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  1. #11
    AGG
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    Quote Originally Posted by PorterM View Post
    For anyone wanting a potential VP45, I highly recommend trying an HK45 or HK45c if you haven't already. Light LEM but with the heavy TRS, probably my favorite .45 setup (along with my USP 45 but I understand why it's too bulky for some folks).
    Not for small-handed/small-framed folks!!!

    Tony

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    Quote Originally Posted by HK CS1 View Post
    Saym14,

    Unfortunately, there is NOT going to be a VP45 released. The closest you will get to that is a HK45 V7.


    Thank you
    Thanks for the confirmation--- now what about the MR556/MR762 A3/A5???

    Tony

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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckster62 View Post
    This ^^^. The only way a VP45 would be released in the future is if there was a large enough contract to justify the R&D costs to bring it to market. And then and only then would get it in the civilian market.
    How about a contract with U.S. consumers???

    Tony

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  5. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by redpillregret View Post
    .45 ACP is a dying round. I’m honestly surprised they even bothered with a .40 caliber. Hell, Glock hasn’t even released a .40 Gen 5 in the US. That speaks volumes.

    There is no performance advantage to go with .40 or .45 over 9mm these days for LE agencies.
    You are either being disingenuous, or are funnin' us!!!

    Tony
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    Quote Originally Posted by AGG View Post
    You are either being disingenuous, or are funnin' us!!!

    Tony
    Not at all. Please, show me where Iím wrong.

    Go by an arms store. Ask what they sell more of. Call Lucky Gunner, ask what they sell the most of.

    Look at posts by DocGKR, see FBI testing.

    Look at FBI uniform crime reports and see the data on mean rounds fired to incapacitation.

    Look at the LE trade-ins and see which are always in stock and which calibers.

    Look at the equipment in competition circles. In disciplines where .40 and .45 used to be a thing, 9mm Major rules the roost. People are leaving limited for minor disciplines.

    1995 called, they want their .40 and .45s back.

    /thread.


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    While I certainly don't have any insider's track (or ear), I doubt that HK has any intention of coming up with a .45 ACP caliber VP. Given the cascade of 1) significantly improved 9mm performance {both in terms of cartridges overall and bullets}, 2) minimal 9mm recoil {particularly compared to both .40 and .45 ACP), and 3) the increased size (both frame and slide) required to accommodate the .45 ACP, I think there's a diminished market for a .45 ACP VP-even a carefully delineated and marketed niche market. In other words, I just don't see the "juice equaling the squeeze" for HK.

    They would have to significantly re-engineer the VP, and would have to expand manufacturing process, and expend resources on marketing.

    Careful study by HK, Vickers and Hackathorn resulted in HK not going with a HK 1911, but a revamped USP .45, with the HK45 and HK45 Compact. Both were clearly oriented towards, and market to the military/LEO community; subsequently, the .mil and LEO communities have moved significantly to (or remained significantly with) 9mm. I suspect the closed you'll see in the foreseeable future from HK in .45 ACP similar to striker-fired operations characteristic would be the LEM versions of existing HK .45 ACP models.

    While I don't necessarily agree that the .45 ACP (or the .40) cartridge is "dying," I certainly think its appeal is diminished by the spate of product-improved 9mm available to us. I see .40 maintaining a significant niche for situations/environments where increased penetration is desired (e.g., wilderness or barrier situations), but am unsure what the overall viability of .45 ACP is, other than being a generally viable, accurate and history-laden cartridge. I think its appeal is slowly being eroded by 9mm, which is also lighter, less expensive, equally accurate, and smaller/size efficient.

    Best, Jon
    Last edited by JonHK40; 08-20-2019 at 06:37 PM.

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    Not to stir up a hornet's nest (or a caliber debate) but I bet if some sort of national law is passed limiting magazine capacity then you will see a resurgence of non-9mm calibers in the civilian world.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong or inadequate with 9mm but the studies that caused most agencies to change back to 9mm were based on less recoil and more capacity for the average shooter. If you are an above-average shooter then the equation changes and if you limit capacity, it negates it even further. We can argue all day long about the merits of different calibers but the bottom line is that the infamous FBI study (and similar studies) all come back to newer/inexperienced shooters and their ability to control the weapon.

    Me personally, I own pistols in every major caliber, and the 9mm is my least-carried. My reasoning is that I practice regularly with them all and I am a proficient, experienced shooter and so I like to harness any potential advantage when it comes to choosing between the common pistol calibers. I will admit my VP9sk was my primary edc for almost a year starting last summer but I am back to carrying my .357 SIG and .45 ACP pistols now.
    Last edited by PorterM; 08-19-2019 at 05:23 PM.
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  9. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by PorterM View Post
    Not to stir up a hornet's nest (or a caliber debate) but I bet if some sort of national law is passed limiting magazine capacity then you will see a resurgence of non-9mm calibers in the civilian world.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong or inadequate with 9mm but the studies that caused most agencies to change back to 9mm were based on less recoil and more capacity for the average shooter. If you are an above-average shooter then the equation changes and if you limit capacity, it negates it even further. We can argue all day long about the merits of different calibers but the bottom line is that the infamous FBI study (and similar studies) all come back to newer/inexperienced shooters and their ability to control the weapon.

    Me personally, I own pistols in every major caliber, and the 9mm is my least-carried. My reasoning is that I practice regularly with them all and I am a proficient, experienced shooter and so I like to harness any potential advantage when it comes to choosing between the common pistol calibers. I will admit my VP9sk was my primary edc for almost a year starting last summer but I am back to carrying my .357 SIG and .45 ACP pistols now.

    The average rounds on target to incapacitation is 1.4 to 1.7 according to the FBI for anything from .380 up to .44 Magnum. Even if restricted on round count, which we arenít but if you were would your existing magazines disappear? Even if there were a restriction...the 9mm recoils less and returns a sight picture more quickly. You can shoot a 9mm faster and more accurately.

    There is nothing the .357 Sig and .45 ACP is going to do for a civilian CCWer that 9mm wonít. In fact, 9mm is a more adequate round statistically speaking.


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    Just giving my thoughts on the subject; I won't argue that the average civilian would be best served by 9mm.

    My point is that if we use the "just as good" logic, a .380 is "just as good" as a .44 magnum... until it's not. Every other caliber benefited from the same improvements in technology as the 9mm that once failed to perform, to the point that the same FBI that did said study created an entirely new caliber and arguably spurred the creation of a second.
    Last edited by PorterM; 08-19-2019 at 05:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PorterM View Post
    Just giving my thoughts on the subject; I won't argue that the average civilian would be best served by 9mm.

    My point is that if we use the "just as good" logic, a .380 is "just as good" as a .44 magnum... until it's not. Every other caliber benefited from the same improvements in technology as the 9mm that once failed to perform, to the point that the same FBI that did said study created an entirely new caliber and arguably spurred the creation of a second.
    Actually, no. Every caliber didnít get equal improvement. The .380 is too slow to overcome filling of the hollow point and fail to expand more often than not with current technology.

    .40 was already operating at such high pressure better propellants donít gain anything.

    .45 has been a black hole for a while and not really as researched as 9mm and .40 S&W. However, marginal performance increases have been attained.

    Guys, the data is out there. Donít put your fingers in your ear and scream ďlalalalalal I canít hear you.Ē


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