HKPRO Forums banner

new HK121 7.62x51 machine gun

48K views 25 replies 15 participants last post by  Lenkers  
#1 ·
Since I haven't seen any posts about the subject: you can find some pictures of HK's new HK121 7.62x51 machine gun in the following post on a german forum: Link to forum

The gun was shown at this year's "Bundeswehr day of the infantry", and is featured on the title of german gun magazine Visier:
Image
 
#5 ·
Bad a$$ looking machine gun right there. Kinda scary looking

.......now if we could only get a semi and have it be able to work with registered SEAR that woul be cool!!!!!!!!
Quick question. A host does not need to be pre 86 to put your pre 86 full auto sear into it? I know the little peice of metal(sear) is a machine gun itself, but is there any rules about the host being post 86? Sorry for the newbie question and being off subject. Thanks
 
#6 ·
This is the planned replacement for the long serving 7.62x51mm German MG3 (MG42). While basically a scaled up 5.56mm MG4, the original design program started with a serious look and assessment of the Russian 7.62x54mm PKM. In the end the idea of a family of MG's seemed to make better sense (ala the US MK46, MK48) than a purpose-built 7.62x51mm PKM variant, though that would have been slick.

It is interesting to note the HK417 on the table behind the MG3. The Germans too have learned that 5.56mm weapons don't compete very well at long ranges in Afghanisatn and have asked for the urgent procurement of semi-auto 7.62x51mm rifles to counter the 7.62mmR threat of "stand off shooters" in OEF. Unlikley they would "select" something not made in Oberndorf but many thought the same with the UK MoD and yet they passed on HK417 and selected a US-built gun from LMT.

Th HK121 is one of three new 7.62mm HK MG's, two others being based on the UK GPMG (MAG58/M240), one already in production and fielded in the UK Army and another with a lightweight Ti receiver (ala the FN M240L soon to be fielded in the US) under final development it is said for both the Brits and another NATO Army.

There are few things better than belt-fed machine guns and few still better than German machine guns.

G3Kurz
 
#19 ·
Th HK121 is one of three new 7.62mm HK MG's, two others being based on the UK GPMG (MAG58/M240), one already in production and fielded in the UK Army and another with a lightweight Ti receiver (ala the FN M240L soon to be fielded in the US) under final development it is said for both the Brits and another NATO Army.

G3Kurz
It's probably for the french army. There is currently a RFP for replacing 10.000 old AANF1 machinegun.

Image



Decision to be made end of 2010. FN seems to be the best player (it's sometime easier for frenchies to adopt a Belgian weapon, than a German), but HK indeed is one of the Challenger.

Clairon
 
#8 ·
The similarity to the MAG 58 is obvious are there signifigant differences I wonder. What were the shortcomings of the 21/23 and MG3 that are addressed, looks kinda spendy to make, can you change the barrel faster? Or am i showing my ignorance. Is this a serious contender to advance to concept of GPMG or just an update of some 70 year old technology. Not to be too negative but... "In a world of compromise some men don't." On a positive note looks to be enough rail to get both day and night mounted up. Also I'm just lookin at some pictures. Additionally here is an interesting perspective on 5.56 vs 7.62 Afganistan:

http://defensetech.org/2010/03/01/taking-back-the-infantry-half-kilometer/

G3 I couldent agree more with the German Machinegun assesment , kinda why I figured their latest would more closely resemble their past rather than the Belgians, go figure.
 
#9 · (Edited)
Hmmmmmmmm,

It's about time this fine piece of German engineering surfaced...

A test run must be performed by someone here @ HKPRO

( JIM ) Have any connections to grab onto this for a test run... I mean a hard torture test run...

:) Bob's Super HK powers for HKPROFEST again... :)
 
#10 ·
My guess in Ryan the Germans are keeping this one close to home. I don't believe there are any plans to bring one to the US any time soon and they no longer conduct the Yuma/Prescott dersert testing. They have some p[retty brutal testers there in Oberndof in their Firing Lab so the gun will get a good workout there and by the German military in a desert and nordic environment. I floated the idea of an artuicle on all tyhree of the new MG's plus the MG4 as it is today - no response.

