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HK P7 M8 & M13 FACTORY Nickel Finish Outside of KC Dates

16K views 29 replies 10 participants last post by  Clc3251 
#1 · (Edited)
I have been out the HK circuit for a while. I was working on a P7 book some 6 years ago and put it on hold. I have seen several posts lately stating M8 and M13 guns were mfg from the factory in Nickel with KC date codes only. Where is this coming from? It is incorrect. Before posting more info, I thought I would reach out and see if anyone knows the source. Regards!

**UPDATE** 05/09/2016
Thanks for those that chimed in. I didn't really see any real data supporting P7 M variants in Nickel being KC Date codes only. I have done extensive research over the last 6 years which includes meeting and talking with HK engineers from Germany and the US. I got side tracked on the P7 book when I began writing for Recoil, you may have seen my work if you read the VP9 article in print. It has also been said that if the take down button is Nickel, it is a fake. That is true for KC made guns, however I have found that to be an untrue statement for other years. I know there is a lot of misinformation on the internet and I felt after seeing so many references to HK only producing KC coded nickel guns that I would present this information. Please let me know if you have any questions.

HK tested the waters in the 80s with releasing M8 variants in nickel. These models did not look very satin and had a nickel take down. Below is an example of a factory nickel M8 pre-90s.



Another example on the cover of Handguns magazine dated October 1990, shows a Chantilly M13 variant with an IE date code in factory nickel. All the guns for this article were supplied by HK.




bBlow is a factory test target from a 1990 KA M13. Note the blue stamp marked "CHROME"



Lastly, here is a M10 variant with a KB date code from the HK factory book, noting it is available in blue and chrome.

 

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#13 · (Edited)
Interesting that the Nickel one in the magazine photo has a plated take down button, every factory nickel I have seen has a blue/black take down button. The gun broker photo is not factory nickel the color is way off, plus the take down button is plated. You don't think HK could have had one plated for a Photo op. No Photoshop back then.
 
#16 ·
First, apologies for referring to the nickel as "stainless" in my prevous posts (corrected), but you did mention "nickel" in your first post!!! :biggrin:
There are definitely "chrome"-finished P7's not in the KC codes--- I was speaking of KC only in the nickel. :wink:

Tony
 
#17 ·
Well, the gun in the first photo definitely does not look factory nickel. It's certainly possible that HK experimented with other finishes and supplied some for photo shoots and whatnot and maybe they trickled out into the used market at some point. "Chrome" isn't nickel per se. Could there be metallic silver colored P7s that HK made that way? Sure. But I've never heard of any production guns that were for sale with date codes other than KC in a lot of searching and reading.

Again, 'the guy' is around here somewhere, I hope he sheds light on the query.
 
#18 ·
European P7s were never offered in Nickel. HK does not make guns just for magazine articles and these were not one offs. I believe M8s and 13s were brought in to the US and were offered in Nickel prior to KC based on my research.

If anyone has factual data to say otherwise, then by all means, please share.



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#22 ·
Reviving a dead thread to pick a fight. There has been some recent controversy over nickel P7s prior to the run in 1992. Several people insist that none exist other than refinished guns. They also insist that if the grip screws and take down button are nickel then it is without a doubt a refinished gun and did not come from HK with a nickel finish. Well then explain this page from HK’s own advertising from 1993. I have the original HK Sentinal and scanned it myself. No Photoshop here. HK used the same pistols in several issues of the Sentinal and they are IE date coded Chantilly guns despite HK being located in Sterling by then. The Sentinal was factory HK advertizing given to dealers to promote their products. Flame away haters!
Trigger Air gun Gun barrel Gun accessory Revolver
 
#25 ·
The Sentinel was not a magazine. It was factory H and K advertising. I get what you’re saying with the reversed round in the magazine but that doesn’t change the fact that H an K used a factory nickel gun in their advertising that was not from the 1992 to run. There is also a factory Nickel P7M7 prototype in 45 ACP. Clearly H and K was applying that finish prior to 1992. A big part of the problem is that apparently the blued finish was not very durable at all on the P7 and a popular refinishing option was in some kind of silver finish whether it was chrome or nickel. This makes identifying factory nickel guns outside of the 1992 run very difficult as H and K did not keep records as to what finish was shipped on the guns. H and K USA said that their records are spotty from the 80s. I tried emailing H&K in Germany and did not get a response.
 
#26 ·
@Clc3251 - that nickel M13 in the Sentinel is the same one as in the Handguns magazine. It also appears in a few other ads from that era. I don't think anyone is disagreeing that HK had a nickeled M13 (and I think there was an M8 too). I think the question is whether these were production guns. HK probably planned to offer this option but never got around to it till the 1992 M8 production. There are plenty of other examples of HK guns that HK made, individually or in a batch of ~5-10, that never went to market. There are also examples of small custom runs made for certain high end customers (like King Hussein of Jordan as one example).

