Is the h&k 45c a good conceal carry weapon ? - Page 7
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Thread: Is the h&k 45c a good conceal carry weapon ?

  1. #61
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    That was my point exactly. Where did I state that my choice was based off of a non existent ether or validity? I stated my reason were personal preference as I perceive them as a whole. I pointed out painstakingly above, caliber and all other minuscule factors ARE applicable. All be it minutely. You have clearly made your choice. Hopefully your decision was an educated one based on your perception of the facts perceived as a whole. Most likely, based on probability your choice will serve you well. Others should do so as well.
    Last edited by sabre675; 05-02-2016 at 07:32 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabre675 View Post
    That was my point exactly. Where did I state that my choice was based off of a non existent ether or validity? I stated my reason were personal preference as I perceive them as a whole. I pointed out painstakingly above, caliber and all other minuscule factors ARE applicable. All be it minutely. You have clearly made your choice. Hopefully your decision was an educated one based on your perception of the facts perceived as a whole. Most likely, based on probability your choice will serve you well. Others should do so as well.
    Well, I figured that the point of your thesis was to reduce all service calibers to an equivalent in ballistic effectiveness. All handgun calibers suck, therefore it doesn't matter which caliber you choose. Shot placement trumps all else. Did I misinterpret your main point? Because the logical extension of that, to me, is that firstly, your own shooting skills are always the most important thing that can be brought to a gunfight, and secondly is that, if all else is indeed equal (caliber effectiveness, size, weight, shootability of the gun, etc.), then the gun that can fit the most ammo inside of it is the logical choice. I would add that shootability of the gun is rarely equal across calibers, though, with recoil having a direct impact on speed of follow up shots, but shooting skills can compensate to a huge degree in this regard.

    The conversation doesn't have to be purely one of personal preference. Obviously no one here is carrying a baton instead of a handgun and asserting that they are as well protected. There are empirical reasons to choose one gun over another, and your previous posts even mentioned some of them.
    Last edited by S404; 05-02-2016 at 08:12 PM.

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    I sumize that the pistol you are most competent and comfortable with is the most important. Regardless of capacity. Having understood capacity is applicable, but not an absolute in determining platform.

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  5. #64
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    This is the math I used on this exact topic;

    https://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-handgu...ml#post1742431

    I should mention I now carry my P2000SK with a P30 mag with the XGrip.

    I also should mention a fact stated by the FBI that very often, the psychological factor experienced by those who are shot is important, "Euro-pellet" or not, and can further change the game in the shooter's favor.
    Last edited by Brahma; 05-02-2016 at 10:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sabre675 View Post
    Can't believe I'm going to participate but I am bored. The topic is referred to as dogma because that is exactly what all of this is. Bottom line is all handgun calibers SUCK. Depending on what statistic you want to believe somewhere between 80% and up of people shot with a handgun survive. Now I'm sure a lot of what isn't recorded goes into this statistic such as, ammunition selection, shot placement, immediate medical treatment, physiological status etc.

    Then the FBI Standard. Is it applicable. I think all data has some applicability but non of it is absolute as no one seems to agree. There is an article by Massad Ayoob criticizing FBI standards that is quit compelling. As are a lot of articles with views lying on opposite ends of each argument.

    I've have watched surgeons summarize their experience with gunshot wounds in the ER that are quit informative. One of which, while he supports the data of ineffectiveness of handgun cartridges actually give the edge to ball ammunition over modern hollow points due to the lack of penetration and the higher likelihood of ball ammunition had of making contact/trauma by traveling further through the body. He also gave statistics through different mediums such as the epidermis, organs and muscle tissue.

    Then publications that romanticize caliber or caliber through platform. I remember reading the "Book of 45's". It is a very good book with exceptional stories, in exceptional circumstances, by exceptional people. But as the adage goes don't use the exception to prove the rule.

    Some people base caliber validity and selection off of their personal experience, or that of someone they've known personally or unfortunately the internet. "So and So got into a gunfight and used X caliber and it worked or it didn't". One story says yay and the other says Nay. Which applicable. I say both. So many variables besides caliber. Chance be one of the most important variables. A bullets path on its way through the body, regardless of caliber, bullet design etc is on a chance encounter with something that is vital to sustain human physiological function. If by chance something that is vital "IS" struck, chances are that they will not be immediately incapacitated. It takes time for the body to bleed out regardless of shot placement. The only probability of instant threat incapacitate is CNS. Even with massive Circulatory System Tamra a threat is still capable of causing serious bodily injury or death. Look at the Miami Shootout that started the new FBI standard in the first place. How many people have shot a White Tail Deer and witnessed instant incapacitation? It happens. But why does it usually happen? Because that person missed what they were aiming at usually. Usually hitting the spine. If you are using a shotgun that is roughly a 70 caliber, 437 grain bullet! And still fails to instantly incapacitate. Why? Because just like any machine, the physiological make up of that creature, certain things have to fail before it stops completely.

