HK433 - The new assault rifle from HK - Page 60
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Thread: HK433 - The new assault rifle from HK

  1. #591
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    The 433 is going to be a superior weapons system once the inevitable bugs are worked out.
    My hope is that they manufacture it in the U.S. and make a semi auto version available for civilian sale in the U.S.
    I would happily buy one or three. It’s a beautiful rifle.
    Not much more to share on the prospect of the 433 and military contracts at this time. Let’s push for a civilian semi auto for domestic manufacturing that we can all buy.
    Last edited by CGuns1; 05-15-2020 at 04:38 PM.

  2. #592
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    Sadly, HK have said that they're prioritizing Armed Forces/LE for the 433, and they really seem to have placed all the eggs into the German Army tender basket. Granted, I'm fairly confident at this stage it'll be the 433 or nothing. But as to sticking with the 433, unless someone has more to offer about it, we don't have much to talk about. I'd be nice if the German Army or HK would give and update or if the trade shows like IWA/Enforce Tac didn't get postponed or cancelled.

    Only "new" things I found about the 433 are actually year old photos from IWA last year that I didn't find before. But they're small sized and don't really show much of anything new. I can post them or links to them if anyone wants them, but beyond that, I don't have anything.

    EDIT: I'm going to go head and post the images now before I lay down for a while.

    HK433 - The new assault rifle from HK-cdd77a8ddc05396c36b6b51346110327.jpg

    HK433 - The new assault rifle from HK-6ee96ff50f04e64d2233ffc1cd18cf5b.jpg

    HK433 - The new assault rifle from HK-__b_enforce-tac-16.jpg

    HK433 - The new assault rifle from HK-__b_enforce-tac-17.jpg

    https://x.webdo.cc/userfiles/combatk...%E5%88%8AA.jpg

    https://x.webdo.cc/userfiles/combatk...PhotoCap_3.jpg
    Last edited by BarnOwlLover; 05-15-2020 at 09:32 PM.

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    I agree much depends on how the weapon ends up coming out of the competitions and on what grounds / features the contract will be awarded.
    But I also believe if they get the contract others will jump aboard and the 433 has the potential to become HKs new bread and butter rifle so once they completed their first big contract obligations they will make a civilian version available.
    CGuns1 likes this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JimKnopf View Post
    I agree much depends on how the weapon ends up coming out of the competitions and on what grounds / features the contract will be awarded.
    But I also believe if they get the contract others will jump aboard and the 433 has the potential to become HKs new bread and butter rifle so once they completed their first big contract obligations they will make a civilian version available.
    Makes sense, but chances are only in EU unless they license foreign production in the US. With a possible Green + Anybody government, don’t see that happening for civi sales. But I am not from there and IIRC you are.
    "Just because you're paranoid doesn’t mean they're not after you!"

  6. #595
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    Ok I have a few more infos that are shareable one interesting factor is, that the 433 will be available with a G36 or HK416 lower - for the German Bundeswher that’s a huge thing because it would mean less training on a 433 / G36 lower combo.

    I now know where the comment about price of the 416 came from and may share that that was not a correct statement the 416 may actually still be in competition.

    I found an interesting document released by the German Bundestag according to that i know most of you are not able to read German - multiple caliber configurations was actually a requirement

    According to that document it seems like at least one of the suppliers is being heavily scrutinized financially and capacity wise - that being said HK Announced a first quarter profit for the first time after years...

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    Nice that they finally made Q1 profit...it is smart for them to make the 433 magazine and caliber convertible.
    I think the G36 magazine is the second most prolific 5.56 magazine after the AR15/M4 types.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JimKnopf View Post
    Ok I have a few more infos that are shareable one interesting factor is, that the 433 will be available with a G36 or HK416 lower - for the German Bundeswher that’s a huge thing because it would mean less training on a 433 / G36 lower combo.

    I now know where the comment about price of the 416 came from and may share that that was not a correct statement the 416 may actually still be in competition.

    I found an interesting document released by the German Bundestag according to that i know most of you are not able to read German - multiple caliber configurations was actually a requirement

    According to that document it seems like at least one of the suppliers is being heavily scrutinized financially and capacity wise - that being said HK Announced a first quarter profit for the first time after years...
    Interesting. Does it appear the Bundeswehr has changed any of the original requirements in the tender, such as the specified weight limit? I know HK addressed a letter, which you alluded to previously, attempting to persuade them to consider revising the requirements so as to allow heavier 7.62mm rifles to be submitted. Google translate was mildly helpful with the document you shared.


