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Thread: Mad Max MP5 bolt

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by fargo007 View Post
    I'm having a hard time with this.

    The MP5 isn't a blowback firearm.

    Which blowback design firearm does not have an extractor at all?
    The entire G3 family are roller delayed blowback firearms. They work because the casing pushes its way out of the chamber. The rollers, trunnion and locking piece slow the casing down via mechanical disadvantage - the bolt carrier initially must move several times the distance of the bolt head, which effectively multiplies the momentum of the bolt carrier. But this is still "blowback" - the breech was never locked. Blowback extraction is called "primary extraction" because the case is removing itself from the chamber rather than being tugged out by the extractor.

    All the Beretta and Taurus pistol with tip-up barrel pistols are blowback with no extractors, as were the Bergmann #1,#2 and #3, and the 7.65mm Steyr-Pieper Selbstladepistole Model 1908. Extractors on blowback weapons are there to manually clear the chamber and/or to guide the casing during the extraction and serve as a pivot point during ejection.

    Quote Originally Posted by NoScoE30 View Post
    The mp5 doesn't have failures to extract. The problem happens when there is a malfunction and a case gets jammed between the extractor and something else and hyper extends the spring. Then, the extractor just rattles around and contacts the trunnion and doesn't hold cases reliably for ejection.
    Thanks - great answer.

  2. #12
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    Roller delayed blowback firearms are most definitely not the same as a simple blowback design like an UZI, Colt SMG, etc.

    So I don't think it's completely correct to say that the MP5 is a "blowback" design. HK has always described it as delayed roller locking blowback system (DRLBS) which to me distinguishes it from a basic blowback design.

    I was thinking along SMG lines. Thanks for those examples.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by fargo007 View Post
    Roller delayed blowback firearms are most definitely not the same as a simple blowback design like an UZI, Colt SMG, etc.

    So I don't think it's completely correct to say that the MP5 is a "blowback" design. HK has always described it as delayed roller locking blowback system (DRLBS) which to me distinguishes it from a basic blowback design.

    I was thinking along SMG lines. Thanks for those examples.
    "Roller delayed" is a modification of the term "blowback", but it is definitely blowback. The chamber opens itself and starts doing that immediately after ignition - that's what blowback is. The word "locked" is a misnomer - rollers don't "lock" the chamber any more than the gas piston in a P7 does. The rollers just make the transmission of blowback forces more complicated. But the action is "locked" for no amount of time - the chamber begins to open immediately and in direct proportion to chamber pressure.

    Locked breech firearms do not begin to open the breech until something external has happened - like the gas piston hitting the bolt carrier or the slide retracting until the barrel is cammed down.

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  5. #14
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    I disagree. It's not an adjective. It's part of the system's name. Literally the single thing that makes it special.

    "Roller delayed" is a core component of the operating system. It can't be divorced from the term "blowback" when talking about HK's design.

    This is where I disagree with you. The statement that 'the MP5 is a blowback firearm' is to me, technically incorrect. At best an oversimplification that I am sure HK engineers would also not accept. HK has never described their guns using the word blowback, without the full nature of their operating system (Roller Delayed).


    Blowback is an operating system design. Roller-delayed-blowback is a completely different one.

    We can see it differently and still be friends.

  6. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by fargo007 View Post
    I disagree. It's not an adjective. It's part of the system's name. Literally the single thing that makes it special.

    "Roller delayed" is a core component of the operating system. It can't be divorced from the term "blowback" when talking about HK's design.

    This is where I disagree with you. The statement that 'the MP5 is a blowback firearm' is to me, technically incorrect. At best an oversimplification that I am sure HK engineers would also not accept. HK has never described their guns using the word blowback, without the full nature of their operating system (Roller Delayed).


    Blowback is an operating system design. Roller-delayed-blowback is a completely different one.

    We can see it differently and still be friends.
    "Blowback" isn't an operating system design, it is a general category. What you would like to call "blowback" is actually "Straight (or Simple) Blowback". Open bolt subguns are actually "Advanced Primer Ignition" Blowback. Roller Delayed Blowback, Gas Delayed Blowback, Lever Delayed Blowback, Rotating Barrel Blowback, Off Axis Blowback. They are all the subtypes of the general category of blowback operation.