Otto taking nothing from the HK21E (especially on Ryans post!) it never was a really substanial MG the HK21, like a MAG58 for instance. MAG's have been known you run 40K rounds or more with no parts failures and are not fussy about links and link pitches and ammo types like the rotary fed 21. The HK21 was always a great "special purpose" MG capable of being reconfigured by the user in the field with no tools in many variants to include box and drum fed guns and also in various calibers. US users liked it for its light weight, versatility and accuracy in a support role with the excellent QD scope mount on the E models. The high rate of fire was both loved and hated. A good "assault MG" it wiould not be ones first choice for use in a defensive role where 1K's or rounds have to be fired. This new HK121 and the GPMG/HK211 are true bullet hose MG's intended to compete with the sustained fire capability of the MAG58/M240. It remains to be seen if the HK121 can live up fully to the expectations of a German designed, German made MG. HK learned a great deal about conventional gas-operated MG's with the development of the MG4. My guess is HK121 ("MG5" or "MG7" maybe for the Bundeswehr?) will serve the users well.

G3Kurz
 
#11 ·
Thanks for expanding my GPMG knowledge G3Kurz, if I understand correctly the HK121 would perform better in the sustained fire role, hence has more suitability for vehicle mounted support weapon and fixed position emplacement, where massive amounts of ammo can easily be readied. Any idea what the ROF is for the HK121? Is it any where near the MG42's 1200, is it adjustable? I surely did mean to come across as a negative Nancy on the post, its HK's fault. After 50 years of being The Champion of Innovation it seems they are throttleling back on barrier breaking firearms design. As evidenced with the 416(M4 + Stoner) and the 121(MAG)58, maybe the failure of the G11 and Kenetic designs to grab signifigant markets and followings have repurposed their focus. Or maybe their time as a British owned Company has altered their Corporate Mission statement, or maybe (hopefully) the boys at Oberndorf have a secret lab with all sorts of paradigm changing goodies just waiting to be unveiled.
 
#12 ·
Well Nancy ("just kidding!).

I have not seen any specs on the CROF for the new HK121 so I cannot comment on that.

HK GmbH in Germany has a lab and loads of company secrets to protect but no such lab with "paradigm changing goodies just waiting to be unveiled". That is HK folklore I'm afraid, though at times they have pushed the envelope on what is considered possible in small arms (i.e. G11, P11, XM25, WSG2000, CAWS). For a very long time soldiers will still be launching metal slugs (kinetic energy projectiles) at one another as a means to kill combatants in armed combat. As they say "you cannot schedule a breakthrough". They next small arms break through IMO will come when we crack the power storage barrier and we are not even close today.

What I can tell you is that the current crop of existing HK products, and new products like the HK121, are doing very well from a performance and sales standpoint. That revenue generated from producing and selling product pays for the new developments and their testing. I would say that the current suite of weapons offered by HK in all categories (from the handguns through the GMG) are the VERY best HK has ever had (even more so than the highly regarded roller-locked weapons that put HK on the map) and may I dare to say are superior technically in most categories to their competition. Just consider the users that have selected their weapons over competing designs - that says it all IMO as they can afford/purchase anything they deem best.

Ernst Mauch and to a great extent ownership by BAE/RO had a lot to do with the shift away from what you called innovation to making more conventional firearms that worked well and were desired by more than just a small user community. The USP was the first "transitional" product - designed for what the customer wanted versus what the Design Department head thought would be innovative (e.g. a GMG that fed not from a belt but a drum loading single rounds - 40x53mm ammo comes IN BELTS!). While innovative in design and function, beloved items like the P9S, P7, HK21E, MK23, the G11 and others simply were considered by most as unconventional/unorthodox oddities and not sellable to the masses, which is why in the 1980's HK fell on hard financial times. The very best thing HK did was drop the roller-locking system (I hear LOADS of gasps out there!) and start designing and producing high quality conventional weapons like G36, HK416, the USP and P series. There is PLENTY of "useful" innovation still to be found in the GMG, MP7A1, P46 and XM25 if you are interested in such things as most are but YOU GOTTA PAY THE BILLS and there are many more competitors out there these days.

If you ran a direct comparison for performance (reliability, durability, ease of use and maintenance) between the pre-1990 HK's and those that came to be since in the same category (say HK33 versus G36 or HK416, or HK21 versus HK121 or especially P9S versus HK45) there would be little competition. The post-1990's stuff would smoke the early HK items. There are some exceptions but for the most part it is true. That may be hard to swallow for HK fans of the “old stuff” but it is very good news for the current user community, many of whom have been fighting in a long 10 year war on terrorism against a tough opponent.

