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Thread: What does it mean when people say "NFA registry is closed"

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oreaopla View Post
    Also, coincidentally, a MR. J D Farmer Jr attempted to register a new post 86 with the ATF (out of Indiana perhaps?) and ended up suing the ATF when he was denied. ATF lost in federal district court but the ruling was overturned by the eleventh district US court of appeals and the SCOTUS refused to hear the case. NRA was supposed to fight to overturn Hughes but the silence is deafening coming from their end.
    JD FARMER along with his wife Linda owned and operated Hard Times Armory, out of Georgia . Jd passed away shortly after the failed appeal, and it was never revisited.
    Linda Farmer then turned her attention to a NFA publication which lasted a few years. I do not think is involved in anything gun related any longer.
    Back in the eighties, the big players for HK NFA conversions was Bill Fleming, HTA, and Bill Wittstein (Billistics)
    Last edited by bluetwister; 03-01-2012 at 03:23 AM.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by straightgrain View Post
    And I can assure you that there are several efforts underway to challenge several of these issues on Constitutional grounds...
    half my life I have heard this my friend. when will it go down? any appeals currently on the books?

    good thread. educated opinions

  3. #23
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    First of all, I would like to understand the basis for the statement "I'm pretty sure dangling tantalizing information is also unconstitutional." I mean really.

    @JeepGuy... You are correct. It has been heard a lot for a long time with nothing coming of it. This is not just a matter of fighting an appeal. It's a matter of building a giant skyscraper at the equivalent of one grain of sand at a time. This is a slow and deliberate march towards a complete victory. When you are talking about machine guns, you are talking about something that a significant part of Congress is likely not even aware of. So we need to be very precise when poking the bear. We need to have the right case at the right time and bring to bear the exact right issues. It took 230+ years for the SCOTUS to even acknowledge the fundamental nature of the second amendment. The battle for all weapons is going to take a bit. That said, I can assure you that there are a lot of "alphabet" organization already involved and there are a lot of individuals, as well.

    Look for the first wedge to be driven via the state versus federal regulation of NFA weapons. Think along the lines of Heller/McDonald in that certain states and municipalities sought to prohibit a whole "class" of weapon that was otherwise lawful at the federal level. It eventually turned out pretty bad for cities like Chicago (nice check, Rahm), but they are still throwing spikes in the road.
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  4. #24
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    What do you think will spark it off? 10k of us send in form one's for a machine gun and then sue together when we are declined? As far as I know there has only been 2 prosecuted for use of a legal machine gun in a crime. I know about a couple court cases where people were tried but walked or not went to court at all. (i.e. gary fadden, harry beckwith, richard garriot).

    Roger W. Waller AKA Dennis Waller was a cop in Dayton Ohio and used a mac11 to kill informant Lawrence Eugene Hileman in 1988 and shot another man. He was convicted of murder and felonious assault. The gun was his own and not department owned as misprinted online many places. Matter of fact the estate of mr. hileman sued the police chief for signing the transfer papers on it but it got booted out of court after finding that he could in no way know what the gun was to be used for and not negligent. Several gun sites have mentioned this case but that facts are always different. Here is what went down:

    "Waller was a Dayton police officer and was assigned to a special unit which coordinated tips about drug dealers and drug houses. His operations were strictly administrative.

    Waller was with his friend Dennis Michael when someone fixing his furnace told Waller about a drug house in his neighborhood. Waller's friend, Dennis Michael also said he knew of a drug house in his neighborhood. Waller took his friend Michael, who was not a police officer, to investigate the two reports. Waller was on his day off and the police department did not know his whereabouts or the details of his investigation. In fact, Waller was not authorized to even conduct investigations such as this. Waller was not in uniform, but was carrying his 9mm pistol, radio and had a Mac-11 machine gun under his jacket. Waller's buddy, Michael was carrying a shotgun.

    Waller and Michael went to the location of the first complaint. They found nothing. They decided to go to the location of the second complaint. Waller approached the house and asked the two occupants, Lawrence Eugene Hileman and Jerry L. Smith if they would sell him some crack cocaine. The two men denied selling drugs. Waller, apparently upset by this, identified himself as "drug enforcement".

    At some point during their encounter, the Mac-11 that Waller was carrying discharged, striking Hileman. Waller's friend, Dennis Michael shot Jerry L. Smith with the shotgun. Hileman died.

    Waller pleaded guilty to murder and felonious assault. Michael pleaded guilty to involuntary manslaughter and felonious assault.

    Sources indicate that Waller had been involved in drug trafficking for several years and numerous complaints were filed with the police department against Waller."

