I have zero doubt these were well tested. The issue becomes once they are released to the public, there are new variables in play.
Hopefully my ETS mags get here soon, if not, I'll move on to other projects. Not much point in reviewing something which has already been covered a bunch of times by other people.
Last edited by Superstar; 08-04-2018 at 03:29 PM. Reason: Grammar
Hmmmmm, not a single one yet.
ETS has been here. I've been watching since my last post in which I asked some very pertinent questions. See, they made an account here, for the sole purpose to address this thread. So, it is a simple matter of checking their profile page, which displays latest activity, or when the user logs back in. Since my last post, ETSgroup as logged in no fewer than six times. Since it could easily seem that their main interest here is this thread, they certainly seen my post and the questions that I raised. Yet they failed to make any effort to address those issues.
Just by appearances then, it could easily seem that Youtube was the best source to test the AR and Glock mags, and HK Pro the best place to get the MP5 mags tested. There aren't enough Youtubers and bloggers based solely on roller locks.
Now, as to my main issues/questions, why would it be so hard to prove these are made in the U.S., or make known an actual physical company location? I find it so very hard to believe that have covered their initial bases so very well, and were simply stupid as to what an "About Us" page should look like. What could be their motives for hiding their business location behind a P.O. address, or failing to provide full disclosure as to where the manufacturing takes place? I don't care if they have it contracted out. That's just simple business. They don't need to own an actual factory of any kind to produce a product. But if they want to say Made in the U.S.A., then that claim needs verification. If they cannot, or will not verify it, it isn't true.
Let me ask everyone here that is a veteran, does it not piss you off to find someone claiming to be one, that obviously isn't? Stealing valor? Same thing with Made in U.S.A. Prove it. It is a very simple thing for anyone to have anything made in a another country and shipped back with your own logo on it, even MADE IN USA stamped on it.
I'm not trying to be an ass. I just want simple truth with fact. When my questions get avoided, it annoys me.
Everyone here that purchased these, best of luck to you all, and I thank everyone for sharing their experiences. As a rundown, the research I did showed that the ETS AR15 mags are really enjoyed by the owners with really high reviews. The Glock mags tend to lean on the low side with around a 50% or lower being neg reviews. This is from distributor websites like Brownell's and such, doing random look-sees.
I would also like to add, that, while yet again random pain keeps me awake tonight, further discoveries allow me what I believe a better insight. I certainly do not believe that a charade, or fraud is taking place. I would also never indulge anyone's personal info in a public forum. I have also removed info that may have allowed anyone else clues to such information. To two kindly gentlemen, please note that.
Last edited by Jarden; 08-04-2018 at 09:44 AM. Reason: addition
1. I think you are crazy with this one, I can't believe for a minute someone actually thinks that is true. A company would lose so much money it would be obscene having to retool and remold as opposed to having done the work correctly themselves. You have to remember ETS is not inventing the MP5 magazine, they are simply taking a known polymer and adapting it to known dimensions while creating reinforcements where needed. A follower isn't exactly a secret. The material they are using is already a given. The springs aren't novel. Creating heating and cooling cycles for a known end size is a variable that is consistent. Having HK Pro test magazines? I have to laugh, half the internet is filled with liars, agendas, and drama... and that is on a good day. A company would be insane to go along the lines you suggest.
2. Full disclosure as to where manufacturing takes place? Why in the world would they want to do that? Molds are made and run in certain places, and quite often from a variety of places so you aren't out of business if one mold breaks or one location has a fire, work shortage, or other issue. I personally know of much larger companies that do injection molding, and it occurs all over the place. They could never say "Made in Pittsburgh PA", as there are plenty of other places making them same thing, and they might stop doing business with any of them.
3. Yes, I am a veteran. I am one of the many who has worn a military uniform and then gone into Police work. Are you a vet? I ask because Made in the USA has nothing to do with me having served in combat or having killed people. Not even a little close. I would go so far as to say that you are pretty close to, if not over the legal line for libel, not that I think ETS would sue you, however, you are making one heck of an accusation that would appear to be slanderous in nature and capable of causing a company harm. All because they won't tell you the exact location where one of their magazines was manufactured. Do you demand location inspections next to determine if its true yourself? I think not. Like I said for #2, mold items are often made in many places, and suppliers can change for a variety of reasons. I don't see any large secrets with this one. Then again, I deal with a lot of companies in the firearm industry, so I guess I may be more used to some of this than most people. Seriously, this isn't uncommon.
4. You aren't the only one who lives with pain, I hope you are able to get to some point tonight where you can get a little relief. Hang in there, and I honestly hope things get better for you!
