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  1. #31
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    Got some of my most gratifying range time at the 100 yrd rifle range, sitting at the table, arms stretched out resting on the table, VP9 in both hands, pinging a 9" steel disk. The VP9 has always been easy to shoot accurately.
    Last edited by cartobum; 10-23-2019 at 12:47 PM.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squeeze View Post
    Greetings. New to this forum but I have looked at it a lot of times. Perhaps someone can shine a bit of light on a subject that has me questioning. I look on a lot of shooting forums and seem to run across a lot of shooters claiming to get sub-5" groups with their out of the box pistols. Some of these are supposedly at 25 yards. I have been shooting NRA bullseye for maybe 20 years. Unfortunately my targets would not reveal that fact. One thing I have seen is some of the very best pistol shooters, because bullseye (unlike other disciplines) is purely accuracy in a given time span and all one-handed. That is ten shots in ten minutes at 50 yards, five shots in 20 seconds at 25 yards and five shots in ten seconds at 25 yards. The "10" scoring ring is 3.36" diameter regardless of the distance and the shot can be outside the ring but still touching the ring to score ten points. That means the group could be 3.812" center to center and still be ten 10s. Shooters in the High Master class can very often shoot 100 point targets at 25 yards and occasionally do at 50 yards. They consistently shoot between 90 and 100 points at 50 yards. High master bullseye shooters are way above and beyond most of us in terms of mechanical skill and mental concentration and are all shooting accurized pistols that may be in the $3,000 - $5,000 range. All this leads me to question posts that someone is shooting 5" or 6" groups at 25 yards, much less at 50 yards, with an out of the box gun. Certainly it is possible that some percent of factory pistols come through that are more accurate than most but then by pure luck that gun has to fall into the hands of a much better than average shooter. In my opinion the vast majority of people shooting out of the box pistols, especially with unmodified triggers, would be hard pressed to get ten consecutive shots on a 2'x2' target at 25 yards. I am not saying that is true of the participants of this forum as there may be a much higher percent who practice a lot and have developed their skills. I am saying that if one includes every American who owns a pistol, I doubt that even 50% could put 3 or 4 of ten shots in the 2' x 2' at 25 yards. How about some feedback on what size groups you are normally able to shoot beyond 15 yards.
    If a pistol will shoot sub 2 inch groups from a rest at 25 yards isn't the pistol then capable of it? I think every HK pistol will do this. So it really becomes a question of the shooter and how a particular pistol shoots in the hand as opposed to a bench rest. I think that's where a more specifically designed pistol becomes important as it may be better balanced for one handed shooting, better trigger, etc. But I would bet that at 25, maybe even 50 yards from a ransom rest the difference between a 5k pistol and a stock Hk would be surprisingly small.
    WolfieRules likes this.

  3. #33
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    One thing I have noticed in Bullseye shooting is there is no power requirement other than reaching the target and breaking through the paper. Therefore a bullseye shooter has leeway to develop the best possible load for accuracy with his/her particular pistol. Sometimes a few grains of powder difference can tighten or loosen the group a good amount. Springs are then assigned to suit that load. An out of the box gun is generally assumed to be set up for factory loads in a set pressure/power range which may not lend itself to optimal accuracy. It seems pointless to take great comfort in a tight group at 7 yards, which is more in the range of bayonets and baseball bats. This much I do know, using any out of the box gun I have shot, I have never come close to what my out of the box Kimber 1911 (albeit with a trigger job) shoots and I have loaded lighter (target rounds) for the USP40. Perhaps it is all just trigger, as the 1911 is a good trigger to optimize. Perhaps it is just my disappointment in not being able to coax better groups out of the USP. I bought a GrandPower P45 which for me seems to shoot better than my USP. That may also be a matter of the 45ACP being a more accurate round (subsonic) than the 40 SW. Does anybody have photos of either 25 or 50 yard targets from a ransom rested USP?

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  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squeeze View Post
    An out of the box gun is generally assumed to be set up for factory loads in a set pressure/power range which may not lend itself to optimal accuracy. It seems pointless to take great comfort in a tight group at 7 yards, which is more in the range of bayonets and baseball bats. This much I do know, using any out of the box gun I have shot, I have never come close to what my out of the box Kimber 1911 (albeit with a trigger job) shoots...
    Unless I’m mistaken, it seems you deem an OoB gun and bullseye shooting follow the same metrics. As you’ve alluded, an OoB is configured to run std press for the round given. I agree and further that being a handgun, its primary market/focus is SD. With always-go-bang HK, reliability is first given the power factor and range it is most likely to operate in — and lose some/reasonable accuracy at extended distances.