    Institutional Dogma and Ego. This is usually the worst. I am both proud and ashamed to be a Cog in this Wheel. The perception that someone in the Military, Law Enforcement or insert X,Y or Z Accreditation, is proficient is an absolute fallacy. Most people in Law Enforcement or Military receive the absolute bare minimum, horribly inadequate training and annual testing standards. And this deals mostly with the standard of marksmanship. There is no standard for what constitutes applicable principles and skill as it applies to gun-fighting. I would summarize that a higher percentage than I am comfortable with, are holding such a title and are a liabilities to themselves, the public and fellow "professionals". Proficiency in anything usually comes from an applicable, consistent approach an individual puts in on their own time, and all skills are perishable. Skills that are displayed under stress need even more training. Standards for the title of "Instructor", aren't much better in most cases. In some cases the Marksmanship test are more strict. I myself am in Instructor and have been for some time. I realize that the basics for most are best and I don't pretend that I invented the wheel and realize I am a Cog. However, again, whether tactics or principles are applicable to an individual or a whole, it still takes a consistent applicable approach by the individual. Yes training can influence the outcome of a deadly force engagement, thus impacting statistics that are attributed to caliber validity.

    In the end, get over your EGO, Dogma, your caliber and your platform. Everything is applicable. Nothing is absolute. Carry what you are comfortable with. If you have a mental stigma towards caliber or platform,..... Then carry it, because that is applicable to.
    Very well said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brahma View Post
    This is the math I used on this exact topic;

    https://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-handgu...ml#post1742431
    Is there an explanation for that formula somewhere that I'm not seeing?

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    It's simple. Total round count, minus a statistical average of 30% misses under stress and movement, rounded up or down the the nearest number, divided by two assailants.

    The original post was a discussion right after the attacks in Paris, with discussions held about whether concealed carry, and specifically which HK handgun, would give someone the best chance.

    Remember, this scenario wasn't a gas station or convenience store robbery, it was by multiple assailants with overwhelming firepower, and the original OP wanted a gun with a single stack. I used the then current news to demonstrate I wouldn't own or carry a single-stack gun in today's world.

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    Wow, some good points.

    However, I find it so odd that some guys will defend the 45C over a smaller caliber and higher capacity, but when some newb comes on and asks about a USP vs HK45, one of the big factors everyone mentions the +2 capacity of the USP. I guess capacity is only a factor when it comes to validating personal preferences...

    Make a thoughtful choice, drive on, adjust as necessary

  10. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnerjacky View Post
    I don't think so. HK 45c is considered too big for concealed carry. P30 would be better choice but I don't recommend anyone, specially thin and short people, to try to conceal carry 45C when there are many other options in HK brand.
    According to who? Definitely not me! the HK45C is my CCW.

    Quote Originally Posted by sabre675 View Post
    WTF happened to this thread. LOL.

    Google caliber debate and believe whatever you want on the matter and shoot whatever you are comfortable with.
    Shoot and carry whatever you are comfortable with and forget what others have to say about it.....

    Quote Originally Posted by sabre675 View Post
    Carry what you are comfortable with. If you have a mental stigma towards caliber or platform,..... Then carry it, because that is applicable to.
    EXACTLY!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by S404 View Post
    Where does your magic number of 8-10 rounds being sufficient come from? If there research backing this, or is it just a feeling?
    He stated that he "personally" was comfortable with the 8-10 rounds. No research needed for that!
    Last edited by Militant; 05-03-2016 at 04:39 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Militant View Post
    He stated that he "personally" was comfortable with the 8-10 rounds. No research needed for that!
    The man is certainly entitled to his opinion and I'm not going to try to belittle that, but it was a legitimate question. It is possible to use research to inform your decisions with weapon choice, and I was asking him if he had happened on some study referencing statistics about number of shots fired in defensive gun uses. This kind of informed decision-making is what the FBI did when they developed their ballistics gelatin testing standards and decided on what qualified a projectile to "pass" or "fail" their tests.

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