4a. I must have missed the part with personal information posted, but cleaning it up was probably a good idea.
Lastly, for my own experiences with ETS magazines, I have some I use in my AR15s, and they work fine. I have Glock mags, but I only use them in my pistol caliber carbines (PCC), and they have done fine as well. I do not have as many rounds through ETS AR mags as I do aluminum or PMAG, but still enough that I'm comfortable with them. I have ZERO experience with the ETS MP5 magazines.
I understand what you are saying, and I don't disagree. However, the time involved for the write up and photography for a review online is similar to that of an article I write for printed publications. If there are plenty of reviews already available on a product like the ETS MP5 magazines, it isn't worth my time as I have plenty of other items which are new and not reviewed that I could be working on. Hopefully that makes some sense.
I also agree there are bottom feeder companies that mess up a product and sell it anyway. I do not believe ETS is one of those companies. The companies that do that sort of activity become known pretty quick and are typically short on cash flow. ETS coming out with a variety of sizes for the MP5 magazine tells me they are not short on cash flow or in a position where they need to raise capital quickly. To be honest, I'm not sure why ETS would show their entire hand and drop all the mags on the market at the same time. If it were my company, I would have done 30 round magazines first as they are most common. Then while the 30 was still hot, I would release the 40 rounder. After that, I would have waited six months or so, and released the 20s, followed by a 10. I would have done this with the knowledge that it would have sold more magazines, and gained me a steady stream of income to fund the other projects. ETS is evidently in a position where they do NOT need to think along those lines, which would lead me to believe they are already designing if not testing magazines for other platforms.
Just my two cents.
1. I said specifically, because of what is available, and exactly what happened. As I also stated more than once, search it. There were pages available of testing reviews. I did not count them, I did not go visit every page. I watched the initial opens of many of them though. Every one started with..."We were just sent these for review..." That was for both the Glock and AR mags. Did the same search show up ANY similar results for the MP5 mags? The answer is no. So for APPEARANCES.... that means it could easily be in question, not to assume.
2. & 3. I might could have spelled this point out a little better, but the two are actually combined. The whole point revolves around accountability. There is no call for proof of manufacture for a business in the U.S. when the company has their info listed, and it is even acceptable practice to label Made in the US, even if it is only assembled here using foriegn made parts. There are even various sites that are manufacturer listings by products. Yet each and every day, more and more people are taken in by bogus individuals making false claims that simply aren't true. Terms such as US made, and even mentioning or implying vets, are used to play on people's patriotism, to coerce them to further loosen their pocketbooks. U.S. citizens are bilked out of millions every year by phony scams, fake websites, and other activities. They do this by hiding any info that may give them away. So,when that information is not made available, then anyone has the right to ask for confirmation. Possibly terming it FULL disclosure may sound more itemized than I intended. A simple guesture such as ...."Yes, our products are U.S. made with most manufacturing taking place in Indiana". Anything, even similar would easily suffice, as the person stating it is then takes responsibility and is accountable for their statement. Therefore, there is nothing wrong, or anywhere near libelous in nature, by asking for confirmation of a claim made, when there is no apparrent vehicle available for accountability otherwise. The website itself does not serve this purpose as they are commonly built and provided by third parties.
4a. I didn't post any personal information. I did post info that could be taken as a clue for someone else to find it. So, yes, I removed it.
In closing then, as I made no secret of the fact that I am a PICKY sob. So, I can also be a bit outspoken at times, but when I do, it is to normally point out things I see as issues. When I see evidence that leads to suspicion, I point it out so that honest people can avoid those appearances. You will never know how much business you potentially lost, by omitting a few lines of text that people might want to see, and some individuals will get their cash taken away easily because they did not know what to look for, or what to notice that isn't there.
I don't normally intend to voice critisism when I see just a thing here, or a thing there. I voice it when I see several, that can lead to, or be termed a pattern. That doesn't mean anything nefarious is taking place, it means "be aware of your surroundings", whether you inadvertently created them yourself, or you just walked into it.
No one will ever know how many sales were lost, because of what is not there. People often make subconcious decisions. They will look at something they believe they like, and end up passing on it, without even identifying why. Maybe it's because of what they didn't see, like any mention of three important parts, or nice clear images from different angles. Yet when they look at other brands, those mentions and images are most often there, so the decision is easier without that hesitation, because they know what they like, and are used to how that is normally best presented and described.
So, just for an example, I bet you know what type springs are in your other AR mags, because it's an important part, and it is in the item descrption. I don't make it habit to point things out to be an ass. I do it in attempt to help.