G3Kurz
 
#13 ·
G3Kurz your insights are powerfully illuminating and very much appreciated, a veritable walking HK/small arms encyclopedia, truely an asset to the community. With out a doubt they are producing some fantastic tools, hopefully making enough to feed everyone and keep the dreams alive. Refering to the "power storage barrier", is that the main energy component in a caseless system? It seems to be the next logical evolution in small arms design, that and microchips, heck they have found a way to put them in every other tool/machine. God Bless those on the line, and thanks again for the perspective alignment.
Ottomatik
 
#14 ·
Refering to the "power storage barrier", is that the main energy component in a caseless system?
Ottomatik
I think that was more of a reference to a "40 megawatt plasma rifle" type of firearm.

"Just what'cha see, pal..."
 
#15 ·
Shattered Mind was correct Ottomatik "I think that was more of a reference to a "40 megawatt plasma rifle" type of firearm."

Caseless ammunition fired mechanically (ala the HK G11) is VERY problematic for many reasons that will likely keep it off the battlefield in auto-loading military weapons used is harsh field environments (yet the US Army continues to waste money on it!). These problems include the unique chamber sealing and misfire problems experienced with a cartridge that is held together by the very propellant that propels the bullet. The list is long and I believe technically insurmountable. Electrically fired caseless is no better and worse in fact when you have to rely on battery power to fire your weapon.

Power management is a real problem in the military today. Units burn through thousands of batteries to power all the targeting and commo items the modern warrior fights with today. The Canadian Army briefed in 2009 that one (1) Infantry Company (@ 120 guys) can use 17,500 AA @ CR123 batteries in just 2 weeks. The fire control sight/system for the XM25 for example uses a unique battery that can only provide active operation of the site for lasing the range and ballistic computations and day and night viewing, etc. for @ 8 hours. To power Shattered Mind's 40 megawatt plasma rifle you can only imagine the power it would take and even the USAF Airborne Laser http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/abl/ is carried around in a 747!

I predict in the year 2525 (and 2050) man will still be alive and the dead ones on the battlefield will still be dead from lead poisoning from cased rifle rounds and artillery fragments.

G3Kurz
 
#16 ·
Fascinating article, now all's we need is a Millanium Falcon to mount the COIL laser to and we'll be good to go! Astute analysis on the caseless conundrum. I havent come across any articles in a long time, the silence is telling, usually. That's 63 batteries per trooper per day! Your supposed to turn the lights off when the sun is up kids!
I have been gradually installing more and more Photovoltaic systems in conjunction with Roofing. The Germans are laps ahead of us, hybrid drive systems powering our big iron are here to stay,apparantly. I believe there is a strong chance for better storage mediums ( batteries) in the not to distant future, based on developments coming out of a multitude of sectors. D.C. is the new black. Maybe we could update the flamethrower! Backpack based 1k marshmello toaster, I've heard rumors! Again, thanks for sharing, enjoy the weekend! I picked up Vector 51P yesterday, definitely going to function test...should be hilarious without a stock, just gonna have to wait. Ottomatik
 
#17 ·
Visier (9/2010) about the HK 121:

- it's gas operated
- there are currently a half-dozend prototypes undergoing durability testing, there might be some changes: Materials used, barrel profile, etc.
- it should be part of IdZ by 2012/ 13, however funding remains uncertain
- it's probably 2 to 3 pounds heavier than the MG 4
- the receiver is much more massive than the MG 4 ones
- but it doesn't seem to be simply a scaled up MG 4 (only buttstock, pistol grip and gas system are similar)
- it is likely that it will be compatible with all german MG 3 mounts (tripods, vehicles, etc.)


There are just two pretty crappy images, no internals shown. Both where taken during the "Day of the Infantry". I bought the magazine because of the title story, only. I regret it, somehow.
 
#21 ·
G3, I love the german guns, but honestly the PKM is still 10 lbs less than that... How is a MAG58 or M240 light weight?

10 lbs is alot man. I always thought that the M240 was the heaviest in that class. I thought that is why everyone wanted the MK48.

