HK P7M13 - Movie Prop - Help Needed

[Diehardprops]

Hi Guys,

Forgive me for joining the forum and not contributing to any discussion. My reason for joining is I need your help with something if possible!

I'm a Screen Used prop collector, focussing mainly on the 'Die Hard' series of films. In 2007 I purchased a large group of props from the first Die Hard film from the prop master on the movie. One of the props was a brown H&K P7M13 made of a heavy resin type material (Non working, non firing movie prop)

The gun is very very well made, the detail is incredible. The prop maker has also etched his company name 'Prop Art' and the date '87' under the trigger guard. After carrying out some research with various members of the crew on Die Hard I have since found out that it wasn't used in the film, but may have actually found its way into the box by mistake. The same crew worked on 'BEVERLY HILLS COP 2' within a couple of months of working on Die Hard and this gun matches the gun used by Karla Fry (Brigitte Nielson) in the film.

I have a feeling this stunt gun was used by her in the movie. I have since had confirmation that 'Prop Art', the name etched under the trigger guard did indeed make the stunt weapon for Beverly Hills Cop 2, but didn't for Die Hard.

Here are the details on the side of the gun:

One side says:
'Heckler and Koch GMBH Oberndorf /N Made in W-Germany'
'P7 M13 9mmx19'
'HK T&E Only'

The other side says:
'71434 M13 Chantilly VA'
Along with a couple of markings and the letters 'IE'.

I presume that 71434 is the serial number.

Can anybody tell me anything about this gun? Does the serial number have any significance? Can it be tied down to a certain date etc? Are these markings typical of this model of gun?

Many thanks in advance,

Simon Lee
simonleeprops@yahoo.co.uk

[Biggs]

I'm always a little hesitant when it comes to the authenticity of movie props, unless you have documentation that these props were in fact used in the movie, there is no real way to verify them. While Hans (Alan Rickman) does use a P7 M13 in Die Hard it is nickel plated, not brown. Brigitte Nielson's in BHC II is black as shown in these photos

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Beverly_Hills_Cop_II

Also you mentioned the date on the handle as being '87. While BHC II was released in '87, principal photography began in '86. Die Hard on the other hand released in the summer of '88 but was shot in '87. Most likely the prop master would have marked the gun's date when he made it ('87 for Die Hard, '86 for BHC) not when the movie was to be released, since there is no guarantee when or even if a movie will be released. Also, just because there wasn't a brown M13 in Die Hard doesn't mean they didn't use one on set. As a filmmaker I can tell you that kind of thing happens quite often. Many times prop masters will have several versions of a gun available and the Director will choose which "look" he likes best for the film. It also could have been the gun of another character in the film and its use was simply cut out of the film. It could have even come from another film entirely. Props bounce around studio lots and are used on multiple films all the time. For instance Willis' Beretta 92FS used in Die Hard 2 and 3 makes a "cameo" appearance in Live Free or Die Hard, used by one of the bad guys (Willis switched to a Sig in that movie). But like I said, unless you have a certificate of authenticity or something like that there's no way to know for sure where your gun came from.

As for the markings, the prop master likely copied them right off of a real P7 M13 (probably one that was actually fired in the film it was used in, so every detail on the prop gun could match). So all the markings seem legit but don't have any special significance. The "IE" is the date code on the gun with A=0, B=1, etc... so in this case the gun they used to copy the markings would have been made in '84.

Hope that helps and sorry about the long rant :)

[TRMN8R]

So all the markings seem legit but don't have any special significance.

About everything else, you'd be correct. However, on this particular reference, you're way off.

The OP states one of the markings as being 'HK T&E Only'. That in itself makes the pistol stand out, and is not standard markings for the P7 series.

I'm not sure of any particular significance AFA this being on a prop gun; however, on the real thing it IS a big deal for P7 afficianados.

'T&E' is a marker for the "Test & Evaluation" pistols, and command a premium as finding one is few and far between.

I find it odd that the prop maker would've had one of these to make the prop from, unless they just had a standard mold and made markings based on picture references.

Interesting.

[Diehardprops]

Thank you both for your observations.

Biggs - Good points on the filming dates. It is something I had thought about but realise that props can often be brought into production after filming has started if required for a specific scene or if extras are required. I suppose it would depend on when principal photography wrapped on BHCII. If it was released in May then that would most certainly suggest that filming wrapped in late 86 to give time for the post production process.

Whilst the gun appears black on screen, it doesn't mean to say it is. As I'm sure you're aware colours can appear different through a lens. The gun I have is a very deep brown and on some of the stills I have found from the film it looks brown and on others it looks black.

I've been collecting props for a number of years so I'm aware of the issues regarding provenance and authenticity. I would have to disagree with what you said about the issues of verifying use without documentation. Whilst a letter of authenticity is often accepted as proof and provenance that an item was used on set, they're not worth the paper they're written on sometimes. Unless you were actually there and saw the items being used then you just never know. This is something we accept as collectors. Prop masters often forget what was used where also, as it has been so long since they handled the pieces on set.

The guns used in Die Hard 2 weren't used in Die Hard 3. The guns in two were provided by a California based armourer (Mike Papac) whilst the four berettas provided to production on Die Hard With A Vengeance were supplied by Rick Washburn at Weapons Specialists in New York. I heard about the beretta from two being reused in Live Free or Die Hard though, that is pretty cool. It would make sense given that Papac still owns the beretta from the second film and also provided the guns to the fourth. He likes to mix in his guns, he did the same with the MP5 from Die Hard/Lethal Weapon as you're probably aware.

I may never know the true history of the gun. It may well have been used in the production of Die Hard like you said and not seen in the final cut of the film, the letter from the Prop master certainly states as such.

TRMN8R - Thanks for your observations with the T+E. Interesting to know.

[nyeti]

In regards to the "T&E" issue. I worked extensively with one of the most famous firearms prop houses in L.A. For many movies the most state of the art guns are wanted. In our case we had one of Hollywoods best movie armorers on staff at my P.D. We would often get T&E L/E sample weapons that molds would be made of for props or as a sample for use in a movie. This was a win for everyone. We got a armorer who was invaluable for working with some exotic or strange weapons that were seized or used in crimes. The manufacturers got their newest guns into movies. The police agency firearms people got to use and test the latest firearms and stay current on the latest offerings without incurring additional expenses, and many times we were able to make better choices for purchase of firearms because we were able to test a large variety of weapons systems.

[Biggs]

About everything else, you'd be correct. However, on this particular reference, you're way off.

The OP states one of the markings as being 'HK T&E Only'. That in itself makes the pistol stand out, and is not standard markings for the P7 series.

I'm not sure of any particular significance AFA this being on a prop gun; however, on the real thing it IS a big deal for P7 afficianados.

'T&E' is a marker for the "Test & Evaluation" pistols, and command a premium as finding one is few and far between.

I find it odd that the prop maker would've had one of these to make the prop from, unless they just had a standard mold and made markings based on picture references.

Interesting.

Sorry must have glanced right over that. And to Diehardprops may main point isn't to say your gun couldn't have been used in BHCII or Die Hard, just that there is never really any way to know for sure. As long as you're comfortable with your purchase that's really all that matters. Just trying to offer a possible alternate reason why this gun ended up with the Die Hard props. If nothing else you've a really cool HK prop gun on your hands regardless of what film it was used in, enjoy :)