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Thread: VP9 Striker Drop with Impact to Grip

  1. #31
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    I like my VP9 but my end of the world gun will always be my V1 USPC9.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by hkshooterusp View Post
    For those who feel that others are nothing but alarmists when it comes to this issue and those who feel like "It's not a big deal since the chance is so small, just another malfunction to add to the list", this guy will disagree with you.

    https://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-handg...p9-issues.html

    No matter how tiny the chance, if it's your tail on the line you are going to want to be able to trust your weapon with your life. When people need a gun to work RIGHT NOW they are not expecting to have to figure out why there was no bang a split second before their last chance to live evaporates. Consider for a moment the stresses and forces applied to this mans side arm during the conflict and suddenly "that perfect hit at just the right angle and force" is out the window. Who knows what happened during that mess that caused the trigger to go dead? Would you feel comfortable enough to depend on it?
    This isn't about insults, it isn't about anyone being wrong, and it certainly isn't anyone telling anyone else they are wrong for liking and using the VP pistols. It's about a serious issue that can potentially render the side arm useless rather easily, for as of yet unknown reasons, and has been proven repeatable. It isn't what I'd call a rare anomaly.
    Be professionals, consider the issue as serious as if YOUR life depended on it. Or, the life of your child or mate.

    Myself, I'm glad the issue has come to light. It's important to get info out there so people can make informed decisions and this matter has sealed that fact that I'll never count on a VP pistol.
    No matter how tiny the chance? Why not just stay inside when there is lighting outside? Every gun has a chance of malfunctioning but we still carry them, right? We can't just say that if there is even a slightest chance of a malfunction that then the entire gun in not dependable. Every single make and model of gun that is out there, that has been around for awhile, I can find an example of when someone used it and it failed them due to whatever reason. Every gun has its share of anecdotal recounts such as the one you cited where the gun malfunctioned somehow. There only seems to be one example that this malfunction was recreated in an gun fight. Also, we don't know the condition of that specific VP9.

    But not every failure is equal in chance of occurring or severity. So we need to do our best to quantify the chances or such failures and make an informed decision on how impactful the design flaws really are. I did my best to make a logical assessment based the years that I have watched gun fights captured on camera which anyone can view for themselves on the ASP youtube channel as well. The chance of ground fighting in which the firearm strikes the ground or a gun falling out of someones hands in exceedingly rare. I think people are forgetting about all the other things that can go wrong in gun fighting too that malfunctions guns much more easily than this, such as out of battery from retention shooting. Based on my post above, my claim is that in actual gun fights (not controlled situations that are purposely done to malfunction the gun) the chance of that specific malfunction (sear dropping the firing pin from an upward strike) is on par with a normal malfunctions seen in any handgun. Or course, If we see more reports of this happening in uncontrolled environments such as gun fights then of course that will be taken into account.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngo888 View Post
    No matter how tiny the chance?
    It is a zero chance of that specific malfunction with other guns. They all can have all kinds of malfunctions but the VP9 has this one extra. So the question is what's so irreplaceably awesome in the VP9 over multiple options that don't do this stuff in the year 2020 that one would take the non-zero chance with the VP9?

    Here is an analogous story, I had to deal with this in my practice last year. A lead malfunction in Medtronic pacemakers. Very rare occurrence, four events in two patients. Nobody died. Standard, for the industry, reaction from the manufacturer: all unused inventory removal, software patch for susceptible cases, with further contingency explant possibilities. So the question is: if you needed a pacemaker and knew about that tiny possibility of a malfunction that has not lead to a death, so far that is, would you want that lead implanted, or something else that doesn't have this problem at all?

    https://www.medtronic.com/us-en/heal...er-recall.html

    And then there is this: irrespective of low to very low probabilities of a negative adverse outcome due to this problem, a firearm dropping a striker from an impact that otherwise leaves that firearm intact is **** that simply shouldn't happen.
    cornstalker likes this.

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  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by YVK View Post
    It is a zero chance of that specific malfunction with other guns. They all can have all kinds of malfunctions but the VP9 has this one extra. So the question is what's so irreplaceably awesome in the VP9 over multiple options that don't do this stuff in the year 2020 that one would take the non-zero chance with the VP9?

