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Thread: P7 at Rangemaster Class

  1. #1
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    aroundlsu's Avatar
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    Location : Southeast Louisiana
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    Default P7 at Rangemaster Class

    I took the Rangemaster Dynamic Marksmanship Class over the weekend (http://www.rangemaster.com/desc_dyna...ksmanship.html. Most of the other students had 1911s in competition rigs and half a dozen mags around their waist but I stuck to the theme of the class and wore exactly the clothes I do on a daily basis and brought my P7. This meant I'd be drawing from concealed on every drill and would have only two extra magazines. I'd also be firing over 1000 rounds for the weekend so I knew heat was going to be a factor. I was just going to have to tough it out.

    First of all, a little background. I've never be trained formally but I've been handling guns all my life, fire about 500 rounds a month at the range, carry daily, and have read just about every book out there. I know a lot about how to handle a gun. Or so I thought. After the first warm up drill I figured out I didn't know squat. Luckily, neither did most of the other students so I was in good company. After a few hours going over the basics however, we were all in good shape and ready to get to the serious stuff.

    Now, the P7 in action.

    The heel release. I was the only one allowed to perform tactical reloads since it's really the only way with a heel release but trying to perform tactical reloads under pressure is very difficult. I've practiced this thousands of times and can do it flawlessly. During the class, I was even reloading consistently faster then most of the other students with their 1911s doing speed reloads. However, during my final test which required 100% hits to pass the course and with everyone watching I got in a hurry and dropped the magazine during the reload. I managed to grab my second spare off my belt and finished the course just in time but it was still a bad screw up. To be fair, other shooters dropped their magazines during speed reloads so it might be more about the stress than the heel release.

    The squeezecocker. At least twice, under pressure, I didn't squeeze the cocker far enough and I lost time trying to figure out what the problem was. Towards the end of my first day my hand was cramping up pretty bad. The second day I didn't have any problems at all.

    The sights. I just have the standard sights. I was planning to get night sights but after this class I don't think so. We did several dim light drills and even shot with our eyes closed. I did just fine. If you just bring the gun up and pull the trigger like you've been all along you'll hit what's in front of you. Under pressure at six feet or less I don't think I'm even looking at the sights.

    The heat. OK, yeah the gun got f'n hot but I really didn't feel it during drills. I brought gloves but I was unable to reload magazines fast enough with gloves on so that didn't last long. I mostly felt the heat during breaks while it was burning a new hole into my ass through my holster. I fixed it by putting a towel between the holster and me. After the class I noticed my hand was blistered in several spots from the heat. Oh well, combat hurts.

    Malfunction drills. Stove pipes and misfires were easy but clearing a double feed was a nightmare. I had to transition to my left hand to lock the slide back which made the instructor angry to no end. He didn't really understand that the P7 has an itty bitty slide lock and I've figured out no other way to use it except in my left hand. From there clearing the double feed was supposed to be as easy as dropping the mag and racking the slide a few times except when I did it with the P7 the round in the chamber got hung up somehow and took forever to clear. Eventually I figured out it took an extremely hard rack on the slide to clear both rounds successfully. That of course, cut my hand up. Combat hurts.

    Accuracy. Most of the drills were at six feet or less so I think even my Drozd would be sufficient at that distance. We did one drill at 40 yards against a steel target and I hit it two out of three times. I was grouping as well as or better than all the other students. In fact, I noticed my follow up shots were consistently better then other students which is no doubt due to the low recoil of the 9mm and the P7 versus their 45s.

    Performance and Reliability. The twenty five year old P7 performed perfectly. Out of over 1000 rounds there were zero malfunctions. I can't say the same for other people. One guy lost a spring, another had a compact 1911 that was constantly jamming, I watched another guy's 1911 magazine break apart when it hit the ground, and someone else's Sig just didn't fire at all once. Could have been a bad round, I dunno.

    The comments. Everyone certainly thought I was completely insane, instructor included. First of all for choosing something as esoteric (instructor's word) as a P7, second of all for choosing 9mm. As far as the 9mm vs 45 argument goes, if I can perform in real life the triple tap to the chest then two the head like I was in the drills I don't think the bad guy is really going to know the difference. Combat hurts.

    The class and instructors. Take it! Even though he didn't like my P7, Tom Givens is a great teacher. He's patient (to a point), laid back, and really knows his stuff. He said forty four of his students have been involved in gun battles and they've all won and none of them have been charged or sued. That's good enough for me.
    Last edited by aroundlsu; 11-16-2007 at 07:01 PM.

