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Thread: Colts new (APS) The 416 Killer ?

  1. #1
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    Default Colts new (APS) The 416 Killer ?

    Colt Advanced Piston System

    Looks like it finally come up on the web sight.

    Im sure the H&k 416 is better with out a doubt better, as we would all agree but how close will this thing come to competing with the 416. Especially since the U.S has had a contract with colt in the past.

    Under the technical specification is says weight is 6.89 lbs....the weight on the ( lwrc a2 )is 7.62lbs.. how do they get this thing so light with a piston ?

  2. #2
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    HK should sue.

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    That looks like a carbine length rail on the APS. I think the LWRC M6A2 has a mid length rail. Plus, it looks like the Colt barrel has the M203 cut profile, while the LWRC barrel doesn't have the cuts. Both of those differences could explain most of the weight differences. It's possible that buffer weights could be different also. Finally, the Colt has a standard CAR stock, while the LWRC has the heavier VLTOR Emod stock. There are a lot of little things that could add up to a .7 lb difference.

    Regarding the threat to the HK416, remember that the HK has a proven combat record. Although Colt is a well known brand name, this is a new gun for them. It would have to go through all of the testing processes as for any other gun submitted for evaluation (assuming it's there is an outstanding requirement of a new weapon). The military isn't just going to drop the 416 or any other gun and just start buying APSs.

  4. #4
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    HK416 is, contrary to popular believe, not about being piston. I do not see threat for it just because Colt throw in piston into their carbine. There are ARs with piston system available from companies strong in mil/LE market (Knight, SIG) and HK416 seem to keep it's benchmark position.
    Montrala

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacul View Post
    Colt Advanced Piston System

    Looks like it finally come up on the web sight.

    Im sure the H&k 416 is better with out a doubt better, as we would all agree but how close will this thing come to competing with the 416. Especially since the U.S has had a contract with colt in the past.

    Under the technical specification is says weight is 6.89 lbs....the weight on the ( lwrc a2 )is 7.62lbs.. how do they get this thing so light with a piston ?
    Weight comparisons are difficult unless both include magazines, sights, same length RAS's, etc. Often they do not.

    Colt had at least 1 piston gun I recall in the SCAR competition. They did not win - FN did. The HK416 was not there to compete. Colt had at least 1 candidate in the USMC IAR competition. HK was there - and won.

    Fast forward to 2011/2012 - US Army "Individual Carbine" (IC) competition - testing to begin in early 2012. One can expect Colt, FN, LWRC (maybe - heard they pulled out along with KAC, Ruger and a few others) and HK to submit candidates. So IF the test is run properly as we can assume it will be then there will be major bragging rights for the winner of the technical portion of the eval. Winning that does not mean they will win a production contract - that is anyones guess. I give it < 40% chances that the eventual IC winner is ever purchased in mass.

    Colt and others will have their chance to "Kill the HK416" but that will not be so easy I suspect. The HK416 is not used where it is today because it was an "also ran" weapon and has a piston op system. I wish Colt luck as if they can beat the HK416 with the many minor changes now included in the design from lessons learned since its debut in late 2004 then they (Colt) truly will have something special for the war fighter and hopefully Uncle Sam has the coin to buy some.

    The very best carbine available is the goal - not who's name is on it. Let the best gun win.

    G3Kurz

  6. #6
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    Here's the list with the contenders listed on FBO.gov:

    ISRAEL WEAPONS INDUSTRUIES (I.W.I) LTD.
    DYNETICS, INC.
    SHARPS RIFLE COMPANY
    COLT DEFENSE LLC
    HECKLER & KOCH DEFENSE INC.
    TEMPLARS AND CRUSADERS
    A2Z SUPPLY CORP
    DANIEL DEFENSE, INC.
    STAG ARMS, LLC
    LEITNER-WISE DEFENSE, INC.
    SIG SAUER INC.
    GLOCK INC
    STRIKER ARMS, LLC
    ADVANCED PRECISION, LLC
    LWRC INTERNATIONAL, LLC
    AGUA HOLDGINGS
    ACCURATE TOOL & MANUFACTURING COMPANY, INC.
    RONICH CORP.
    ZDF IMPORT/EXPORT, LLC
    CRITICAL DIMENSIONS LLC
    A L ROTH WINNING PROPOSALS
    ADAPTIVE CONSULTING & TRAINING SERVICES, LLC
    S.I. DEFENSE, INCORPORATED
    WM. C. ANDERSON, INC.
    OTIS PRODUCTS, INC
    Mil-dot Integrated Technologies, LLC

    It seems that it is not mandatory to be on the list, since FN is missing. Many of them seem to be generic military contractors that never produced a rifle before. They possibly just buy parts and slap them together.

  7. #7
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    Remington is also not on the list, LWRC is on it twice, and does Glock make a carbine? Seems kinda goofy.

  8. #8
    Gets the Shakes if No HK Contact in 24 Hour Period

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    In the Q&A-process for the RFP one competitor asks if it is possible to submit multiple entries so the government can "pick the best".
    Reply is that each vendor is supposed to decide on it's own which of his designs is best and may only submit one.
    That may be the reason for two LWRC entities submitting proposals, circumnavigating this clause...

    ...besides that I am really interested in who Glock is pairing with or if they actually have a design of their own.

  9. #9
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    I want my troops issued with a gun from A L ROTH WINNING PROPOSALS! Anyone else? No?
    Last edited by dwillHK; 11-05-2011 at 03:18 PM.

  10. #10
    Gets the Shakes if No HK Contact in 24 Hour Period

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    Quote Originally Posted by German View Post
    That may be the reason for two LWRC entities submitting proposals, circumnavigating this clause...
    Unless I'm missing something, you guys are confusing this... Leitner-Wise Defense with this... LWRC International, LLC

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