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Thread: DAG training ammo and Üb Training Bolt

  1. #1
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    Default DAG training ammo and Üb Training Bolt

    The blue German surplus training ammo is back on the shelves these day’s [Currently available at Dan’s Ammo http://www.dansammo.com/ ] and for those who have never tried it I thought I would shoot some and see what kind of fun could be had.

    Dan also has, the very necessary, G3 training bolt and carrier that is designed to operate with this ammunition. It's available only as a package deal at $299.00 for the bolt and 1000 round case of training ammo. I asked Dan about it when ordering and he said he had no problems having the rifle cycle with it and had even run it in a full auto sear gun. I have always liked the idea of the training stuff for plinking or working with new shooters, on account of its low recoil. It represents an area of surplus rifle and accessory collecting that adds to the fun of shooting historic battle rifles. The G3 22 conversion kit ranks right up there too. See my review here http://hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=72549 .



    In recent years there have been a few types of surplus training rounds on the market. Not all of it great. Some may remember the Swedish 9mm training ammo with the steel bb that was made for sub gun training and used a special barrel. It didn’t seem to offer much plinking fun for handgun shooters because many reported its failure to cycle autos (no surprise) as well as barrel damage from the steel BB bouncing down the barrel. Also on and off the market in the past 4 years has been some 7.62 54R hollow-core training rounds to shoot in Mosins and such. These cartridges had a standard steel case with a lightweight hollow jacketed projectile. I never took one apart to weigh it but it took all the bite out of the M-38 and would still shoot flat at 50- 75 yards ( less so at 100). I would frequently hand out boxes of this stuff at the range when I saw a Parent and child suffering the blast of heavy ball. The kids were always happy. I’m also reminded of the recent Lapua 7.62x39 wood bullet rounds, though that stuff doesn’t really count as it was considered a blank and not a training round.

    The blue plastic 7.62 x51 training ammo has been on the market before and is now surfacing again. (It just goes to show you how importers have to try to scratch the consumer’s ammo itch with whatever they can get). It’s unclear if it is newly imported or someone decided that the time and price were right to push it back out to the market again.





    If you see these rounds unboxed they look like dummies made of blue plastic. They are not. This is potentially lethal ammunition. As advertised, it is manufactured by Deutsche Angestellten Gewerkschaft (DAG), of Germany. Each round consists of blue molded case w/ projectile, stick powder and a primed steel case head finishing it off. It appears that the projectile and case are molded in one operation, the powder dropped in and then capped with the primed base. In the process of firing the projectile is literally shot off the 6 sprues and thin web of plastic connecting it to the blue cartridge case.




    Prior reports of these training rounds clocked it in the 3400 fps range. Many shooters have noted intermittent extraction issues and after a thorough look at the components I can see why. The DAG trainers have a smaller diameter rim.

    Dag training round Case head diameter; 11.31mm (.445 in)
    7.62.51 Case head diameter 11.92 mm (.469 in)

    The case head diameter of the training ammo is approximately .61 mm less than a standard 7.62 NATO round. Correspondingly the bolt face of the training bolt is reduced to accept the training round and seemingly prevent a fully blown 7.62 NATO round from getting close to the firing pin. The slight difference in case head diameter may have a small amount to do with extraction issues in rifles with un-modified bolt designs.

    TBC

    JR
    Last edited by R0T0R; 06-06-2009 at 04:51 AM.

  2. #2
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    The Training bolt is an equal part of the equation in making this ammo function and cycle reliably. Lets take a look at it. The one I received was manufactured by Rheinmetall and is marked Üb . The Ümlaut stands for Übungsmunition or practice ammunition. I am tempted just to call it the Ümlaut bolt……. So be it.

    The Ümlaut bolt is quite different from a standard G3 bolt and carrier. The most obvious difference is it’s mass and bolt head.

    Üb Ümlaut Bolt and carrier; 586 g
    Standard G3 Bolt and carrier; 754 g

    Üb Umlaut Bolt face diameter; 11.61 mm ( .457 in)
    Standard G3 Bolt face diameter; 12.7 mm ( .474 in)

    It is a fairly skeletonized version of the std. carrier with small wings extending on the sides to guide it against the receiver rails.



















    This unit operates as a straight blowback affair using only the recoil spring of the buttstock to lock it closed. With no need for locking into the trunion there are no rollers or locking piece. The firing pin and spring are housed in the bolt and carrier but the design does not permit detail stripping in the normal fashion. In fact I was at a loss to see how difficult or easy further disassembly is going to be (no manual is included). It appears there may be a pin that, with removal, will allow the bolt head to come off the front. I have not attempted this yet.

    For installation, no more is required than to sub the Ümlaut bolt and carrier for the standard and then reassemble. The manual of arms does not change. Charging is now effortless because you are no longer unlocking the bolt when using the charging handle. Whether or not a user could get this ammunition to cycle in a rifle by removing the rollers from a standard bolt/carrier remains to be seen. It does not sound like an ideal practice given the weight difference and that the bolt head would be flopping around on the locking piece during cycling.








    Frequent HK shooters may share the slight feeling of trepidation in the back of my mind as I prepared to fire this with an unlocked breech. Of course the engineers have worked out all the calculations, I know. It’s just something that, up till now, would have been considered by me as an unnatural act for roller locking rifle.

