HK 433- will it ever be on the rack at the LGS? - Page 4
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Thread: HK 433- will it ever be on the rack at the LGS?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by sickness View Post
    Producing the M27? I suspect that US procurement procedures would favor companies producing the items domestically.

    Look, I'm not trying to be a kill-joy here, you can go ahead and hope all you like.

    I hope we'll get HK243's and some type of semi 433. That would be awesome.

    I just don't think its likely.
    since there is no range at the new plant they they will not make the m27 in the states. All m27 production will be in Germany

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    Quote Originally Posted by JBG View Post
    Part of why HK guns are so popular is because they are made in Germany. If they moved their facilities to the US, they would have enormous trouble keeping their quality standards, finding labour force (machinists, etc) and their quality would drop. .
    The actual problem with moving production to US is ITAR. HK must for strategical reasons avoid having a forced ITAR compliance on their product. Because that would put any military exports anywhere under a US approval process.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by sickness View Post

    The G36 and 433 are different animals. I have heard, but have no way to verify, that HK needed permission from the government to allow tooling for the G3 receivers to go overseas.
    Pakistan, Iran and Turkey seem to have made the list. I'm sure it's not possible for the US.

    The HK243 / Canuck import is an entirely German-made rifle. The 243 is good for German export, but not US import.

    To make a G36 clone, HK would have to do it in the US -- German doesn't want the means of production to make it overseas.

    Hence, Canucks get 243s but Yanks don't.
    They already play the import games for the MR556. They make what they need to make domestically, and import the rest. They already do it for one rifle, but it's impossible to do it for another? It's not.

    HK exports the rifles we want to essentially every market except ours.... It's not an export problem. Cugir imports AKs with single stack magazines. FN imports SCARS with blocked magazine wells...but it's unpossible for HK. It may be, but its because they choose not to import them.

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  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by baljar View Post
    The actual problem with moving production to US is ITAR. HK must for strategical reasons avoid having a forced ITAR compliance on their product. Because that would put any military exports anywhere under a US approval process.
    I don't doubt that HK may feel that way, if purely for political reasons, but I doubt that ITAR would prohibit the sale of weapons to the governments of Israel, Saudi Arabia, the Philippines, Colombia, Ecuador, El Salvador, Mexico, etc...

    Their plan apparently is to be told by two leftist think tanks whom it is safe to ship arms to, with the additional filter of German Government and EU restrictions. Simply labeling areas "conflict zones", and naively believing that the fighting will stop, or be resolved in favor of the good guys, if starved of HK weapons, is just silly. ITAR probably seems pretty pragmatic, by comparison.
    "Remain yourself, in spite of all the mighty do."
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    Quote Originally Posted by eodinert View Post
    They already play the import games for the MR556. They make what they need to make domestically, and import the rest. They already do it for one rifle, but it's impossible to do it for another? It's not.
    Again -- POSSIBLE has nothing to do with PROBABLE, PRAGMATIC, or PROFITABLE.

    It also seems that you are failing to appreciate the difference between exporting German produced rifles, created entirely on German-held machinery with exporting the technology to produce said rifles.
    The HK243 is made in Germany, and imported to Canada.

    The HK243 is not importable into the U.S; it would have to be a SL8-styled neutered version. And such neutered rifles don't sell -- because only a VERY small market of people WANT a G36 so bad that they'll undertake the conversion process.

    If it is not profitable, or possible, to get German government approval to send molds and tooling to the U.S. to produce the rifle domestically, then thats it -- it can't happen.

    As for the SCAR -- as far as I know, it is produced domestically in the United States. S. Carolina, specifically. FN has production facilities here. Which makes a lot of sense for FN, since FN has loads of military contracts with the the US government for various items.

    If the US Army adopts and fields loads of 416s, maybe we'll start to see more HK products produced domestically.

    Until then -- all this crap is just wonking. We don't have them. If history is any metric -- we will CONTINUE to not have them.
    Own: HK91, SR9, SP5k, G36k, HK416, P30L, 2x P8, 2x P8A1, USP9
    Future: Done, until HK comes out with something new & nifty. Might start building an FNH collection.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sickness View Post
    Again --
    As for the SCAR -- as far as I know, it is produced domestically in the United States. S. Carolina, specifically. FN has production facilities here. Which makes a lot of sense for FN, since FN has loads of military contracts with the the US government for various items.

    If the US Army adopts and fields loads of 416s, maybe we'll start to see more HK products produced domestically.
    The SCAR is definitely NOT produced domestically, although recently SKUs have been seen referring to a US made version. All current have Belgium listed as the place of manufacture listed on them, plus they all have the remnants of a pin that was shaved off in the mag well that originally blocked the lower from accepting hi-cap mags.

    The US military buying more HK416 isn’t going to change the mindset of the German government or politicians, because right now there is no real downside from having them made in Germany and shipped over here. Unless there was a major, major government weapons contract that specified that the winning bidder had to make the weapons inside the US, and HK determine that it was worthwhile pursuing from a business standpoint, there isn’t any real incentive for HK to change.

    I do agree that for all of the opinions by armchair keyboard specialists about how great it would be for HK to make all these rifles for US civilian consumption, the fact is that it’s HKs business to run and they are running it as they see fit, and no amount of HK should or shouldn’t do this or than on various forums is going to change that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dwillHK View Post
    The SCAR is definitely NOT produced domestically, although recently SKUs have been seen referring to a US made version. All current have Belgium listed as the place of manufacture listed on them, plus they all have the remnants of a pin that was shaved off in the mag well that originally blocked the lower from accepting hi-cap mags.
    OK, I think maybe we're getting caught up in definitions. That machining process to remove the pin would be considered "manufacturing" or "re-manufacturing" from ATF's perspective. With the pin in place, and low-cap mags, I guess that would make it importable even with folding stocks and such? That's news to me, but OK. Then FN America modifies these foreign rifles and makes them 922 compliant.

    In any event, legally speaking they are considered American made under 922, which is what I was ultimately getting at.

    Quote Originally Posted by dwillHK View Post
    I do agree that for all of the opinions by armchair keyboard specialists about how great it would be for HK to make all these rifles for US civilian consumption, the fact is that it’s HKs business to run and they are running it as they see fit, and no amount of HK should or shouldn’t do this or than on various forums is going to change that.
    For sure. Personally, I don't really care. I'm not emotionally involved with firearms. If and when fun stuff becomes available, I buy it. I'd love to get my hands on a semi 433 to compare it to the G36, but it isn't the end of the world if I dont.

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    So am I understanding (legit question here), that the MR556 lower is made in the U.S. but that the HK416 lower is made in Germany?

    Also, what do they then manufacture at HK's Georgia plant? Not being a wise-guy, I just don't know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dwillHK View Post
    The US military buying more HK416 isn’t going to change the mindset of the German government or politicians, because right now there is no real downside from having them made in Germany and shipped over here. Unless there was a major, major government weapons contract that specified that the winning bidder had to make the weapons inside the US, and HK determine that it was worthwhile pursuing from a business standpoint, there isn’t any real incentive for HK to change.
    Isn't that exactly what happened with FN? I thought their plant here was opened to build M16A2 rifles for a U.S. contract, plus bolt action sniper rifles, M240 (MAG) and M249 (Minimi) machineguns. I would imagine that the U.S. would insist on local production if they were to adopt the HK416 for general issue.

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