No idea on that, but figured I'd weigh in on the beast. Friendly salesguy at my local fun store handed me one today to get a feel on. Wow, that's one big handful of ass on that gun. Truly a modern beast.

 

Operators still have MK23's in their inventory, but choose sidearms based on the mission. During my last go around in the sandbox, I saw a Army specialist from one of the SF support companies carrying a MK23 but he wasn't an operator.

 

I have been told the SEALs no longer have the MK23 in their inventory, same goes for MP5-N. MP5SD still around. I didn't specifically ask if it was all SEALs or just Team 7 who didn't-just wanted to clarify to avoid spreading info that isn't true.

 

I had heard that those guns never were used all that much and weren't even liked all that well because of their ridiculous size.

 

This is the most accurate post yet. Once they saw the size, they were unimpressed. What happened after that was they saw the standard USP 45 and requested certain features added. Thats how we got the USP Tactical. And from what I understand, they've come full circle and are now happier with 1911's.

This is from my bro in the Rangers who's deployed 3 times. I tend to trust his first hand account of the people he worked directly with.

 

This poor gun is so often maligned for it's size... it weighs the same as a 1911A1 and is only 1 inch longer and that's almost all barrel. Put a threaded barrel on a 1911 and they'd be about the same. The same that is except one is reliable, accurate, robust, can handle salt water and holds more ammo.

 

I'm no 1911 fan, but to say the Mk23 is "just one in longer" ignores the fact that it is larger in every dimension, far bulkier, substantially more top-heavy, etc. There's really no comparison.

To answer the OP's question: no, SOCOM is not using the Mk23. Very few units within the .mil ever did.

 

I heard on this forum or other that the issue is more of getting a budget for .45 ammo approved (as opposed to 9mm beloved by the military beuracracy), than the gun itself. The same guy said that some teams loved Mk23 and some didn't, and that they do indeed pick a tool for a mission. I could possibly dig it up, but am sure any search for Mark 23/Mk23 on this forum will produce some reliable info.
Oh, and I totally agree with ripley16 that compared to 1911 Government (which I just traded in for NIB P30) Mark 23 is roughly the same size, and definitly not heavier. I have also posted on this forum side by side Mark 23 - FNP 45 comparison, and the latter, although about 1.8" shorter, looks and feels much bulckier (I sold mine once I got Mark 23). Again, likes and preferences are very subjective. I certainly enjoy shooting mark 23 much more than I used to my Colt or FNP 45.

 

Here is a repost of some info I had found on the Mark 23 and it's use a while back.

The Mark 23 had a purpose and it has a special history. If I could only have one handgun the rest of my life, it is the one that would last that long. if I knew an attack was pending and I could only have a handgun with me, it would be the Mark 23. Coppied below is a "history" of the gun as told by a Seal from another forum. Always liked this particular post. The USP Tactial is fantastic (I have 2 of them) but just isn't as unique as the Mark is. IMO


(Start of Frogman post)

You can’t really tell the Mk 23 story without telling parts of the Beretta and SIG story, as well. The Beretta 92F was largely the result of a specific SEAL Team urging Beretta to modify a few things with the standard 92 for the unit’s use. Things like moving the magazine release from the butt to the frame, re-shaping the trigger guard…etc. This particular SEAL Team had Beretta 92F’s before the U.S. military ever went to the “M9”. During the testing for the new U.S. standard issue sidearm SIG actually slightly outperformed the Beretta. I was told that it wasn’t chosen because Beretta slightly beat the price point over SIG. The real answer is probably a bit more complicated than that, but Beretta did eventually win . The trials lasted a long time during which life went on in the Teams…until Berettas starting failing in the SEAL Teams. I remember those days well. The Teams had a lot of loyalty to the pistol, but all of that ended when Beretta publicly accused the Teams of routinely firing “hot” ammo through the guns. Not a true statement. The Teams dropped the Beretta and were authorized to purchase an “interim” handgun to fill the bill until the ink was dry on the government standard sidearm contract. The Teams bought SIGs and began a loyalty o that system which persists even still.

It wasn’t too long before Army SOF began to sour on the Beretta. Their problem was that they already had M1911A1’s on their TOA&E. The military being what it is, you can only have one caliber of a particular type of like equipment. Army SOF began to work the issue by conceptualizing an “Offensive Handgun” different in definition and .45 ACP. This was just post Desert Storm. SEAL SIGs had been in inventory for 2-3 years and folks were starting to recall that the P226 was only an “interim” buy. Someone was caught using improper justification for a second purchase of SIGs by Congress. During the dust-up which followed Army SOF approached Navy SOF through Crane with the “Offensive Handgun” concept. The Navy could take the lead on the project and if it came off both the Army and Navy SOF would enjoy a new .45 cal handgun. The “Offensive Handgun” project felt the influences of many opinionated pistoleros. A long list of features was drawn up.