Is it possible that the gun in that picture above, and the one 2 serial numbers away from it, that sold on GB last week are actual HK nickel guns? Yea, I don't doubt that. Are a few of them out there circulating in the world? Looks like it. That's not hard to establish. Were they production guns? Unlikely, given the evidence we have seen of a serial number range spanning 3 guns.

That said, if I had the money to afford one of these "ultra rare" one-off HK guns (any of them, not just a pre-92 nickel P7), I would do my due diligence to establish provenance. Same as if I was buying a AE gray frame USP with stainless slide, or USP with orange frame.

As Mr. Schatz told me when we were discussing HK production 40 round MP5 mags - "with HK, anything is possible"
 
#27 ·
I see your point but I think we are talking about two different things. I never said that they were production guns offered in wide circulation, just that they were offered with a factory nickel finish. What number constitutes a production gun? 1, 100, 1000? If the factory only released one it is still a factory produced gun. If there was a big run of these, there would surely be numerous examples and we would not be debating it. I see both sides of the argument, and I wouldn't buy a gun for it's story unless it was accompanied by a factory letter or documentation so it's buyer beware on these guns and only buy if you are happy with the gun as is. I have several P7s including a factory nickel M8 from the 1992 run and it is a beautiful gun. I have always thought the P7 looked best in nickel and seriously considered refinishing one of my other P7s before picking up the factory nickel model from a friend in 2006 who I was with when he purchased it new from an authorized HK dealer in about 1993. That being said, there is no documentation that this finish is factory. There is nothing on the box, manual or test target that indicates the finish. When he purchased it it was just a good looking P7M8 and no thought was given to proving the factory provenance 30 years later by him or HK. I actually revived this thread hoping to spark someone's memory who could provide insight on these guns. Thank you for the response and please reach out to any old timers that you know that may have dealt in HK in the 1980's and have more information. I just think it is an interesting story.
 
#29 ·
What number constitutes a production gun? 1, 100, 1000? If the factory only released one it is still a factory produced gun.
Factory produced is not the same as factory production. You know this. The most limited production runs I am aware of from HK are the AE color framed USPs where we have well established numbers of 500 per run. Problem is there's no real definition on what "production run" means. Are the 160 SFP-9Ms imported by AU a production run? They were part of a larger contract for the German Navy, so probably, but you get my point, there's not a clear definition for us to hang our hat on.


I have always thought the P7 looked best in nickel and seriously considered refinishing one of my other P7s
I agree

That being said, there is no documentation that this finish is factory. There is nothing on the box, manual or test target that indicates the finish.
Because then this would be too easy and we'd have to go back to talking about VP9s...

Thank you for the response and please reach out to any old timers that you know that may have dealt in HK in the 1980's and have more information. I just think it is an interesting story.
I think most of the old timers frequent this forum. A very interesting story indeed! I'm glad you resurrected this.

Looking at AGG's serial number data I do see the following factory guns:
IE (84) Chantilly P7M8 (SN 85773) with chromed slide & frame (factory).
IE (84) Chantilly P7M8 (SN 86368) with "hard-chromed" slide & frame (factory).
IE (84) Chantilly P7M8 (SN87181) with chromed slide & frame (factory).
IE (84) Chantilly P7M8 (SN 87526) with "hard-chromed" slide & frame (factory).
IF (85) Chantilly P7M8 (SN 91860) with "satin chrome" slide & frame (factory).

I'll look at the M13 data later, there's a lot there...

Has anyone attempted to contact HK direct on serial numbers, etc?
HK is really fickle about giving out production numbers. I've been working to get the production numbers from the 2019-2020 release of some of the color frame USPs HK released for the California market and thus far they have not been forthcoming with this.
 
#28 ·
The picture is from a factory HK catalog, my point being is that mistakes, errors, etc. happen at the factory HK level also so a magazine doesn't prove anything to me especially at the thousands of dollars of difference levels. Has anyone attempted to contact HK direct on serial numbers, etc? I am sure this information is out there somewhere and they should have the serial number runs that correspond with the nickel finishes. Quite frankly one of the most annoying things that really makes the issue even more difficult to resolve is the number of dealers that either due to lack of knowledge or flat out deception sell after market nickeled guns or hard chromed guns as factory. If you go on gunbroker now you will find six "nickel" guns and a host of descriptions but it appears only one is factory nickel and only one dealer acknowledged the finish is after market.
 
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