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Sunset of the DoD's use of the 416?

32K views 75 replies 28 participants last post by  Crashmc 
#1 ·
I'd like to preface this with the statement that I think HK products are top notch and I have had a plethora of experience in employing them in combat and personal use without fail. However, HK's success unfortunately has led to what appears to be a looming sunset in regards to their dominance in the realm of their employment with our nation's elite.

I'm not speaking from the plateau of "I heard it on the internet". I'm simply sighting facts. The sunset commenced when the ban of firearms and components deemed "not having a sporting purpose." coupled with HK's failure to establish a US manufacturing base and further hampered by the German government's restrictive firearm exportation laws.

I can tell you that this created a Diminishing Manufacturing Sources and Material Shortages (DMSMS) issue with units employing the 416 at the time of its enactment. True, there were workarounds which usually involved the units picking up the uppers and barrel components in Germany and bringing them back. Recently, this has been addressed by receiving the 416s essentially stripped (Complete upper sans handguards & stripped lowers) and assembling the systems at the units (Geissele rails & Triggers, MIL SPEC Buffers, etc.). As you are all aware, the German Government even views an upper as a complete firearm.

Enter the MCX.

Recently, Sig Sauer was awarded a contract by a DoD entity for the MCX. This left many people pondering what the requirement was for a 300 Blackout / 5.56x45mm "Low Visibility Assault Weapon". Unlike HK, Sig Sauer does not have the issues with the German government due to domestic manufacture and therefore no DMSMS issues. In addition, unlike the 416, the MCX was designed to be run suppressed without manipulation of gas settings and meets the Over The Beach requirements. In addition, the MCX is easily user configured and more compact than the 416.

Now, I would be remiss to say that the "End is Nigh" in regards to the 416s employment by our nation's elite. After all, there is still a plethora of events that need to happen. The MCX is a Commercial off the Shelf (CotS) item and most likely entered the acquisition cycle at Pre Milestone C. which means there still is a the hoops of initial operational testing and evaluation, low rate initial production, operational testing, full rate production etc. to complete before it is fielded. Some digging on fbo.gov will illustrate that there are current contracts in place for the 416 and components (as aforementioned). So, the question is; "Has SOCOM's recent acquisition of the MCX lined up with the expiration of the 416 contracts to position it a replacement?"

This is all "educated speculation", but remember, "So goes Bragg, so goes SOCOM". One would hope that HK would take this time to move production to the US to satisfy the civilian consumer market and reduce fiscal burdens on US and Foreign military and law enforcement sales. However, with upcoming elections and their current fiscal state, this is doubtful. I'm in no way suggesting that HK will go away, their current contracts with foreign militaries will keep them afloat if they restructure. However, if SOCOM goes to the MCX in the future, this may impact US consumer and law enforcement sales of carbines. Not to mention supportability due to the fact of increased cost transferred to the consumer or agencies using the MR556A1 or 416s. So, in the next few years, we may see the M27 IAR being the only 416 type platform in use by the DoD.

Hopefully this doesn't happen, because like the Bren Ten I used to have, I don't believe in owning a platform I can't enjoy because I can't fix it.
 
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#43 · (Edited)
Well, in reference to earlier posts on this thread and other threads; hopefully the recent turmoil in the German Ruling Coalition over the sale of Leopard II battle tanks to the Saudi's will shake the the foreign arms sales bans to the point that they allow small arm military sales to all of their allied nations and that HK can benefit from it. It seems there are a growing number of politicians who are pushing to allow more foreign arms sales. And don't hate me for it, but I am posting a link to Bloomberg News who reported it - German Split Opens Over Blocked Sale of Tanks to Saudi Arabia - Bloomberg Business

Certainly if they are going to allow heavy armour sales to the Mid East they would allow small arms, or one can hope.

RG
 
#48 ·
I love the MCX design, but I feel for any soldier that has to rely on Sig's manufacturing in life or death matters. Sig is pretty much the poster child for poor manufacturing quality.

That said, I hope someone steps up to the plate to replace HK, it's obvious the company has been mismanaged into the stone ages.

-W
 
#49 ·
…but I feel for any soldier that has to rely on Sig's manufacturing in life or death matters. Sig is pretty much the poster child for poor manufacturing quality.
Well, that poor manufacturing did ok by me, in combat with the M11A1 and 552

But, you could say about HK too in the realm of those unfortunate souls touting the G36.
 
#50 ·
There is a big difference between SIG and SIG SAUER and SIG SAUER USA... Your 552 would be an all Swiss made rifle. Your m11a1 was likely US made. My 4 SIGs are all Swiss and are very high quality. I suspecte SIG SAUER USA had to make some manufacturing compromises in order to price their weapons to be competitive on the US sporting market. With that said...I do not believe HK is going to need a "replacement" anytime soon...
 
#56 ·
I have to agree thus far with Cool Arrow....do you have any type of information to support your claim? I would love to hear it....I'm hoping that Arrow is incorrect...but from what I've read thus far......he's not blowing smoke. So please....elaborate with something other than a SWAG.
 
#54 ·
I and I'm sure others are growing weary of continuingly pulling this back on track from comments by those with all the appropriate acronyms in their signature blocks. Well, in regards to the signature blocks, there've been plenty of POGs assigned to ACE and USAISA. I could throw in something about quite professionals but it really is pointless. The last thing I'm going to say on this is IRT the Sig FRP quality issue and sunset of the 416 is :

1. The argument the protagonist was trying to make was that FRP Sigs were inferior.
2. My point was simple. The systems I employed, regardless of the fact if they were representative of a PIC/ECP of the legacy system, were still associated to the quality of Sig. And they didn't fail.
3. As aforementioned, the MCX still has quite a few gates to go through before fielding. And I am POSITIVE that the particular PMO associated to this effort will make sure it surpasses "good enough".
4. When the MCX does really replace the 416, LE will follow and so will the fan boys, heralding an end to the MR556A1 importation.

But this is all at least two years out.

So, why don't we lock this and revisit in two years?
 
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#71 ·
DG still runs the 416, and it works. The 300BLK is still an up and comer and is being utilized and recognized for the real world performance the cartridge offers. The MP7 is the deal in VBSS as anybody who has squeezed their way around a ship will understand that mission dictates the tool choice.
 
#72 ·
1. You're not Dev
2. You're not even in a SMU
3. You're not PO in a PMO

Ergo, you have no plateau from which to speak with any authority on what Dev is doing, and with what. In addition, you have NO CLUE as to how the acquisition process works. In regards to the latter, you would know that the particular unit the 416 started its life with at USSOCOM which if you'd actually read the first post just happens to be the very organization who is now taking delivery of the MCX. Because if you did, you'd know that as that unit goes, so will other tier one units. So, if you can't stay on topic, and that topic being the possibility of the MCX replacing the 416, you should just go back to asking the differences between BCGs and peddling AOR slings to Airsofters and fan boys.

And on the subject of slings, you should make the picture of the slings by your keyboard your avatar as it is appropriate on so many levels.
 
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