I believe that ETS might be two of the nicest guys you ever met. I believe they both work their asses off to further their dreams and ambitions. I don't believe either one has any ill-intent whatsoever, and I believe they are both doing whatever is in their ability to make a good reliable product and make their customers happy.
You are confusing marketing reviews, with product testing. They are two very different things. When as you state, everyone starts out with, "We were just sent these for review...", it is pretty clear they were sent the items for reviews under marketing purposes. I still don't see how you are drawing a link between this and product testing before release. I'm sent items to do testing before product release on a regular basis. I'm sitting on a bunch of items in my safes right now that people will never see in the current configurations as testing has shown them to need changes before being released. Testing items for product development is not the same as doing reviews for marketing and publicity. When I do product testing, it is very clear that is the intent. When I do reviews, it is very clear that is the intent.
On the second and third points, I can see you find them linked together for your purposes. However, you are going on about things which have nothing to do with the MP5 magazine from ETS, and have nothing to do with ETS as a company. Your focus appears to be on wanting to know where the items are made, and they have stated they are made in the USA. You have made it very clear that answer is not good enough for you, and that you want specifics. I mentioned above that a company doing molding likely has work being done in multiple places, and that since sources change, there is no way to put made in a certain place. It appears you don't accept that as an answer either, but I don't think the vast majority of people care what cities, counties, states items are made in.
I do appreciate the civil banter back and forth. Too many times on the internet people read inflection the wrong way as soon as someone disagrees.
I had hi hopes but was skeptical. I had one of these glock style mags for a AR9. I had a hard time loading it to capacity, once fully loaded the mag almost seemed to swell and fit the gun mag well much tighter than a real glock mag, loaded it didn't want to drop free, once using factory 9 FMJ ammo the bottom two rounds got cocked length wise front to back in the mag and locked to follower up tight. After that I never used it again
I am not actualy confusing anything. It is a magazine, consisting of four parts, not rocket science. A very simple piece of equipment. Because of all the variants, I would do the same thing to speed up the process, and know if any changes were necessary to deliver a successful product. Give these people ten or so mags for free, with a note, "If you run into any serious deviations, please let us know before posting reviews, so we can make corrections to our final line". This gives everyone new material for their videos channels, and free stuff, which they enjoy. Everyone is happy, and the testing in multitudes of variants is complete.
The second and third points are not linked for my purposes, but by common sense alone. I had possibly assumed you lived in the USA, now I am uncertain. You see, I believed that most people here, are aware of our Consumer Protection Laws, and our FTC's Truth in Advertising laws. We then have laws that state "the ad must be truthful, not misleading, and, when appropriate, backed by scientific evidence." That has everything to do with ETS as a company, as they inadvertantly walk a fine line by being a virtual company in presence. Since no evidence exsists in their ad, their website, that they are even located in the US, the term "possibly misleading" comes into play. Therefore it is totally appropriate to ask for confirmation of such claims. I believe that most people understand that concept. Even a judge reviewing, might in fact say, "since you have made claims that are not clearly evident, we now want you to state "specifically" ......
Lastly, yes, that is true. Most people DON'T care where specifically where anything is made. They don't care about how vague an ad or website for purchase may be, because they understand they are protected here by truth in advertising, and consumer protection laws. So they take much for granted, and often, even regularly assume very much. I do not allow my personal opinions to be based on what other's may "think". Because we have these laws in this country, people are empowered. They are allowed to stand up and speak for their rights and call into question, whenever doubt is present. We are allowed to hold those who make claims accountable for them. If we could not, if it were truly deemed inappropriate and inadvisable, it would not be the USA, but a state run agency such as in a communistic society.
Some of the issue we debate here is subjective. Points I have made are based on observable fact. So, yes, ETS has stated that the product is made in the USA, and yes, I have stated that that claim alone is not good enough, based on observable facts. Those facts are, that there is no evidence stated, or even mention of, an actual physical U.S. location of either the manufacture, or the company itself. Show me what I missed, the evidence, that would prove otherwise, that is not led by assumption.
You can feel free to assume as much as you wish, however, assumptions are not based on facts. You may feel so strongly as to your assumptions, that they should not be freely challenged by anyone else with a differing opinion. My rebuttal would be, let the facts be simply made known, so that assumptions may lay aside. Let us not debate, based soley on assumption. As a citizen of the United States, I am offered certain inalienable rights, and those rights include a challenge to clams that are not made postively evident.
Yikes. I never thought a mag thread would have so much "passion". I am glad my mag works and may pick up another one but if it didn't I would have taken their offer to send it back for a refund, shrugged my shoulders and moved on.