I would rather have a HK21 or MG3 or MG42 long before I used a M240. I think 8mm could be fun at 1200 rpm as long as its mounted on top of a vehicle and I don't have to carry the ammo :)
 
#22 ·
A - you ask a lot of questions in your post. Let me try to address them in a overarching way.

My input was based on 20+ years at HK testing, demoing and watching LE, SOF and military customers test HK products, old and new. I was part of the test team on an untold number of Govt tests, both in the US and abroad. I know of and watched early HK's like HK23 (M262), HK53, P7's, G11's,HK21's and MSG90's fail in endurance tests to the more conventional candiates like Glocks, M4's, M249's and M240's and M14/SR25's, etc. The roller-locked guns were ahead of their time in some ways in the 1950's thru the 1970's but more so because of the ease of production (stamped steel versus machine metal) then performance and they have serious weak points, like their senstitivity to ammo and barrel length changes and weak extractor spring design, and they are heavy in comparsion, many feel their blow-back operated recoil impulse makes for a less pleasant shooting experience all things considered. If you look at the major rifle, MG and handgun tests alone around the globe in the last say 25 years the HK33, HK21 and P7 were rarely ever winners - rarely.

I participated in HK and user tests of 5.56mm rifles in desert tests which include specially modified HK33's with hardened receivers (to crush sand and grit) and the G36. The G36 outperformed the HK33 hands down. The Saudis had a plant already were they could make HK33's and instead wanted the G36. Had the HK33 been included in the 2006-2008 Army extreme dust tests with the M4, XM8, HK416 and SCAR L it would have finished poorly overall. I once had data on some of these reports but had to leave most behind so you'll just have to take my word on it and the fact that if these older HK's were so good folks would still want them and be buying them and they are not (the MP5 is the only remaining exception - expensive to make, HK once planned in the early 2000's to cease production of the MP5 and instead offer the customer the 9mm UMP9.... the customer screamed bloody murder! MP5's are still being made at HK GmbH!)

The newer HK's are for the most part lighter, more reliable, cheaper to make and repair, more conventional in many cases and thus better accepted by the world community. Folks often want what they know and the further your mousetrap is away from the world standard (often times the US standard) the harder the sell is regardless of how technically superior you think your product may be (the HK GMG is one exception - it beats everything out there in 40x53mm!). It was those unorthodox HK's that didn't sell in the 1970's and 1980's that got HK in trouble.

G3Kurz
 
#23 · (Edited)
Thanks for the further input. I was hoping you had access to some of the testing; that would be interesting to see. Often the scope of testing is more of a factor in determining the outcome than anything else. And as I'm sure you know, the scope is frequently not objective even though that's the purpose. Case in point, the M-16 and M4. The vast popularity of a rifle that jams 19% of the time in modern combat is due more to politics than anything else. Hundreds of "successful" tests and comparisons have been completed which show it as the "best." In the end, Americans like the M-16 because it's what our government has given us to use and what we have experience with.

While comparing older German roller locked designs with modernized gas designs obviously puts them at a disadvantage, especially regarding cost, maintenance, and materials, the question is, how would a modernized roller locked design perform? Surely the same modern materials, manufacturing, and tech improvements could be made, i.e. polymers, CAD, and manufacturing technology. Also, how much of an advantage are such improvements to the operator anyway? In some cases the differences would be practically negligible, i.e. 8lb HK33 vs 8.05lb G36. Yet in others significant, mainly due to technology, i.e. sights. Factors that might be more important to operators than those in charge of logistics are things like accuracy, which German roller locked designs are famous for. How much was accuracy a consideration of the tests you are aware of? Differences in testing and comparisons might not be as significant as any results imply. It really does depend upon having objective and scientific testing. Further, if new technologies were applied to the German designs bringing them up to speed rather than just patching up the old ones, any results would surely be even more favorable. I think your mentioning of the MP5 vs UMP9 is a good example, where operators had a chance to say, "hey, wait a minute, there's a reason we like the accurate MP5 roller locked weapon."

Yes, the costs would still likely be higher manufacturing modern roller locked rifles and world wide acceptance would still be lower, which would result in less profits for HK in the short term, but now that we are living in the information age people are becoming less and less susceptible to propaganda. In the long term, customers prefer paying more up front for things of higher precision, quality and performance, and this is especially the case with critical items like weapons - HK was built on quality, performance and precision, and so is Germany for that matter. I can't help but think that HK may have played the, "if we can't beat them, join them" card too soon.

