P30 accidental decocker discharge - Page 22
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Thread: P30 accidental decocker discharge

  1. #211
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    Not a direct response to anyone, but no one is shooting the messenger (as everyone agrees to wait for HK). Of course it can be explained, it’s a mechanical malfunction or not. To date however, it has not been unequivocally eliminated that a trigger pull was not involved.
    The standard remains, User/Manufacturer is innocent until proven guilty. Staying with HK AD’s, unless I missed it I don’t see any of those HK links proving where trigger ND was determined to be out of the question – outside of… I read this/that, the guy next to me, I heard from a buddy’s friend, so on.

    Handy… Thank you for your posting/contribution on the mechanicals through the thread (of which I don’t disagree). But then again, I think even you would attest – the paper data can only reveal so much.

    As for why decock before clearing, a moot point simply because that action/option is available.

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by S404 View Post
    Did you want to share any of those ways with us? Or just withhold the information for no reason?
    I beg your pardon? Do you require me to repeat posts 19, 82, 90 and 92 that I've already contributed to the thread because you failed to even bother reading them?
    Last edited by Handy; 07-24-2017 at 04:45 PM.

  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Handy View Post
    I beg your pardon? Do you require me to repeat posts 19, 82, 90 and 92 that I've already contributed to the thread because you failed to even bother reading them?
    Handy, You've been an excellent source of information in this thread, and when I say I think it's likely it was user error, I don't want you to take that as an attack on you or your information.

    Try to think about it this way.

    You're teaching a 2 day beginner handgun class one weekend, approx. round count of 500. After having some classroom time and going through about half that ammo on the first day, early the next day one of the new shooters on the line puts a round into the dirt while decocking before going back into the holster. What's the most likely issue here? It absolutely could be the gun, but in all likelihood it was a finger on the trigger that caused the problem.

    I believe that you have shown that a decocker failure is possible. However, short of the OP somehow convincing me he's shot as much as Hackathorn, I'm going to continue believing that he had his finger on the trigger and while putting force on the decocker button also exerted enough force or the trigger to make it go bang. I have met more than one new shooter who didn't think their finger was on the trigger. In the aftermath of the AD (caused by negligence or not, still an accident) I'll even believe the OP THINKS his finger wasn't on the trigger. I'm going to go with the odds and say it was.

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  5. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by HRoark View Post
    Handy, You've been an excellent source of information in this thread, and when I say I think it's likely it was user error, I don't want you to take that as an attack on you or your information.

    Try to think about it this way.

    You're teaching a 2 day beginner handgun class one weekend, approx. round count of 500. After having some classroom time and going through about half that ammo on the first day, early the next day one of the new shooters on the line puts a round into the dirt while decocking before going back into the holster. What's the most likely issue here? It absolutely could be the gun, but in all likelihood it was a finger on the trigger that caused the problem.

    I believe that you have shown that a decocker failure is possible. However, short of the OP somehow convincing me he's shot as much as Hackathorn, I'm going to continue believing that he had his finger on the trigger and while putting force on the decocker button also exerted enough force or the trigger to make it go bang. I have met more than one new shooter who didn't think their finger was on the trigger. In the aftermath of the AD (caused by negligence or not, still an accident) I'll even believe the OP THINKS his finger wasn't on the trigger. I'm going to go with the odds and say it was.
    I don't take anything "personally" except for the implication that I haven't been explicit in all my posts.


    As far as the likelihood of the OP having an ND - yes, it is possible. But unlike the typical random ND or holstering ND, the OP was specifically taking a very different action that definitely drops the hammer when the gun fired.

    And if this was a Beretta, I would be more inclined to believe that the OP simply screwed up. But the HK lockwork, unlike Beretta's, does offer several more decocking AD possibilities. Additionally, this isn't the first ever report of such an AD - one was reported by a police officer on this forum who was willing to provide armorer information.


    I don't think we can possibly come to a definitive conclusion to why the OP's gun fired, but that is exactly what people are doing when they insist that it has to be an ND.


    This is the third iteration of the HK decocking system, and it still is not perfect. Users would be much better served by wariness or healthy skepticism than outright dismissal of the OP's claim.

    Personally, I would not use the HK decocker in an apartment with one hand after looking into the mechanism. Everyone else can make their own judgments, but they should make them understanding that the OP's story is certainly possible because a range of minor failures can cause the hammer catch and FPB to not do their jobs.

