Is the h&k 45c a good conceal carry weapon ? - Page 6
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Thread: Is the h&k 45c a good conceal carry weapon ?

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prez View Post
    And across the street at the temple of "New modern 9mm loads are effectively the terminal ballistic equivalent of the .45 ACP" religion there's this curious dogma that one 9mm pistol is inferior to another 9mm pistol because it has one round less capacity in the magazine.
    Even if the question of terminal ballistics was identical between the two, there would still be differences in how they behave in other mediums/critters with other loadings. I would say the .45 ACP is much more versatile than 9mm, given that the original 1911 design parameters were based upon the fact that it would be carried by cavalry on horseback… and was expected to be used mainly for taking down horses. I would much prefer .45 with 255 gr. Hard Card for anything bigger than humans vs 147 gr. Hard Cast 9mm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prez View Post
    believe this all got started with that tactical shooting pastime where people run around in ball caps and cargo pants pretending to engage 15+ hostile targets the moment some referee's electronic timer gizmo goes 'beep!'.
    You mean those silly bullet golfers? I think they have a name for us too…. 'times'.

  2. #52
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    WTF happened to this thread. LOL.

    Google caliber debate and believe whatever you want on the matter and shoot whatever you are comfortable with.
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by dms16 View Post
    I see that you came from the era of LE (assuming you're retired or about to retire) that spewed a lot of the poisonous dogma we're having to help this generation unlearn.
    Poisonous dogma??? That's a hoot. I'm sure the half-dozen LE gunfight winners my training program produced while I was in charge of my agency's FTU would disagree with you.

    But by all means, enlighten me. Please.

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  5. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prez View Post
    And across the street at the temple of "New modern 9mm loads are effectively the terminal ballistic equivalent of the .45 ACP" religion ...
    LOL. Well said. ;)

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    All this would be cured by a vp45c in OD green and a black slide. LOL

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    Can't believe I'm going to participate but I am bored. The topic is referred to as dogma because that is exactly what all of this is. Bottom line is all handgun calibers SUCK. Depending on what statistic you want to believe somewhere between 80% and up of people shot with a handgun survive. Now I'm sure a lot of what isn't recorded goes into this statistic such as, ammunition selection, shot placement, immediate medical treatment, physiological status etc.

    Then the FBI Standard. Is it applicable. I think all data has some applicability but non of it is absolute as no one seems to agree. There is an article by Massad Ayoob criticizing FBI standards that is quit compelling. As are a lot of articles with views lying on opposite ends of each argument.

    I've have watched surgeons summarize their experience with gunshot wounds in the ER that are quit informative. One of which, while he supports the data of ineffectiveness of handgun cartridges actually give the edge to ball ammunition over modern hollow points due to the lack of penetration and the higher likelihood of ball ammunition had of making contact/trauma by traveling further through the body. He also gave statistics through different mediums such as the epidermis, organs and muscle tissue.

    Then publications that romanticize caliber or caliber through platform. I remember reading the "Book of 45's". It is a very good book with exceptional stories, in exceptional circumstances, by exceptional people. But as the adage goes don't use the exception to prove the rule.

    Some people base caliber validity and selection off of their personal experience, or that of someone they've known personally or unfortunately the internet. "So and So got into a gunfight and used X caliber and it worked or it didn't". One story says yay and the other says Nay. Which applicable. I say both. So many variables besides caliber. Chance be one of the most important variables. A bullets path on its way through the body, regardless of caliber, bullet design etc is on a chance encounter with something that is vital to sustain human physiological function. If by chance something that is vital "IS" struck, chances are that they will not be immediately incapacitated. It takes time for the body to bleed out regardless of shot placement. The only probability of instant threat incapacitate is CNS. Even with massive Circulatory System Tamra a threat is still capable of causing serious bodily injury or death. Look at the Miami Shootout that started the new FBI standard in the first place. How many people have shot a White Tail Deer and witnessed instant incapacitation? It happens. But why does it usually happen? Because that person missed what they were aiming at usually. Usually hitting the spine. If you are using a shotgun that is roughly a 70 caliber, 437 grain bullet! And still fails to instantly incapacitate. Why? Because just like any machine, the physiological make up of that creature, certain things have to fail before it stops completely.