    Tspeis

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    I read somewhere that the German Army recommended that the 433 (or anything else) use StanAg/AR-15 mags, not because of NATO recommendations (StanAg 4179 was a recommendation, but never an actual NATO standardization agreement), but because of equipment, namely mag pouches agreeing more with the AR-15 mags vs G36 mags. I also thought that's why the 433 has the G36 paddle release with either mag well.

    Also, the 416 isn't multi-caliber aside from 5.56mm/.223 and .300 Blackout. 433 is slated to be 5.56mm/.223, .300 Blackout, 7.62x39 and maybe 7.62mm NATO/.308 Win.

    And HK may not be insanely healthy from a financial standpoint, but I don't see how Haenel is better off. They're simply too small a company to deliver rifles to the German Army at the rate they want them, let alone while keeping their commercial and LE lines going. And yes, I'm well aware that Haenel is now (and has been for a few years) owned by UAE based Caracal International. But Caracal itself is a small company, let alone it's Haenel/Merkel division.

    It also doesn't help here that the Germans are kinda screwed if they want a "German" rifle. Sig Sauer, though Swiss based, is German owned. But the 550 family probably won't meet requirements and the MCX (which was submitted) is a Sig Sauer North America design, and hence could face export troubles related to the ITAR treaty. Also, the Steyr/Rheinmetall rifle (basically a hybrid of an AUG and a AR-15) also dropped out of the competition early on for unknown reasons.

    So if not a HK rifle, they have to buy abroad, which won't make Germany look good in international eyes when they have HK in their back yard already making most of the stuff they use, anyways (USP 9mm P8 pistol for general issue, USP .45 P12 for the KSK and other spec ops, MP7 replacing the UZI as the GI SMG, the MG4 SAW and MG5 GPMG). It also won't look good if they buy SCARs from FN or Bren 2s from CZ when HK are offering a rifle that's just as good or maybe in someways better.
    Last edited by BarnOwlLover; 05-16-2020 at 09:09 AM.

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    Ok sorry for the late response we had a nice Saturday and I got some yard work done...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tspeis View Post
    Interesting. Does it appear the Bundeswehr has changed any of the original requirements in the tender, such as the specified weight limit? I know HK addressed a letter, which you alluded to previously, attempting to persuade them to consider revising the requirements so as to allow heavier 7.62mm rifles to be submitted. Google translate was mildly helpful with the document you shared.
    German grammar is very logical but complicated and much of reasoning you can make out of writing lays in the exact interpretation of the grammar used, hence google translator is usually not very useful. From reading the document it appears like they changed requirements early on in the process but it seems like that was before the first round of tests where all rifles failed. And since there has not been a change in requirements so we are still at that same weight limit. The document refers to "must have requirements" and "not must haves" company that fulfills all must haves at the most economical price will be awarded with the contract.

    Quote Originally Posted by BarnOwlLover View Post
    Also, the 416 isn't multi-caliber aside from 5.56mm/.223 and .300 Blackout. 433 is slated to be 5.56mm/.223, .300 Blackout, 7.62x39 and maybe 7.62mm NATO/.308 Win.
    This is actually part of the documents questioning, it specifically asks about whether the rifles entered would fulfill that requirement in regards to 7.62. As answer the document refers to an addendum that is classified. But they are not asking this question for no reason so I assume the oversight committee is onto something here... Though I think they may also try get around the whole issue with claiming different versions of the same rifle without having interchangeable uppers like the 416/417 - I guess it will come down to the exact wording and interpretation of the "must haves"

    Quote Originally Posted by BarnOwlLover View Post
    And HK may not be insanely healthy from a financial standpoint, but I don't see how Haenel is better off. They're simply too small a company to deliver rifles to the German Army at the rate they want them, let alone while keeping their commercial and LE lines going. And yes, I'm well aware that Haenel is now (and has been for a few years) owned by UAE based Caracal International. But Caracal itself is a small company, let alone it's Haenel/Merkel division.
    Yes I think HK is in a position ahead of Haenel, yet the document states that all competitors fulfill EU commission standards for government contracts in the expected volume range and therefore would be fit for delivering. Yet again I think they are not asking for no reason. Personally I don't see Haenels' owners structure much of a problem since the acquisition had to be approved by the government in the first place and after all HKs' owners structure is more than chaotic and questionable.