    USP .45 CT with Gemtech Blackside
    P7 PSP, P7M10, P7M8
    Kel-Tec P-3AT
    Mossberg 500 x 2 Russian SKS
    150lb Great Dane

  2. #2
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    Greg Bell's Avatar
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    They are typical of people who think just because they don't understand something that they somehow know better. A P7 is a far more reliable carry gun than any 1911. It is smaller, safer, etc. Running endless tactical and speed reloads is lots of fun, but not much of an issue with non-sporting shooters. Let's face it, the P7 is not the first gun you would carry to a battle field, it is a PDW for Police and civvies not "contractors" and game shooters. In it's intended field, it is probably the best you will find.



    Also, double-feeds in a P7 are basically about as common as million dollar lotto tickets. I can see why 1911 folks would think it was super important though. Clearing a phase III with a psp can done with the right hand by using your right hand's thumb on the release. I have practiced this forever and find it easy. Guess how many times I have got to use in in 16 years of shooting p7s? NEVER.

    My method...

    Tap, rack, no bang
    Thumb the lock, rip the mag, work the slide 3 times like a mad man, insert new mag.
    Boy, if you try and pee out a forrest fire all you are going to get is a burnt pecker.

  3. #3
    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    sfguard's Avatar
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    Sounds like a fun class. I have to agree about being insane for taking a P7 the burns on your hands prove that. I would have taken my P30 but still sounds like a fun class. In fact I need to look around and find some more training and take my P30 to it. Thanks for the report

  4. #4
    Unrepentant HKHolic
    Mark71's Avatar
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    Thanks for the detailed range report. I always like reading how the P7's hold up during extensive training classes.

  5. #5
    Gets the Shakes if No HK Contact in 24 Hour Period

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Bell View Post
    They are typical of people who think just because they don't understand something that they somehow know better. A P7 is a far more reliable carry gun than any 1911. It is smaller, safer, etc. Running endless tactical and speed reloads is lots of fun, but not much of an issue with non-sporting shooters. Let's face it, the P7 is not the first gun you would carry to a battle field, it is a PDW for Police and civvies not "contractors" and game shooters. In it's intended field, it is probably the best you will find.



    Also, double-feeds in a P7 are basically about as common as million dollar lotto tickets. I can see why 1911 folks would think it was super important though. Clearing a phase III with a psp can done with the right hand by using your right hand's thumb on the release. I have practiced this forever and find it easy. Guess how many times I have got to use in in 16 years of shooting p7s? NEVER.

    My method...

    Tap, rack, no bang
    Thumb the lock, rip the mag, work the slide 3 times like a mad man, insert new mag.
    Hey G. how about an update on the break-my-p2000 project? HK still winning?
    Bit bad by 'da HK bug
    hmmmm which one shall I get next?

  6. #6
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    Excellent report and thank you for it-- I took a day long combat class given by my department with my P7M8 and other than the heat issues I was similarly pleased.

  7. #7
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    Shakey's Avatar
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    I find 100-250 rounds at the range to be more than tolerable with either my PSP, or my M8. They do get warm, but the guns are such a pleasure to shoot. I've yet to blister my hand on them though. Thanks for the report. I need to get into some serious training some day soon.

  8. #8
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    Greg Bell's Avatar
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    Softmentor,

    The P2000 is unstoppable. My best guess is it is at 15k these days. I just got bored with it. If I start back I will tell you.


    What I really want to do is a break my P7 thread.

  9. #9
    Gets the Shakes if No HK Contact in 24 Hour Period
    deadboy's Avatar
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    Greg, you do realize that when you said you wanted to break your P7, it was post #666?

    That is because the P7 is such a good CCW, it is holy. Anyone who does not like the P7, is a heathen and must be punished by being hit with an extension cord.

    Thanks to the original poster for letting us know how the mighty P7 fared.

    Talk about invaluable practice!
    I believe in people, free thought and sincere faith more than any earthly institution.

    Except maybe HK. Maybe.

  10. #10
    Very Senior Member
    aroundlsu's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the replies, guys. My hand has just now healed to the point where I can grip the P7 without wrenching in pain!

    I'm planning to attend the Houston Pistol/mp5 shoot in December and trying to decide which gun to use. The P7 or the USP CT? Maybe the P7 on Saturday for the pistol course and the USP CT on Sunday for the mp5 course? Or maybe the Kel-tec .380 both days? OK just kidding. Don't ban me.

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