    I can understand the performance from your Kimber, my WC has a 1”@25yds bench guaranty = it has a 1911 trigger mechanism to begin with. But the WC test target is at 15yds, which is about the max distance for a legal shoot. 7yds is the median distance in a 7-11 or a home, so tight groups are essential.
    Last edited by GasGuzz; 10-23-2019 at 10:14 PM.

  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by GasGuzz View Post
    Unless I’m mistaken, it seems you deem an OoB gun and bullseye shooting follow the same metrics. As you’ve alluded, an OoB is configured to run std press for the round given. I agree and further that being a handgun, its primary market/focus is SD. With always-go-bang HK, reliability is first given the power factor and range it is most likely to operate in — and lose some/reasonable accuracy at extended distances.

    I can understand the performance from your Kimber, my WC has a 1”@25yds bench guaranty = it has a 1911 trigger mechanism to begin with. But the WC test target is at 15yds, which is about the max distance for a legal shoot. 7yds is the median distance in a 7-11 or a home, so tight groups are essential.
    I understand that the range a pistol is going to be used at for self defense is close. Shooting a bad guy at 50 yards is more apt to get the shooter in trouble than the bad guy. That said, the 7 yard backer (rubber conveyor belt) at our plinking range does not have a neat 6" hole in the center. It has holes from edge to edge in all directions. That may be acceptable for a tiny palm sized pistol but should certainly not be the case with a longer barreled pistol. I would hope that any medium to full sized pistol can make a nice grouping at 7 yards if the shooter does his part correctly. However, as a friend likes to say "the problem is generally a bad connection between the ground and the trigger." A tight group photo at 7 yards says little about the gun but points toward shooter skill just as a terrible grouping does. What I like about a target shot from a ransom rest or any stable platform is that it forces us to look to ourselves for the real problem. If one ransom rests his gun and gets a 2" group then when he starts shooting groups that are close to 2" he needs to consider a better shooting gun if he wants to do better. Up until then, the gun is not the problem. For that matter, if one approaches the grouping he shoots off of sand bags, he may want to consider a better shooting gun. As GasGuzz has said " always-go-bang" is perhaps a more important concern if one is expecting to use the pistol strictly for self defense and accuracy of that gun should be of no concern beyond maybe 15 yards. Good at 15 yards is generally better at 7 yards. BUT, if "always go bang" is your primary concern, I'd be hesitant to be changing springs and messing with trigger components. I am sure that HK and most manufacturers sacrifice a bit of performance to insure a greater level of safety. This can be assumed when they do have performance enhancing components available for competitive guns. One thing I have heard year after year by very good bullseye shooters is the importance of trigger control. Shooting is a digital sport. If one can squeeze smooth and steady enough to make the shot go off without changing the sight alignment in the process, he will invariably have a much more accurate shot. A red dot scope makes it easier to see the point of aim changing when the shot is breaking. Whatever direction the dot is moving as the shot breaks is the direction the round will go. One thing to keep in mind with open/iron sights is when you are sighted correctly there should be an equal width of daylight on both sides of the front sight when viewed through the back sight. If the front site moves to the left or right one can calculate the angle of error using how far off center the front sight is and the sight radius. Example: with a 7" sight radius, if the front sight were to move .009" (width of three human hairs) to either the left or right of dead center it would create a .07367 degree angle of error. If one extends that to 25 yards it becomes 1.1572". If the sight always moves in the same direction it adds 1.1572" to whatever is the best group your gun will shoot. If you are off to the right with some shots and to the left with other shots, the added error doubles. So a pistol capable of 6" groups at 25 yards (when trigger control is perfect) may shoot an 8.314" group on just a minor misalignment of the sights. BUT the great majority of pistol shooters do not have perfect trigger control, especially when a lot of pistols have terrible triggers. That bad trigger or shooting double action tends to generate a larger last moment misalignment and your group can easily open up to 12 or more inches. A really nice trigger can help a lot but neither HK or any other manufacturer can engineer human error out of the formula.

  7. #36
    Gets the Shakes if No HK Contact in 24 Hour Period

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    My eyes, my eyes!
    None of my biz but I'll apologize for being blunt – I didn’t read your post.
    Squeeze is an understatement.
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  8. #37
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    Not meant for everybody. Doesn't break my heart if you ignore it. I don't think I said anything untrue, albeit a bit wordy.

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