    Here is an analogous story, I had to deal with this in my practice last year. A lead malfunction in Medtronic pacemakers. Very rare occurrence, four events in two patients. Nobody died. Standard, for the industry, reaction from the manufacturer: all unused inventory removal, software patch for susceptible cases, with further contingency explant possibilities. So the question is: if you needed a pacemaker and knew about that tiny possibility of a malfunction that has not lead to a death, so far that is, would you want that lead implanted, or something else that doesn't have this problem at all?

    https://www.medtronic.com/us-en/heal...er-recall.html

    And then there is this: irrespective of low to very low probabilities of a negative adverse outcome due to this problem, a firearm dropping a striker from an impact that otherwise leaves that firearm intact is **** that simply shouldn't happen.
    Yes, this specific malfunction in the VP9 raises the chance of overall malfunction in a gun fight. But does that mean the VP9 will now malfunction more than other guns overall? We don't know because other guns may have a design flaw that predisposes them to an increased chance of other certain types of malfunctions that we don't know about. Yes, most other guns can't malfunction using a mallet or a desk with an upward force on the handle but other guns might have an increased chance of malfunctioning with other things such as different environment conditions, user error, or certain ammunition. I don't think its as simple as the VP9 now has the same rate of malfunction as other guns PLUS the chance of this new malfunction. How do we compare this updated theoretical overall chance of malfunction of the VP9 to that of other guns? We can't and the difference in chance is so small and unknown that we shouldn't even be worried about this new theoretical chance of malfunction. Unlike your pacemaker example where hardware problems are extensively documented, reported and compared to that of other pacemakers, we don't have that level of reporting for firearm malfunctions. There is no accurate way of comparing malfunction rates in guns. So the best we can do is focus on real life example of malfunctions in the real world and keep a tally on how many times we see it. That was what happened with the Sig P320 drop firing fiasco and a ton of people reported the issue that occurred during live fire. So far we already know of a person who believes that his vp9 malfunctioned this way in the real world, so we can keep an eye on other cases.

  6. #35
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    I had no idea this could occur in the VP9. Thanks for the information.
    HK - No Compromise

  7. #36
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    Wow, dudes head is buried deep in the sand.

    By the way ASP have many shootings on his channel, but they are only indicative of shootings which have surveillance footage available which is leaked in some way. There are countless examples of gunfights thay ended physical altercations that happens prior to going to guns. If you have ever been in a physical altercation, you know most all of them involving going to ground or being slammed into walls.

    Just because you like something is no reason to ignore issues that arise. And yes, there is some major testing of firearms. Because you don’t know where to find it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Many military and LE tests are made public from time to time. One of the most well-known being the recent US Army pistol trials.


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  8. #37
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    I used to own two VP9's. I could drop the striker on both of them with a rap on the bottom of the grip with a rubber mallet. One of the two had the match spring kit in it and being altered doesn't really count, but the match springs made it really easy to induce a dead trigger. The unaltered, low round count gun didn't drop the striker as easily as the one with the wimpy springs. It was still too easy to produce striker drops. Maybe they don't all do it, but both of mine did. Mine were both early guns.

    In my mind, a strike on the butt of the gun is not that far fetched if you were in a fight or LE UOF situation.
    YVK likes this.

  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngo888 View Post
    We don't know because other guns may have a design flaw that predisposes them to an increased chance of other certain types of malfunctions that we don't know about.
    We live in times when every single little blip gets cataloged by the internet. Certain designs have been in circulation for decades without any core changes, millions of units by now. We've numerous trials on record that test the crap out of submitted guns, so much so that they can find some obscure drop angle that could cause a gun to fire, an angle that was outside of standard SAAMI testing protocols. We even know what other striker guns besides the VP9 have had the same problem with unintended striker release. I would only be worried about some unknown / undiscovered problems in low circulation, relatively new designs, and the VP9 is both.
    cornstalker likes this.

  10. #39
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    Hmm, let me simplify my feelings...

    Considering there are no perfect man made mechanical devices, I'd rather trust my life to a weapon that runs perfectly 99.9 percent of the time than I would one that runs 99.8 percent of the time. Wouldn't you?

    Even a weapon that doesn't run well for whatever reason will usually at least fire the very first round in the chamber. That comes into question with this VP9 issue, no?
    cornstalker likes this.
    I don't "run" my guns or "run" anything on them. Likewise, none of my guns are "platforms". I hold them up, not the other way around.

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    Life is full of choices and most of us use some sort of risk analysis in a lot of what we do. If one can shoot a pistol significantly better than another model that may potentially have better reliability in one regard in extreme circumstances that the owner is extremely unlikely to encounter a decision needs to be made which is going to be most important to the individual. Every person will have somewhat different risk profile. I recently underwent a procedure that my interventional radiologist did on me and there were risks involved and I had to make a decision on what was most important to me. We do the the same deciding where we live, where to travel to, where we work, where to go to school, what recreational activities we pursue, what automobile to drive, when to go grocery shopping, what tires to put on the automobile, where to go on vacation, and on and on.

    There is a long long list of things that can go wrong in a self defense encounter. As an individual prioritize them, asses the risk including any "personal show stoppers" if any, and then make a decision.
    Last edited by grumpy1; 02-09-2020 at 05:58 PM.
    "The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
    ― Thomas Jefferson

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