Over-the-beach test video: HK416 vs. Colt M4

[Federale]

And it's for reasons other than what Federale is implying, but I can't say what those reasons are.

Good grief guys, let's take a breath.

I didn't imply anything, all I said was that it should be obvious that this video is not a true and valid test for the reasons I listed in my first post on the subject. There's probably also the legal liability issue of taking a "competitor's" rifle and blowing it up under conditions that were not fuly explained in the video. (Is that why you can't speak to the reasons?)

As for the questions about whether the the HK is a "superior" system, I think we'll find out once they start becoming more available and not just talking about "in theory" or "some SOCOM guy told me...."

I'd caution that if you're an individual owner and you encounter the same problems with feeding that the SWAT team has, your reports on how HK comes and takes care of your expensive upper might be very interesting. There's a lot to be said about HK - both great and bad.

[HKPRO]

I didn't imply anything, all I said was that it should be obvious that this video is not a true and valid test for the reasons I listed in my first post on the subject. There's probably also the legal liability issue of taking a "competitor's" rifle and blowing it up under conditions that were not fuly explained in the video. (Is that why you can't speak to the reasons?)

As for the questions about whether the the HK is a "superior" system, I think we'll find out once they start becoming more available and not just talking about "in theory" or "some SOCOM guy told me...."

I'd caution that if you're an individual owner and you encounter the same problems with feeding that the SWAT team has, your reports on how HK comes and takes care of your expensive upper might be very interesting. There's a lot to be said about HK - both great and bad.

Implications don't have to be intended, but can be inferred by the recipient. Rightly or wrongly.

I don't know what the big deal is. Regardless of how the "test" was structured, it simply shows that you can do things with piston driven gun that you can't with a DI gun. Sure, the DI gun is fired probably a second faster than the 416. For that reason alone, the test should have been redone. But even so, I think there would have remained enough water to blow it up.

Now, can DI guns function wet? Sure. But if they aren't drained properly first, they can go boom.

It's funny to watch people's reactions. I am the head kool-aid drinker here. I believe in HK's product, find a lot that's good in their engineering.

Not so historically with their customer service.

But people are just DYING to discredit the 416, for whatever reasons they can come up with. Not saying you, Federale.

You can bet a TON of people will latch on to the 10-8 thread as a reason why all the "hype" about the 416 is BS and that the gun in reality just sux.



I don't discredit the DI guns, I merely like some things about the 416 that HK seems to have improved on. I don't like cleaning my DI AR nearly as much as my 416. I like that the 416 stays cooooooool when you shoot it. I ain't ever going swimming with it. Don't care how it does underwater.

I know that the 416 is getting good trigger time in the sandbox by the alphabet units. They happen to love it. I know that your HRT is looking hard at them if they haven't written the check for them yet.

There're lots of great DI guns out there. There're lots of great piston guns now too.

I just happen to think that the 416 is the pinnacle of the Stoner design development to date.

Someone else come up with something better? I'd admit that.

We shouldn't mix blaming the company and the justice department for the fact that they're not available for Joe Sixpack with the fact that the design sorta rocks. Combine that with the barrel quality and such, and it's a pretty GTG iteration of the Stoner design. Probably not a lot more can be done with it, except to invent more crap to hang on it.

Anyway, drive on--- :D

[HKPRO]

I JUST read the 416 thread on 10-8. Definitely a bad batch. They need to make that right.

I emailed HK management to call their attention to it, if they weren't already aware of what was being said about it.

[RyanH&K21EOwner]

I JUST read the 416 thread on 10-8. Definitely a bad batch. They need to make that right.

I emailed HK management to call their attention to it, if they weren't already aware of what was being said about it.

I agree Tom,

That was pretty poor over at 10-8 about the 416...

I will continue to stay on the sidelines thou agaisnt that crowd...

[Tspeis]

I think Federale has some very good points! This bothers me greatly since these uppers cost a fortune!