Eventually both Colt and HK submitted Phase One Prototypes for endurance testing. I was actually one of the SEALs who had to fire 30,000 rounds through a Colt and HK pistol over the course of a week in 1994 and document every failure. Not as fun as you might think.

We also took the revamped (Phase Two) prototypes to Rogers’ Shooting School for testing (that was fun) in early 1995. I and several other SEAL Team “bullet heads” went to the testing with malice in our hearts not only for the gun but the very concept of the gun. Our intent was to shoot it better than anyone else and then slam it in the critiques.

The gun grew on us haters. That simple. It was dead accurate, big- yes, but manageable. With a suppressor on it is unlike any other handgun.

It was finally issued around 1996 or so. I used it in winter warfare a lot, for over the beach work and diving. I preferred my SIG for assaults. Later in my career I did a lot more diving and over the beach work. The Mk 23 was awesome at that stuff. It is the best weapon to have in a hide site when lying up with a Team in a concealed position. You can bring it to bear day or night on anyone sneaking up on you. It is accurate even after blowing through your hide site material, the suppressor is pretty quiet and the LAM lets you get away with a lot. I used it and trained many other SEALs to use it very capably. The SEAL Teams that did not dive as much as, say, SDV Teams neglected their Mk 23’s. The Mk 23’s strengths were not as obvious to those guys who weren’t swimming and diving all the time. Last year a message came out to turn in all Mk 23’s to Crane. At least one SDV Team flatly refused. A few other Teams suddenly decided they should keep a “few”. So those at NAVSPECWARCOM who had sent the message in the first place restricted the expenditure of .45 ammo, instead. SDV Teams now have Mk 23s but no ammo allowance. They even ordered S&W 686’s from Crane to outfit their guys because a SIG will not survive a long dive very well. I know of a handful of guys who have taken their issue Mk 23’s overseas since the ammo cut-off because they know they can get the ammo there and have actually carried them in missions far from the water.

That’s the story in nutshell. What else would you like to know?

Frogman
__________________

 

99999 thanks for posting that. That was a great post to read. Its a shame they can't get anymore ammo though.

 

Thanks 99999

That was a sweet post. Anothe example of why HK Forum is great!

Alex

 

What any of our special operations forces use for weapons is probably not a discussion that should be held in open forum... just my 2-cents worth.

 

Somehow I doubt any current and sensitive info will be leaked on HK forums.

Besides the real weapons are the men behind the guns. Those guys are dangerous regardless of the firearm's in their hands.

 

It was said that the Beretta-92 was chosen over the SIG-226 , because the Italian government owed us money and it was a way to get reimbursed ... Supposedly , the SIG 226 did better in the trials than the 92 ...

 

This is the first time I've heard people argue that the Mk23 isn't big and bulky. I've owned a USP Tactical, and it seemed considerably blockier and bigger than my 1911, couldn't imagine how much larger the Mk23 is.

 

Nobody is saying it isn't big, but it gets undue invective thrown at it IMHO. People seem surprised that a combat sidearm with a 6" barrel, in .45acp with a 12 round capacity and created to be more robust than any previous pistol would be large. Gosh...who'd have thought? What would a 1911 look like that had the same capabilities I wonder? The MK23 feels little different in the hand than your USP.

 

Great read. Thanx again for posting Frogman's story. I could have sworn he has posted on this forum in the past (I recognize the name) & his avatar is a drawing/rendering of a seal member if I recall. I wonder if any used SEAL Mark 23's were ever resold to the public (similar to the police trade-ins) you always see popping up for sale.

 

The XM9 trial results are public information. The SIG did better in some areas. So if you ask SIG, they say it did better. If you ask Beretta, they say the Beretta did better or at least as well. The selection process at the time was "of all the guns that meet the minimum requirements, lowest bidder wins." On the first round of bids, SIG had the lower price. But then the government decided to add more spare parts to the overall contract and called for a second bid. SIG kept its price steady (basically gave all the spare parts at no cost). Beretta actually lowered its price, and thus won the contract. There have been all sorts of conspiracy theories about how & why Beretta would lower its price, and there was even a 60 Minutes piece on the fact that the U.S. was trying to get nuclear missile sites in Italy at the time and the M9 contract might have been a little quid pro quo. Beretta's official version of events is that when they had a chance to re-bid for a "best & final" they low-balled it because they wanted the contract.

Regarding the size/1911 thing, I don't believe anyone is comparing capabilities. So yes, a 1911 that did everything the Mk23 did would be huge, too, if such a thing were even possible. But from a CCW standpoint or even most uniformed/mission profiles, the two simply don't compare.

