upgraded with PSG1 and MSG90 parts prior to any ruling and which ones had not.
I do still think there's a possibility that "T" and "TC" could have been used as upgrade descriptions before the T and TC model numbers were officially established and stamped. But then, without documentation from H&K, it really cannot be substantiated.
Last edited by Andrew; 06-14-2010 at 03:32 AM.
I wouldn't think of necessarily using the term "upgrade." If a customer wanted to order an SR9 and the PSG1 trigger and a bipod (with wide forearm), HK would ship all those things, but they wouldn't assemble and ship it that way in one box. Now, the dealer may certainly have done the customer the favor of putting those things together once it reached the shop, perhaps they even told the customer it arrived that way, but I don't think HK shipped it that way as a single item...and I doubt they would record such gun in their books as a different model than what is stamped on the gun.
The only exception might be those first 25 TCs where HK substituted the PSG1 buttstock for the MSG90 buttstock. What isn't clear is whether HK stamped those first 25 guns I was told about, as TCs.
The 91 stock set that shipped with the early SR9s were not mounted on the gun, they were in the box. Thumbhole stock set was on the gun.
"In 1989 the BATF had not determined what was considered acceptable as to what grips were fitted to the rifles by H&K USA the new rules were not set to be "in-force" until November 1990. For years, it was acceptable to reconfigure standard SR9 rifles to a T or TC configuration."
If that were the case, it would be impossible to tell which SR9 rifles had been upgraded with PSG1 and MSG90 parts prior to any ruling and which ones had not.
Sorry, this is completely false. The first SR9s weren't released until after November 1990. There were NO SR9s that were "allowed" to have their configuration changed. The HK 911s were imported before November 1990 and those guns could legally be reconfigured with a 91 stock set (and any other evil features) if done prior to November 1990.
Last edited by SudS; 06-14-2010 at 01:33 PM.
If it was not OK to switch parts, then why would H&K be sending HK91 furniture with the SR9s? Was that just an error on H&K's part? It seems unlikely, since the very reason for creating SR9s was H&K compliance with the U.S. infringements.
OK, I made some updates. I removed the bipod from being automatically included in the HK91 stock accessories that came with the price hike, and I reworded the paragraph about the "unstamped" upgrades to be more precise:Who was it that told you about those first 25 TC models? That was your quote that I used in the post - if you click it, it links to your original post.There are claims that the first SR9 rifles ordered in T or TC configurations were not hand stamped at all. But, absent model number documentation from H&K such as an invoice or packing list, these claims are unsubstantiated because there is no known way to tell unstamped rifles apart from upgraded SR9 rifles otherwise. If anyone has H&K documentation of an unstamped T or TC, please post it. There are reportedly 25 unstamped TC models and another 100 stamped, but this is unconfirmed. H&K has said there are about 125 TC models in total. The number of T models is unknown. Apparently, HK no longer has records of which SR9 serial numbers were factory upgraded to T and TC models or the information is not readily accessible or filed away somewhere.
Last edited by Andrew; 06-14-2010 at 07:27 PM.
I have no idea why HK included those 91 stock parts if it weren't OK, but I can tell you that practice did not last long. The first black thumbhole stock SR9s did not have the extra 91 stock parts included, we then received about two shipments with the extra 91 stock parts (and they had also raised the price a little), then HK stopped including the 91 stock parts. I can only guess that someone thought it was a great idea until they realized it facilitated breaking the law. Keep in mind, US parts weren't really available at that time (and Al Gore had just invinted the internet, so very few people had the net to communicate).
The HK rep was named Rick Roberts if I recall correctly. I still have his business card, but keep in mind, this was almost 20 years ago. I believe I said the first 25 were not a catalog item, and I said we never discussed whether these first 25 were stamped TC or not.
Copy of HK-Rep.pdf
Last edited by SudS; 06-20-2010 at 12:51 PM.