    Set up at the 50-yard line with the diopter at 200M. I put one round in a mag, charged it and squeezed. BLAM! Ch Chunk! The report was normal and the “Ch Chunk” was the feel of the carrier flopping back and forth. The impact was right where it should have been. There was some muzzle blast but no recoil whatsoever. Just the cycling of that Ümlaut bolt as if it were running on supply of compressed air. (I guess it is in a way). There was positive ejection to 2 o’clock. Only 10 or 12 feet, as opposed to the normal 25’. I put three more blue cartridges in a 5 round CETME mag and had a FTFeed on the third round. The CETME 5 rounder was little loose in the well and the bolt smashed a training round. There were no failures of any kind using G3 mags loaded with 10 rounds for the rest of 100 rounds. The dwell time on the bolt was not slow enough to prevent rapid or firing with a quick cadence.

    There were several other shooters at the Racine range that day including a Presidents 100 winner. They all tried all least 10 rounds and were giggling like kids after they fired it. It was a pretty windy day and the ambient temp was close to freezing. I was not expecting much down range but was pleasantly surprised how flat it shot at 100, especially on a day like that. The “tips” all broke through paper and cardboard to be found laying on the sand berm behind the target.




    While not “match” practice ammo it was more than any of the shooters expected from plastic bullets. These 100 yard targets (8” shoot n see) were from the best shooters there. On a calm day I would expect this spread to settle down.






    Soda cans would be great reactive target, as the little pill will waste all it’s energy busting them up.

    Clean up was a breeze. The powder is very clean burning and 100 rounds of residue wiped right off with some Kroil and patches. Some may speculate about plastic residue in the bore or flutes. I can say I noticed no visible fouling or residue. The thermoplastic case would have to have excellent heat resistance for this application. Considering all the other engineering in this product it is no surprise that it stands up in this area as well. Some bore-foam and snake was all it took to make it mirror clean.

    So the DAG Übungsmunition and the Üb training bolt were a hit with me. While this ammunition will likely be limited to single shot use in most 7.62 rifles, if you have a G3/HK91 or PTR 91 you may find the Bolt/Ammo combo to be an interesting addition to your kit and ammo pile. The current availability of the Ümlaut Bolt and carrier from Dan’s makes the whole proposition make sense.


    JR
    Last edited by R0T0R; 06-06-2009 at 04:52 AM.

  3. #3
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    Nice review. I was eyeballin' this setup as well. Wondered if the bolt was available independently of the ammo. There are better deals on ammo than Dan's.

  4. #4
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    Great wright up! I ordered this package too. I got the 1k .308 SRT and the bolt/carrier for $299.00 delivered. When I talked to Dan he said they do sell the bolt/carrier by itself for $100.00.

    Corey

  5. #5
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    VERY tempting for the fun factor.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shattered Mind View Post
    Nice review. I was eyeballin' this setup as well. Wondered if the bolt was available independently of the ammo. There are better deals on ammo than Dan's.
    who has this ammo for less than $200/k?

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    Any long term updates?

  8. #8
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    Rotor: awesome review! Does anyone know if this set up will work in F/A for a Vector V51P? If so does it require a smith to adjust the carrier or is it plug and play? I asked Dan several months ago and he said he was not sure.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwesi View Post
    Rotor: awesome review! Does anyone know if this set up will work in F/A for a Vector V51P? If so does it require a smith to adjust the carrier or is it plug and play? I asked Dan several months ago and he said he was not sure.
    You'd have to have the carrier/bolt shortened to match your Vector carrier length, but there should be no other issues. If your gun is operating properly now, it SHOULD work OK with the shortened carrier.

    I thought this stuff was drying up?

  10. #10
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    I've shot several thousand rounds of identical but Norwegian-made blue plastic training ammo with a couple of different types of bolt and carrier. This was done as part of a project to see if standard bolt/carrier assemblies could be modified into training bolts on the cheap. We found that merely removing rollers doesn't work, you need to grind off a LOT of steel to reduce the mass enough to get reliable cycling in straight blowback mode with that plastic ammo.

    Factory training bolts should be fine, though, even in FA. Those same training bolts are also used along with a blank-firing adapter in place of the flash hider when firing red plastic blanks (some countries use black, yellow or white plastic blanks; colour codes differ),

    One other point to consider is that plastic training ammo doesn't store very well; unlike standard brass-cased ammo it deteriorates so it should preferably be fired within a few years of manufacture. We had LOTS of jams and misfires with a 10 year+ old lot, which gave very inconsistent velocities and a low average. Fresh ammo worked much better. Apparently, the plastic goes brittle and weak with age and there's a possibility of solvent residues from the plastic production affecting the powder over time. Shooting older plastic ammo is perfectly safe, but may not be much fun as you're likely to get awfully poor accuracy and low reliability.

    Accuracy with this stuff is highly variable, but that's kind of a moot point. This fodder is intended for close-quarters training, and in beltfeds it is also used in anti-aircraft training against R/C drone targets as the light projectiles loose velocity and fall harmlessly to earth after a few hundred yards (vs still lethal at several miles for standard service ammo).

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