Of course, if that's the only thing that saved HK financially in the short term, then I guess not. Anyway, I hope to see more innovative designs come from HK in the future.
 
#24 ·
Good points Andrew but I don't believe a modernized roller-locked HK design would really improve the overall functional issues in a blow-back operated weapon, though it might be lighter if made from newer materials. That is why there are so many different locking pieces with different angles for various HK's (more than 80 for the G3 family alone!). There are no such changes required in gas-operated HK's and it is not required for reliable operation with different barrel lengths and most ammo types (G36 and XM8 are classic examples - same gas port and the same distance from the chamber and they are reliable with most ammo types). When was the last time you saw a successful new roller-locked weapon design? The last one I recall - the Calico 9mm died on the vine after much heartache. HK played around in the 1990's with a roller and/or pin-locked semi-auto shotgun design and the ammo variances in shotgun ammo killed the concept.

Accuracy requiements are user defined. If the product (like the G36) is designed in response to a particular user requirement (the Bundeswehr) the user sets the accuracy demands of the weapon based in large part on operational considerations, OR they work with the maker to provide the best possible accuracy for the money spent. More accuracy often costs more money (select barrels, receiver stiffening, etc.) so military weapons are often developed based on fixed, known MIL SPECS (NATO, US TOP or commercial SAAMI) and ammo has the greatest variance on accuracy. A PSG1 with cheap African ball ammo shoots like crap.

Look into the HK XM25 or GMG, or MP7A1 or P46 if you want to see innovation - it is there and amazing.

G3Kurz
 
#25 · (Edited)
Most arms don't have their barrel lengths changed after manufacture, nor I suppose even their locking pieces in the case of HK. Once the rifle and ammo specifications are designed and purchased, that's what is typically used for the life of the weapon. The only time I see design being an issue, and thus the 80 locking pieces you have mentioned, is upon new procurement of either arms or ammo, in which case this sort of tinkering would be a normal part of R&D anyway.

Shorter barrel lengths do cause issues with gas operated carbines also. This was fairly pronounced with the M4 carbines. Just try a Google for "M4 Jamming." The issues had to be ironed out just as locking pieces would be in any modified roller locked designs. This may not have been an issue for HK's designs, but it demonstrates how gas systems can also be finicky when modifying the design. But the point is, changes to a design nearly always require other modifications to accommodate such changes, it's not an issue unique to HK roller locked weapons. Here's an article that goes into a little detail about M4 problems:

Technical Note 48, The Effects of Barrel Design and Heat on Reliability (M4)
http://web.archive.org/web/20061208231558/http://www.armalite.com/library/techNotes/tnote48.htm

Probably the greatest reason that we didn't see any new roller locked designs in the '90s is because it was also in the '90s that HK decided to go with gas operation. The G36 was designed between 1990 to 1995. So it's no surprise that we didn't see any new roller locked designs - HK had already made the decision to stop designing them and start mainly selling gas operated weapons. I'm not sure about all the details on the HK take overs and restructuring, you probably would be, but I'm sure that played a part in the changes at HK. I know HK was bought and sold a couple of times in the past couple of decades, but how that affected the direction of the company is probably a relevant topic.

As you mention in your last paragraph about user defined requirements, this seems to be the greatest change at HK; a shift in focus of producing the ultimate arms, which by nature would require radical designs, to more of a focus of producing arms that meet user defined requirements under the HK brand. While I see that as a smart move business-wise, I guess I just haven't been too impressed with the requirements that are getting defined by "users." The weapons you mention at the end really do seem to be user defined, yet the XM25 is fairly innovative. It will be interesting to see how that works out.

Regarding the P46, the Wikipedia states;

In July 2009, HK USA's president, Wayne Webber, indicated that the UCP project has been cancelled because "HK felt it did not provide adequate ballistics in handgun form."[1]
Is that correct?

I guess if I was a shareholder I would be more inclined to think differently about the nature and necessity of the changes made to HK.
 
#26 · (Edited)
According to Visier (8/201) the Bundeswehr wanted to introduce the HK121 as MG 5 in 2012, but after initial tests the roadmap can't be kept. No further information given.

Another story: In autumn 2007 a german company presented a machine gun with caseless ammunition concept during an infantry symposium in germany. Does anybody know if this company was HK?