    Institutional Dogma and Ego. This is usually the worst. I am both proud and ashamed to be a Cog in this Wheel. The perception that someone in the Military, Law Enforcement or insert X,Y or Z Accreditation, is proficient is an absolute fallacy. Most people in Law Enforcement or Military receive the absolute bare minimum, horribly inadequate training and annual testing standards. And this deals mostly with the standard of marksmanship. There is no standard for what constitutes applicable principles and skill as it applies to gun-fighting. I would summarize that a higher percentage than I am comfortable with, are holding such a title and are a liabilities to themselves, the public and fellow "professionals". Proficiency in anything usually comes from an applicable, consistent approach an individual puts in on their own time, and all skills are perishable. Skills that are displayed under stress need even more training. Standards for the title of "Instructor", aren't much better in most cases. In some cases the Marksmanship test are more strict. I myself am in Instructor and have been for some time. I realize that the basics for most are best and I don't pretend that I invented the wheel and realize I am a Cog. However, again, whether tactics or principles are applicable to an individual or a whole, it still takes a consistent applicable approach by the individual. Yes training can influence the outcome of a deadly force engagement, thus impacting statistics that are attributed to caliber validity.

    In the end, get over your EGO, Dogma, your caliber and your platform. Everything is applicable. Nothing is absolute. Carry what you are comfortable with. If you have a mental stigma towards caliber or platform,..... Then carry it, because that is applicable to.
    Last edited by sabre675; 05-02-2016 at 06:34 PM.

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    I would also like to add that in 2010 I was privileged to view a ballistic demonstration put on by ATK. ATK is a large distributor of ammunition to Law Enforcement. They carry/distribute an array of ammunition. They demonstrated the FBI test with that array of ammunition through various mediums. If you subscribe to the FBI Test as the end all be all,.... The results that favored the FBI standard were not Championed by Caliber or Brand. Across the board through all mediums, the heaviest bullet weight, in each caliber, usually in bonded ammunition, reigned supreme. Again this is as it applies to the FBI Standard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prez View Post
    And across the street at the temple of "New modern 9mm loads are effectively the terminal ballistic equivalent of the .45 ACP" religion there's this curious dogma that one 9mm pistol is inferior to another 9mm pistol because it has one round less capacity in the magazine.
    "I wish I'd brought less ammo." -said no one who got involved in a gunfight, ever.

    'Nuff said.

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    As I've said everything is applicable. However the stance ammunition capacity being the sole purpose of carry caliber or weapon selection is immature. Youthisms trying to point towards validity are even more so. While I would never object to more ammunition in gunfight, it still comes back to what the end users preference is, comfort level and perceived level of preparedness. These debates are a slippery slope as chances of needing a firearm in a Judicious Deadly Force encounter are less then 1%. So why even carry a gun right? I am personally comfortable in the 8-10 round weapons capacity range. I have carried J-frames due to garment selection and not been so comfortable. That range is not caliber specific. I would be equally comfortable with 9mm or 45 ACP. Again personal preference based on all elements perceived. Even though I am quite comfortable with that capacity I still carry a spare magazine, merely because I've found a method to do so comfortably as it applies to Concealed Carry and to cover Murphy. Personal preference on probability in the unlikely. At what point do we stop, and where is the validated absolute found in the improbable?

    Quote Originally Posted by S404 View Post
    "I wish I'd brought less ammo." -said no one who got involved in a gunfight, ever.

    'Nuff said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sabre675 View Post
    As I've said everything is applicable. However the stance ammunition capacity being the sole purpose of carry caliber or weapon selection is immature. Youthisms trying to point towards validity are even more so. While I would never object to more ammunition in gunfight, it still comes back to what the end users preference is, comfort level and perceived level of preparedness. These debates are a slippery slope as chances of needing a firearm in a Judicious Deadly Force encounter are less then 1%. So why even carry a gun right? I am personally comfortable in the 8-10 round weapons capacity range. I have carried J-frames due to garment selection and not been so comfortable. That range is not caliber specific. I would be equally comfortable with 9mm or 45 ACP. Again personal preference based on all elements perceived. Even though I am quite comfortable with that capacity I still carry a spare magazine, merely because I've found a method to do so comfortably as it applies to Concealed Carry and to cover Murphy. Personal preference on probability in the unlikely. At what point do we stop, and where is the validated absolute found in the improbable?
    It's a slippery slope only insofar as there are no standards for ballistics and weapon size. The FBI standards may be artificial, but they were developed through quite a bit of research. These standards disqualify ultra high capacity calibers like .22 WMR and .32 ACP, but they rank 9mm as not that different from .40 and .45. As for weapon size, since we are talking about a CCW, obviously something like a Glock 9mm with a stick magazine wouldn't be considered the equivalent to something like a USPc 9mm with flush-fitting magazine.

    Where does your magic number of 8-10 rounds being sufficient come from? If there research backing this, or is it just a feeling?

    In my opinion, if there are two guns of approximately the same dimensions and weight, both in a caliber able to pass the FBI's ballistics tests, and one gun holds more ammo than the other, then my choice will be in favor of the one with the greater capacity.
    Last edited by S404; 05-02-2016 at 07:28 PM.

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