 

A major factor in choosing Beretta over SIG was that Beretta said they would build all of them at a plant in the US (Maryland).

 

That's incorrect. Part of the XM9 requirement was that the winning manufacturer -- whoever it was -- had to be capable of manufacturing the guns in the U.S. The first 10,000 could be foreign-made, the next 10,000 could be US-built on foreign-made parts, but the rest were to be manufactured and assembled in the U.S. If SIG or HK had won the contract, either of them would have had to build a manufacturing plant in the U.S.

 

At a military open house/airshow I spoke to one NSW fellow who said he carried a Mark 23 in Iraq (the pistol in question was on display, very well used with several layers of tan spray paint on the gun, LAM and silencer). He said he preferred the trigger on the Mark 23 to the 226.

The difference between the width of Mark 23 and 1911 is really shape more than the maximum dimensions, my quick unscientific measurements:

Grip width:
Mark 23 - 1.29"
1911 - 1.32"
USP Tac- 1.22"

The Mark 23 and USP are more rectangular and the 1911 is oval shaped.

The frontstrap to backstrap distance is another story:

Grip front to back
Mark 23 - 2.33"
1911 - 2.12"
USP Tac- 2.23"

 

ToddG... Thanks for the correction. I was misinformed on the manufacturing issue.

 

No worries.

I've never understood the on-going love affair with the 1911 myself.

Ditto. I don't even own one. Rarely does a 1911 get through one of my 2-day classes without problems. Last week I was at Blackwater and they said they've never had someone get through a 5-day class without issues.

 

I know it is sacrilegious to say, but call me a heathen. I have never liked the 1911 .45 very much. Just never appealed too me.
Noted in one of the above posts is how well other guns handle saltwater. Frogmen have stated that after just one lengthy swim operation their 1911’s can become non-functional. Needing a total breakdown to get back to serviceability. With certainty the 1911 was not designed for combat diving. Ocean water being the worst environment for equipment. The Mark 23 was designed to handle the environment.

 

I've never understood the on-going love affair with the 1911 myself. Every serious collection needs one, and yes the triggers are great, but… for real-world use SAO, limited magazine capacity, weight, and more complex field stripping are serious drawbacks in my view.

 

I've never understood the on-going love affair with the 1911 myself.

I think you can find the reason for that in that the baby boomer generation grew up learning that pistol from their fathers having carried them in WWII. I have no love for the 1911, I think they are over emphasized and not worth the money, but I guess back in the 60s, you didn't really see a lot of foreign made pistols in the US.

 

I think the "love affair" is easy to understand. Like a classic 1963 Split Window Vette, this gun is a classic. But even more than that, like the SR-71, the design was well ahead of its time, it has enduring lines, it shoots a venerable American caliber bullet, it's designer was an engineering genious, it served several generations of American GI admirably, its trigger is truly amazing, and it was the inspiration of countless other firearms.

So yea, it's easy for me to understand the love affair, but I totally agree that other 45 platforms have caught up and surpassed the 1911 in terms of capacity, reliability, weight, accuracy, and yes, ergonomics.

 

I have to agree with Benderx4 - the love affair is very understandable. From a purely aesthetic point of view that Baer TRS is a thing of beauty. I want one.

However, in a serious confrontation, I would prefer the MK23.

Cheers PP

 

I think 1911's have more character than any other pistol made. The P7 is up there to once you get those grips off and see the workmanship that went into that gun. I like different guns for different reasons. i am 22 and when i got into shooting at 18, i loved the all black, tactical style guns like glocks springers and such. Since then my taste has changed. I now like a pistol with exposed hammer such as HK Sig and 1911's. I have 4 HK's and love every one of them. i would not carry a 1911 but i love shooting it at the range and in competition. My favorite setup is a 9mm 1911. I own a STI Trojan and it is the easiest gun in my stable to shoot.

 

Mark 23 and the 1911

You can't really compare the Mark 23 and the 1911. . . but then again, you kinda have to. The Mark has 1911 genes in it's heritage and all through it's blood. The Mark 23 is quite a remarkable gun, and it's capabilities are unmatched. But it was the 1911 that started it all. The 1911 was so ahead of it's time that even today it remains a force to be reckoned with. I doubt you'll ever see the Mark 23 duplicated and copied in countries all over the world by almost countless manufacturers like the 1911 has been (and still is even after almost 100 years of production). In fact, I seriously doubt that it will ever be copied by even ONE other manufacturer, and I doubt HK will still be making them 100 years from now (or even 20 years from now). Even to this day, the 1911 trigger is still the standard by which all other triggers are judged in competition all over the world.

The Mark 23 is an AWESOME purpose-built gun, that does what it does like no other. I'd LOVE to own one. But it's place in history wouldn't even equal a comma on the page of the mighty and venerable original Colt 1911.