90'000 HK416A5 for France
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Thread: 90'000 HK416A5 for France

  1. #1
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    Default 90'000 HK416A5 for France

    Hi forum,

    yesterday Mr Heeschen has made an interesting announcement about France's new AR which will be revealed next June.

    Apparently still in the race are HK with the 416A5, FN Herstal and Sig Sauer.

    I would assume FN submitted the SCAR, while I'm not so sure about Sig Sauer. Given the track record of HK, as well as their capability to fit entire armies, I would assume the 416A5 will win the competition. It might also open up new cooperation strategies for France and Germany - also on a logistical basis. Germany as well plans to replace the 170K G36's, if went for the 416A5 this would allow further synergies.

    I know there is a lot of politics that flows into these deals, but really - the HK416A5 is just the best performer, more robust and with an excellent track record!
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    A lot of cash flowed into the HK because of the possibility .

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    More cash would flow, if the MR556A5 was introduced here!!!

    Tony

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    Good. Moar hk416 :)
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    The HK416A5 should be the leader in this tender from a technical performance standpoint.
    The SIG is likely the SIG516 or possibly the MCX.
    The French love for HK rifles should help also but there are also many other factors involved in the down-select.
    Time will tell if Mr. H is correct.
    G3Kurz

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    I am confident that HK will land the contract. As said, it will already be an insult to bypass the A5 as no other competitor has the same technical and operational track record. With the 416 we are already at the A5 stage, meaning several rounds of adjustments based on customer feedback.

    Politically, these deals come with offsets that are often almost as important if not more. As a partner, Germany is def. more interesting than let's say, Belgium. Furthermore HK has (in my opinion) more experience in providing creativeways of delivering its products. HK is listed on the french Euronext as well, might as well set up shop in France for good and work out a license deal or something like that. France gets jobs, HK gets $$$ one way or another. I doubt HK would produce 90K rifles in Oberndorf and ship them in cases straight to the front. There will be heavy involvement of the local French industry - this is a card HK could well play.

    Sig Sauer is a bit of a wild card for me. the 516 is after all, a piston AR. and the best in class is said to be the HK. At the end of the day perhaps both do the same job equally well, let's pretend the HK is a 2016 Benz and the Sig Sauer a 2015 Benz. I just do not see SIG Sauer's track record to fit an entire army with service rifles. Contract will extend over many many years etc.

    The SIG MCX is cool and something new. but let's not forget we are looking at a gun for the standard grunt who mistreats his rifle. The MCX seems almost too new and not nearly as robust as the HK. I have never touched one, but it seems way really too slick and high speed low drag for your average grunt.

    The SCAR is what it is - a gun for cool Spec Ops guy or collectors with deep pockets. Unless they make it a lot more robust I doubt it will make it to (any) large scale production.

    Being Swiss I would not mind France adopting our SIG Variant, but it's front heavy as sh*t and what's worse the new producer (SAN, former SIG) is in a state of chaos while the prices skyrocketed.

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    Your assessment makes sense Andy.
    One must also consider HK's financial shape over the past few years.

    Does a country like France want to gamble that HK will be there and able to deliver both rifles and spare parts and support after contract award?
    That all depends on the extent of due diligence the French govt explores into HK's financial status, its debts, those who control it and their past performance.
    HK has lost multiple tenders recently that they should have won around the globe in AUS, the US, France with the new LMG and elsewhere and we know current customers are considering seriously where they will be left hanging for parts and support should the company fold. I suspect their competitors are making sure the prospective customers know of HK's ills whether they be proven (financial woes) or misreported (G36 issues). It is a factor that must be considered and can determine the winner when all other factors are equal or near equal. Surely both SIG and FN would sell the guns at a loss just for the bragging rights for hope of follow-on business both in terror ravaged France and the rest of Europe.

    I personally would enjoy seeing the HK416A5 in service in France to a greater extent though that could extend current ownership which would be less desirable then new owners who truly care about the employees, the customers and HK's future. It is a double-edged sword.

    Time will tell.

    G3Kurz

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    Quote Originally Posted by G3Kurz View Post
    Your assessment makes sense Andy.
    One must also consider HK's financial shape over the past few years.

    Does a country like France want to gamble that HK will be there and able to deliver both rifles and spare parts and support after contract award?
    That all depends on the extent of due diligence the French govt explores into HK's financial status, its debts, those who control it and their past performance.
    HK has lost multiple tenders recently that they should have won around the globe in AUS, the US, France with the new LMG and elsewhere and we know current customers are considering seriously where they will be left hanging for parts and support should the company fold. I suspect their competitors are making sure the prospective customers know of HK's ills whether they be proven (financial woes) or misreported (G36 issues). It is a factor that must be considered and can determine the winner when all other factors are equal or near equal. Surely both SIG and FN would sell the guns at a loss just for the bragging rights for hope of follow-on business both in terror ravaged France and the rest of Europe.

    I personally would enjoy seeing the HK416A5 in service in France to a greater extent though that could extend current ownership which would be less desirable then new owners who truly care about the employees, the customers and HK's future. It is a double-edged sword.

    Time will tell.

    G3Kurz
    What deal did they lose in Oz? The Australians were never going to ditch the Austeyr because of the Lithgow/Thales connection - I presume your talking about that? Interested to know.

    I did see some announcement yesterday from H&K about some debt and loan deal, but didn't understand what that meant. I'd hope the listing gave them access to a reasonable stream of capital if they need it.

    Interesting reading all the UK newspapers today who are claiming to have won the war against ISIS because they have a new (Semi-auto) SIG 516 on the streets of London. :-)

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    While the 416A5 would certainly be a good choice, I wouldn't discount the SCAR as a viable contender. They're certainly capable and plenty robust. As an interesting side note, it looks like the SIG MCX is getting some use in the UK:

    England vs France match sees new counter terrorist police in military fatigues | Daily Mail Online

    I think the MCX may be a contender if SIG can get their manufacturing consistency where it needs to be. One advantage I think it may have is price. I would imagine the MCX could undercut both the 416 as well as the SCAR. When it comes to equipping a large entity, cost is a driving factor. Civilian models are listing on GB in the $1400 range.
    Last edited by Germanic; 11-19-2015 at 01:59 AM.

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    You can put lipstick on a pig, it's still a pig! Crap is still crap, and even at a cheap entry level price it still costs you more in the end. Beleive me, I build mobile networks for a living and the lowest price is NEVER the best choice for equipment and/or services. The old adage will always be applicable; you get what you pay for.


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