Well said, and poor JimBob..
There are many folks who make weapons based upon the existing HK weapon platforms and systems. Each of these folks have enterprises that excel in various aspects of design and construction of the weapons. Each of these manufacturers is proud and possessed of opinions that may or may not agree with those of other manufacturers. Each of these manufacturers also has its supporters and detractors. Since this is a discussion board, opinions tend to get expressed.
This is HKPro. The Pro part is for "professional" and the administrators and moderators of this board have an expectation of professional behavior. That professional behavior includes the manner in which posts are made in support or crtique of a given manufacturer's product or business practices. You are allowed to be factual. You are not allowed to be petty, snarky, abusive or vulgar. Posts have been deleted and members have been banned for failing to abide by this policy, even after repeated warnings. This will continue to happen, where warranted.
There are lots of new people joining the forum and understanding the basic concepts of how this forum works and the behavioral expectations of posting etiquette will go a long way to making sure that your contributions will be accepted as apart of the discussion.
- Feedback for a transaction that began as the result of HKPpro goes in the iTrader system of this forum. Feedback for transactions that did not start here go in the Outside Feedback section.
- Factual posts are welcome. Example: "I received an XX from a customer for repair. This is what I found." Emotional posts are not welcome. Example: "I've seen JimBob's builds. His work sucks."
- Speaking on behalf of another manufacturer without their permission is not a good idea.
- Understand that credibility is an issue. If you are brand new here and your first post is a screed against one builder and then you prop up another builder in the same post, extra scrutiny is going to be applied.
- We welcome the sharing of experience, but it MUST BE PROFESSIONAL. Be factual.
And now a small bit on the classic Euler diagram that pertains to the constraints of overall product delivery:
In any product delivery you are faced with the options of Fast, Good and Cheap, and can only maximize two. Here Fast refers to the time required to deliver the product, Good is the quality of the final product, and Cheap refers to the total cost of designing and building the product. This triangle reflects the fact that the three properties of a project are interrelated, and it is not possible to optimize all three – one will always suffer. In other words you have three options:
- Design something quickly and to a high standard, but then it will not be cheap.
- Design something quickly and cheaply, but it will not be of high quality.
- Design something with high quality and cheaply, but it will take a long time.
When you add into the mix the fact that availability of parts injects further constraints of their own (good, fast, cheap), the world of HK clone building begins to involve cascading layers of the matrix. Now here's the important part that many folks miss: The final decision of whether something is good/bad, fast/slow, or cheap/expensive does NOT lie with the maker! The customer decides what is what. And frankly, that is the only opinion that matters. While a blend of two of the three aspects is possible, nailing all three really is not. In Ryan Matthews' book The Myth of Excellence, the fallacy of a company trying to be all things in all aspects is revealed. The truly great companies know that they can only be great at ONE of the three because doing more than one necessitates a compromise in the others. Wal*Mart is known for great prices. Their quality is good enough and the "speed" of the experience is variable (the product may or may not be in stock, you may or may not be able to quickly find it and you may or may not be able to get through the checkout line in short order).
The clone world is not immune to the constraints of this dynamic. You want it fast? Guess what is going to suffer? You want flawless finish and ultra high tolerances? It's not gonna be cheap. And on...
This forum banned the discussion of a certain maker's product for a very long time because of all of the rancor and emotion that was injected into the stream of conversation. We could easily get to the point where *all* clone discussion is eliminated from this forum because of the exact same issues. That would be a HUGE disappointment to me, the other mods and this community. The clone world provides an effective and needed alternative for products that are otherwise unobtainable. So I am going to ask each of you to be very deliberate and professional in your posts regarding clones. That includes the manufacturers, the supporters, those with an issue and the general community. BE PROFESSIONAL.
Last edited by straightgrain; 12-13-2019 at 02:45 PM.
Well said, and poor JimBob..
Used to own: HK4 (.32/.22), VP70Z 9mm, P9S 9mm, P7 PSP(A/Nds), P30LS LEM, VP9, MP5A2-PCS, HK91 (Namibian), Saudi Tan G3, PTR51-PCS, PTR-91 GI
Mark 23, USP45 Stainless, USP45 Gray, USP45T, USP40 SS/FBI, USP9c, (2) P2000SK v2 LEM, USP9 (LEM & V1), P30L 9mm, P7M13(II), USC, UMP, G36K (x2)
PSG-8, 33K, MKE AT-94K, MR556A1, PSG-1 (KC), M3 Super 90, CA89, PTR-91F, Benelli M1014 SE, USP40/USP40CC/USP40c/USP45/USP45T/Mark 23
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thanks a lot