    He got 15 years to life plus 3 years for using a gun in crime. Parole was denied in january 2011 and he still lives at Grafton Correctional. Next parole hearing is november 2013.


    Roger Waller

    Dr. Shou Chao Ho killed Dr. Carmelito Olaes in 1992 also in Brunswick Hills Ohio and pleaded guilty to it. Sentenced 15 years to life by judge Judy Cross and 3 years for using a firearm in a crime plus he also had charges for harassing hospital staff with firearms. I doubt his actions had anything to do with the type of weapon used.

    He is still in Warren Correctional first parole hearing is in september of 2016.


    shou chao ho

    Also misreported on the intraweb is the 2007 case of Jason Kenneth Hamilton who shot his wife (a cop) and wounded 3 people before killing himself in moscow idaho. The AK used in at least one of the shootings was at first thought to be full auto but it was semi only. so was his m1a. He legally owned the firearms as well. The info about the auto ability of the rifles was provided by Lt. Charlie Spencer after examination of them.

    Woohoo in 78 years and hundreds of thousands of registered machine guns they still couldn't stop 2 crimes. I would like to thanks the ATF for protecting us from nothing.
    Last edited by JeepGuy79; 03-01-2012 at 05:15 PM.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oreaopla View Post
    The problem here is that congress has over stepped constitutional authority many times over the last few decades so getting politicians to realize the Hughes amendment violates the constitution because it is a ban that invalidated a tax measure (the only reason the NFA passed in the first place was because congress had authority to tax but not ban) is going to be difficult. It all comes down to the great ill slowly destroying the country... Big government. Make no mistake. The Hughes amendment is illegal and so was the 1994 ban and so is the 89 import ban, but who's going to make the government accept only the limited powers granted by the constitution and allow the states the rest?
    Actually, the import ban is fully constitutional. The fed is given the authority to regulate international commerce. It's the same power used to keep unsafe cheap electronics, narcotics, lead based paints, etc. from flowing in through our seaports and getting onto your retail store shelves. Honestly, while I love my German guns, I like the idea of the fed protecting domestic businesses and jobs. Unfortunately, too many Trade Agreements have opened the import doors and closed domestic production doors. The firearms is one industry where they have (likely unknowingly) protected American jobs, thanks to 922(r). While I would rather see it implemented through import duties, I don't argue with it's existance. Nothing in the second amendment gives you the right to import foreign arms, just "to have and to hold, til death do us part".

    SG mentions state vs federal regulation. Many states are flexing their muscles against the fed on numerous issues. Look at the marijuana laws as an example. Prohibition of alcohol took a constitutional amendment, but since they tried doing the same to drugs without an amendment, the states are fighting back. The healthcare reform is another one. Many states filed lawsuits against the fed within a week of it being signed.

    On the issue of firearms, the fed's authority over sales and manufacturing firearms is derived out of the constitutional authority to regulate interstate commerce. They've stretched it, in my opinion, but that is their basis for it. I know of at least two states that have challenged these regulations derived from interstate commerce authority. Montana and Tennessee argue that firearms manufactured and sold within it's state borders are not subject to that regulation, because it is not interstate commerce. I do not know what the current status is on those suits, other than ATF publishing their "respect our authoritah" opinion. It has already been a few years since they were filed.

    Note that case won't help us get our beloved HK NFA items, but I refer to my earlier comment about baby steps.
    Last edited by bordercop; 03-01-2012 at 05:59 PM.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by bordercop View Post
    Nothing in the second amendment gives you the right to import foreign arms, just "to have and to hold, til death do us part".
    Maybe, maybe not. It's not as clear cut as that, but the reality is that a 2nd Amendment argument in favor of importation probably isn't going to go far.

    Quote Originally Posted by bordercop View Post
    Montana and Tennessee argue that firearms manufactured and sold within it's state borders are not subject to that regulation, because it is not interstate commerce. I do not know what the current status is on those suits, other than ATF publishing their "respect our authoritah" opinion. It has already been a few years since they were filed.
    Montana and Tennessee don't have a leg to stand on until Wickard v. Filburn is overruled. If you haven't read Wickard v. Filburn, I highly recommend it. It is the single case which has been most responsible for the massive expansion in the Federal government's power in the last 70 years. It essentially took Congress's Commerce Power to the next level. If ObamaCare isn't struck down this year, it'll take the Commerce Power again to a new level by arguing that Congress can regulate inaction. Of course, that also means that if the government can make you buy health insurance, they can also mandate by law that everyone own a firearm. Wouldn't that be an odd twist.

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