    Quote Originally Posted by BarnOwlLover View Post
    It also doesn't help here that the Germans are kinda screwed if they want a "German" rifle. Sig Sauer, though Swiss based, is German owned. But the 550 family probably won't meet requirements and the MCX (which was submitted) is a Sig Sauer North America design, and hence could face export troubles related to the ITAR treaty. Also, the Steyr/Rheinmetall rifle (basically a hybrid of an AUG and a AR-15) also dropped out of the competition early on for unknown reasons.

    So if not a HK rifle, they have to buy abroad, which won't make Germany look good in international eyes when they have HK in their back yard already making most of the stuff they use, anyways (USP 9mm P8 pistol for general issue, USP .45 P12 for the KSK and other spec ops, MP7 replacing the UZI as the GI SMG, the MG4 SAW and MG5 GPMG). It also won't look good if they buy SCARs from FN or Bren 2s from CZ when HK are offering a rifle that's just as good or maybe in someways better.
    Its not just about "not looking good" its also about all large government contracts are a form of hidden government aid to companies and economy, all countries do that with their industries so its no surprise they are geared to award the contract to a German manufacturer and its not like there wouldn't be any good choices.
    Last edited by JimKnopf; 05-17-2020 at 04:22 PM.

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    I've actually visited Haenel's site a few times over the past couple of years, and though they do make good rifles it seems for commercial or LE use, I do get the sense that the company isn't really that geared towards armed forces production, even though it seems that's what they want here. I still don't see how they, as a relative boutique maker of AR-15s, can supply the German Army with over 120,000 rifles even if that's spread out over a period of 6-7 years. And as you mentioned, in recent years the German Armed Forces have gotten kinda burned at times getting relatively small companies to bid on major contracts. IE, there's a reason why it's mostly Rheinmetall winning most of the mechanized/vehicle based contracts recently.

    Also, I'm still having a bit of a hard time seeing how well an AR-15 based rifle with basically a fixed stock (though adjustable for length of pull) will fly when the G36 had from the beginning a folding stock. Even the G3 was available with a collapsible stock that's fully collapsible and can be fitted with a folding stock, too (Sphur makes one that the Swedish Army are fitting to G3s). For compactness, with a fixed buffer tube stock you'll need a shorter barrel. Which I don't think the German Army wants. KSK can use a 416 with a 14.5 barrel because of how their ops work. But I do think that say 16.5 inches would be better for general issue. Especially if Germany are yet to adopt M855A1 or similar rounds like FN's SS109 EPR.

    And your document and bringing up the 433 using a G36 influenced lower does seem to make it clear that at least an element of the Army or the procurement does seem to favor a rifle that's like the G36 but more modern. Which IMO in a lot of ways the AR-15 being compared to the G36 is like comparing chalk and cheese. Not to mention that there's a thread in the video area dedicated to a video that InRange did with a Tommy Built G36 clone that aced their mud test as far as they're concerned (only modern rifles I saw that also did so were the FN SCAR and a Colt AR-15, though a MR556 they tested failed--I don't hold their test to be scientific anyways). Also, the XM8 (basically a US Army spec G36 that was looked at to possibly replace the M16 and M4) aced US Army mud and sand tests vs the likes of the M4 and SCAR.

    IMO, I can't see any reason not to adopt the 433, a few not to adopt the MK556 or 416, and few to adopt basically a piston driven AR-15 over keeping the G36 if need be aside from the PR disaster that the G36 became to the German Army, HK and the German Gov't. Which does go to show how ignorant the public is, especially one that's indifferent to their own country's Armed Forces or guns/weapons in general.

    And, oddly, here in the US, Colt is the only company that's getting major US Armed Forces contracts right now for commonly used weapons. And even that contract (for the M4) is shared with FN America. Most everyone else is foreign owned. M17/M18 pistols are made by Sig Sauer, M240, M249, almost all M16s and many M4s and the SCAR are made by FN. The USMC's M27 (cough, HK416, cough) are made by HK. And even the M320, which is made under license by a subcontractor (reportedly to varying quality) is a HK design. Yes, all these firearms are made by those companies' North American divisions to suit procurement requirements, but the ownership of those companies are foreign aside from Colt, who have to share the M4 contract with FNH/FNA.
    Last edited by BarnOwlLover; 05-17-2020 at 05:12 PM.

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