    If we were talking USPs you could call them "recoil operated", but they are also a particular type of recoil operation - Tilt Barrel as opposed to Tilting Block, Roller Locked, Rotating Bolt or Rotating Barrel.


    It doesn't matter if the English translation of German terminology makes it sound like it is a locked breech firearm. It isn't.



    Why does it matter? Because the behavior of all blowback firearms are similar. All are primary extractors, which is why it is important to understand that what they use the extractors for is different than secondary extraction firearms like gas or recoil operation.
    Last edited by Handy; 06-26-2017 at 06:59 PM.

  7. #16
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    I never said it was a locked breech design. You are arguing against what HK has called it.

    I see calling the MP5 a "blowback" firearm to be a gross oversimplification.

    "Roller Delayed Blowback."

    Which two of those three words make the MP5 and all the other G3 descendants remarkable?

    I could say "Roller Delayed" and most would immediately associate that with an HK.

    You say "blowback," and nobody knows what you mean.

    We should describe a gun like the MP5's operating system with its full name. Because it's a unique and wildly successful design in the bloodline of small arms development.

    Unless you truly feel that all the different sub-categories you mentioned are so indistinguishable from each other that everyone understands them to be essentially the same.

    I miss G3Kurz.

  8. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by fargo007 View Post
    I never said it was a locked breech design. You are arguing against what HK has called it.

    I see calling the MP5 a "blowback" firearm to be a gross oversimplification.

    "Roller Delayed Blowback."

    Which two of those three words make the MP5 and all the other G3 descendants remarkable?

    I could say "Roller Delayed" and most would immediately associate that with an HK.

    You say "blowback," and nobody knows what you mean.

    We should describe a gun like the MP5's operating system with its full name. Because it's a unique and wildly successful design in the bloodline of small arms development.

    Unless you truly feel that all the different sub-categories you mentioned are so indistinguishable from each other that everyone understands them to be essentially the same.

    I miss G3Kurz.
    The point I was making was that all blowback firearms are primary extractors, and none of them suffer from "failures to extract". You're getting wrapped up in the specifics of HK's variation and missing the point I was making that it shares that characteristic with all blowback firearms.

    So if you want to avoid "gross oversimplification", you're going to have to stop reading the word "blowback" as a specific system - it isn't one. "Blowback" is a basic category and "Simple Blowback" and "Roller Delayed Blowback" are the specific types.

    I didn't make a "gross oversimplification" because what I said was completely accurate as applied to every kind of blowback firearm. Of the two people that replied, NoScoE30 understood me and you are the only person who didn't "know what [I] mean". I made a statement that applied just as much to an MP5 as any other blowback firearm and your objection doesn't change that at all.

    The MP5 isn't a blowback firearm.
    This is 100% incorrect.

    G3Kurz understands these distinctions perfectly well.
    Last edited by Handy; 06-26-2017 at 08:52 PM.

  9. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Handy View Post

    So if you want to avoid "gross oversimplification", you're going to have to stop reading the word "blowback" as a specific system - it isn't one. "Blowback" is a basic category and "Simple Blowback" and "Roller Delayed Blowback" are the specific types.
    On this, we will never agree. Since the specific types are drastically different, it's gross oversimplification to fail to call them each what they are.

  10. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by fargo007 View Post
    On this, we will never agree.
    That may be, but only because you are using the terminology incorrectly.

    "Blowback" is to "internal combustion engine" the way "roller delayed blowback" is to "Miller cycle piston engine" or "Wankel Rotary engine". "Roller Delay" is a subcategory, the category is "blowback operation".

    Firearms
    - Self loading firearms
    -- Blowback
    --- Delayed Blowback
    ---- Roller Delayed Blowback

  11. #20
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    I do see how you are using levels to justify calling large portions of very different guns' operating systems by the same oversimplified word. It makes sense to think of them that way.

    That said, what you are calling a "subcategory" is actually a very different overall system of operation per each of the examples you listed.

    Your "Straight Blowback" or open bolt "Advanced Primer Ignition" are so dramatically different technically from roller delayed that they should be called what they are.

    You see this as an issue of definition. I see it as more one of context and specificity.

    Nobody ever refers to the roller delayed blowback using only the word "blowback."

    Any more than you'd walk up to an ice cream stand and say "I'd like a frozen dairy dessert please."

    It's technically not incorrect to do so, but is there more to it than that? Yeah, there kinda is.

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