What I don't understand is why the HK416 doesn't include the M4 cuts because they greatly increase reliable feeding. I never had my civilian M4 jam because of those ramps.

If the M4 cuts are not used that might make me think twice about getting a 416 upper. Federale can the M4 cutts be added by custom gunsmithing later?

The feed ramps and locking lugs are of different geometry than a standard AR. This is not an issue.


Tspeis

[HarryCalahan1]

Tspeis this is very interesting and damn important if you're going to plunk down between $3,500-$5,000 for one of these uppers!

That bad batch of 416's has me seriously contemplating whether I wanna fork over as much $$ as these uppers go for!

The problem with the HK416 is that even the damn firing pin is proprietary as it's now in the 2nd Generation with a kooky firing pin spring, a different bolt and many different parts. The Generation one might be a different story but those are no longer available. Even with parts available from Center Mass, if anything goes bad you can't exactly send it back to HK and there are many sources for parts and servicing for a standard AR.

I also know from experience, with my old Colt preban I had a Les Baer Chrome Carrier/Bolt assembly with the one piece McFarlan gas ring and knew how to keep the sucker clean and I never had a jam with that rifle.

I could just as easily get 2 or 3 of those Les Baer complete carrier/bolt assemblies, wipe out the upper and lower insides with a Hoppes#9 soaked rag, shove a pipe cleaner down the gas tube, run a boresnake through the barrel and just throw a spare clean carrier/bolt assembly in until I get home.

Also a CMMG complete M4A1 SOCCOM with medium heavy SOCCOM-style barrel runs $1,150 or $1,500 with a Geissele match trigger. With the M4 cutts I know they're accurate and I know they work. I also came accross a fantastic product called "Carbon Cutter" that's a big help in cleaning! Also that leaves plenty of $$ left over for some high quality optics.

The other thing to consider is that with these elections if we get another B.S. ban what's the best weapon to have in terms of availability of parts and getting somebody to work on it? My buddy is a police officer and an armorer for the standard AR and helped me install the Colt match trigger in my Blue label preban. SO I'M HAVING SERIOUS 2ND THOUGHTS GIVEN THE $$ INVOLVED and a ban on the horizon.

[Tspeis]

Harry,


I am not going to try and convince you why I think you should buy a 416 upper. Get what is best suited for your needs. If you feel the cost of an upper is not justified, then by all means, go with something more cost efficient. For what it's worth, you as an individual CAN send your upper to HK if it needs servicing. Give them a call and find out for yourself. Hell, I've even had them offer to send out replacement parts for my personal upper when I had it. Gee wiz, they sure are a bunch of *******s, offering to send parts to an individual for a weapon that's not even commercially available! ;)

In all seriousness, I would not be worried about getting a bad upper. If you do, you can send it to HK. If you don't want to send it to them, Centermass Firearms has a certified HK416 armorer available to perform repairs on it.

In regards to the SWAT Team having problems with their HK416's, this is a perfect test to see how HK will handle problems like these. I think they'll get the team squared away in a timely manner. We'll see what happens.


Tspeis

[Tspeis]

Update on the issue with the SWAT Team and their problematic 416's.

Quote from the gentleman today:

Now a higher ranking H&K rep is en-route and will be here tomorrow or friday. I have to say that they are taking this seriously and appear to be very concerned.

LINK: http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads...=&fpart=1&vc=1

This appears to be a good sign. We'll see how things pan out. Hopefully the bad batch of guns was not too large and will not effect many other end users.


Tspeis

[Greg Bell]

people are just DYING to discredit the 416, for whatever reasons they can come up with.

God isn't that the truth.

[GunAggie]

Is it dumb that I want a 416 just because its a HK? Ive been wanting an AR for a while and Im already deep into the HK thing-I can buy one gun and kill two birds with one stone - plus HK seems to finish their weapons out well and I hate cleaning my guns soo clean is good for me-as for the video-i thought it was entertaining-not scientific-but definately not worth arguing over:)