  6. #215
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    Handy .... since you seem to have a very good understanding of how the hammer mechanism works I have a question for you. Since you've outlined a few ways for the gun to cause the OP's discharge due to parts failure ... If the hammer was somehow released from the half cock position and managed to strike the firing pin, would it have enough force to ignite the primer?


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    Say it goes back to HK again or a HK armorer and they fail to replicate the malfunction, then what? Its clear the OP has zero confidence in his P30, only solution is to replace it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zart312 View Post
    Handy .... since you seem to have a very good understanding of how the hammer mechanism works I have a question for you. Since you've outlined a few ways for the gun to cause the OP's discharge due to parts failure ... If the hammer was somehow released from the half cock position and managed to strike the firing pin, would it have enough force to ignite the primer?


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    Just to be clear, what you are asking about isn't related to what we are talking about in the case of the OP.

    Specifically to the USP and generally to all pistols, "half cock" is supposed to be an amount of distance and mainspring pressure that is too small to ignite the primer. One of the reasons for half cock is that it prevents the gun from accidentally firing if you slip while manually cocking the hammer. If you slip before half cock, there isn't enough oomph to fire, if you get to half cock the hammer is caught. So half cock shouldn't be enough to set off a primer.

    Additionally, half cock is normally a guarded position, where the hammer can't be taken off half cock without being cocked back off of it. You'll see that in the way a 1911 half cock grabs the sear and the way a P30 hammer catch is enclosed in a slot on the side of the trigger. You can't generally "slip" out of half cock.

    Above and beyond the potential energy at half cock and the way half cocks work, safety devices like the firing pin block normally make the question moot because the trigger bar isn't positioned to depress the pin block safety when the hammer isn't yet cocked.


    All of this stuff goes back to the 1800s with new modern layers of safety thrown on top. The new USP/P30 or CZ75BD type decockers are actually a departure from previous slide or frame decockers because they control neither the firing pin (Walther PP) nor the hammer (Sauer 38H).
    Last edited by Handy; 07-24-2017 at 11:26 PM.

  9. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keystone512 View Post
    Say it goes back to HK again or a HK armorer and they fail to replicate the malfunction, then what? Its clear the OP has zero confidence in his P30, only solution is to replace it.
    If the OP knows he didn't pull the trigger, then he and anyone who believes him is going to have to accept that gunk, powder, sand, lack of lube or an alignment of the planets means that once out of every millions decocks these guns may fire. Some people will be comfortable with those odds, some won't and will either abandon the platform or take precautions.

    It is not and has never been a perfect decock system, and HK may well decide to release a fourth version of it in the future. Maybe one that positively locates the hammer catch and activates the disconnector.

  10. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Handy View Post
    Just to be clear, what you are asking about isn't related to what we are talking about in the case of the OP.

    Specifically to the USP and generally to all pistols, "half cock" is supposed to be an amount of distance and mainspring pressure that is too small to ignite the primer. One of the reasons for half cock is that it prevents the gun from accidentally firing if you slip while manually cocking the hammer. If you slip before half cock, there isn't enough oomph to fire, if you get to half cock the hammer is caught. So half cock shouldn't be enough to set off a primer.

    Additionally, half cock is normally a guarded position, where the hammer can't be taken off half cock without being cocked back off of it. You'll see that in the way a 1911 half cock grabs the sear and the way a P30 hammer catch is enclosed in a slot on the side of the trigger. You can't generally "slip" out of half cock.

    Above and beyond the potential energy at half cock and the way half cocks work, safety devices like the firing pin block normally make the question moot because the trigger bar isn't positioned to depress the pin block safety when the hammer isn't yet cocked.


    All of this stuff goes back to the 1800s with new modern layers of safety thrown on top. The new USP/P30 or CZ75BD type decockers are actually a departure from previous slide or frame decockers because they control neither the firing pin (Walther PP) nor the hammer (Sauer 38H).
    Thanks for the response. I realize it's not related to what happened to the OP. However it got me thinking about what ifs. Really appreciate you letting me pick your brain. Even if what happened to the OP was a perfect storm of parts failure it's not enough to stop me from carrying my 45c. For ME there's no better gun to carry AIWB than a HK hammer gun.


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  11. #220
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    Why doesn't everyone quit clucking like a bunch of hens...this is getting boring...and if the OP is still questioning HK CS/unsatisfied, then DUMP the gun.

    If I am not mistaken don't various European agencies (and American LE?) use the P30?

    High-5 to the OP with a whole 12 posts who managed to generate furious internet activity.
    Last edited by Indreams84; 07-25-2017 at 12:22 AM.

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