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Thread: Sear vs DLO? Information sought

  1. #91
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    From my understanding, it is the frame that is serialized, and none of the internals of DLO SEF packs are serialized nor registered.
    From my understanding, it is the frame that is serialized, and none of the internals of my LaFrance pack purchases are serialized nor registered.

    Must DLO owners save and use all of their original SEF internals when converting their SEF frame to ambi? Not that I'm aware of. So must one save & use all of the unregistered, and non-serialized internals from another registered and transferable box when converting from SEF to ambi?

    I've reviewed all of the previous LaFrance pack owners' stamped forms 3s/4s and they are as follows:
    Type of firearm = Machine Gun
    Additional description or data appearing on firearm = left blank (as in nothing entered here)

    *exception, one form says "Trigger pack only." for the Additional description or data appearing on firearm field.

    Can anyone honestly foresee a problem with the range officers when comparing my stamped form 4s to my serialized LaFrance frames?

    Its not like I only followed up with one or two gunsmiths before committing to this project. I checked with the big names, even with Tim LaFrance himself by both email and phone. I did offer this SEF to ambi project to Tim LaFrance and his only reservation was that he's already years behind on existing commitments, "I regretfully will have to pass on updating your MP5L units, though. I am no longer able to take in any more work. I don't know if I will even last long enough to finish off the 6PAC pistols I am working on now. People have been waiting more than 2 years for them and the first 6 won't be finished until July or August (and there are two dozen more left to complete after these)!" I've read that Terry Dyer is 3 years behind (he was a consideration since he already moded my 1st LaFrance pack purchase to ambi for the previous owner), but there are other gunsmiths that are ready to start as soon I can mail them off.
    Last edited by Neo-Geo; 05-03-2016 at 02:12 AM.
    Hidden Content Hidden Content Hidden Content . Hidden Content 7/14/2016.
    Check cleared 7/18/2016. Approved 6/16/2017. Stamps delivered 7/6/2017.

  2. #92
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    Neo, I have been following your journey and congratulations on your path! My question relates more to whether the HK factory internal replacement parts would interchange in the LaFrance frame (without additional modifications) due to it being a semi frame rather than a DLO frame which is a FA frame. I understand the frame is the registered piece on both. I am wondering about the sear (catch) in the LaFrance. Thanks.

  3. #93
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    I can say that I've provided pics (both long side views) of the SEF LaFrance packs along with scans of the corresponding form 3/4s to the top HK gunsmiths, and my request was, "My goal is to modify this trigger frame from SEF to ambidextrous while utilizing all factory internals. None of the internals are registered or serialized. Would this frame be a good candidate for this project?" If any complications were found, I wouldn't have bought the packs. Ironically, the ONLY complications I've come across for this SEF to ambi mod was with a couple DLO boxes, primarily because of the unfavorable engraving locations that they suffered from.

    Ultimately, all that matters to me is that the end result is factory spec FA transferable ambidextrous HK trigger frames that utilize all HK factory internals with flawless reliability without negatively affecting the original engraved LS logo/serials while also yielding aesthetically perfect specimens. I'll mail all 3 packs to the chosen gunsmith, and he need only to duplicate what has already been done for the previously converted ambi LaFrance pack.
    Last edited by Neo-Geo; 05-03-2016 at 02:50 AM.

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  5. #94
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    Neo what gunsmith u going with . I may get mine done too

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    I think Terry did one of his pack.
    TPM can do that too as far as I know.
    For me, I'm going to leave it as is :)


    Quote Originally Posted by yammx125 View Post
    Neo what gunsmith u going with . I may get mine done too

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    Neo is right here.


    Quote Originally Posted by Neo-Geo View Post
    I can say that I've provided pics (both long side views) of the SEF LaFrance packs along with scans of the corresponding form 3/4s to the top HK gunsmiths, and my request was, "My goal is to modify this trigger frame from SEF to ambidextrous while utilizing all factory internals. None of the internals are registered or serialized. Would this frame be a good candidate for this project?" If any complications were found, I wouldn't have bought the packs. Ironically, the ONLY complications I've come across for this SEF to ambi mod was with a couple DLO boxes, primarily because of the unfavorable engraving locations that they suffered from.

    Ultimately, all that matters to me is that the end result is factory spec FA transferable ambidextrous HK trigger frames that utilize all HK factory internals with flawless reliability without negatively affecting the original engraved LS logo/serials while also yielding aesthetically perfect specimens. I'll mail all 3 packs to the chosen gunsmith, and he need only to duplicate what has already been done for the previously converted ambi LaFrance pack.

  8. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neo-Geo View Post
    I can say that I've provided pics (both long side views) of the SEF LaFrance packs along with scans of the corresponding form 3/4s to the top HK gunsmiths, and my request was, "My goal is to modify this trigger frame from SEF to ambidextrous while utilizing all factory internals. None of the internals are registered or serialized. Would this frame be a good candidate for this project?" If any complications were found, I wouldn't have bought the packs. Ironically, the ONLY complications I've come across for this SEF to ambi mod was with a couple DLO boxes, primarily because of the unfavorable engraving locations that they suffered from.

    Ultimately, all that matters to me is that the end result is factory spec FA transferable ambidextrous HK trigger frames that utilize all HK factory internals with flawless reliability without negatively affecting the original engraved LS logo/serials while also yielding aesthetically perfect specimens. I'll mail all 3 packs to the chosen gunsmith, and he need only to duplicate what has already been done for the previously converted ambi LaFrance pack.
    Quote Originally Posted by yammx125 View Post
    Neo what gunsmith u going with . I may get mine done too
    Seems like this was discussed thoroughly here https://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-nfa-ta...gger-pack.html and that in fact Tim La France used a Proprietary sear in his packs which tell me that you cannot legally take this back to factory specs to take all factory parts, maybe Tim could do this as he was original manufacture of the MG but letting another smith do this would constitute making a new machine gun by my interpretation of the law that Proprietary Sear has to stay with that registered pack. YMMV

    When your going from this Attachment 42235 to this Attachment 42234 that is a lot of metal to be replaced filled in then new holes drilled through new metal.
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  9. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neo-Geo View Post
    I can say that I've provided pics (both long side views) of the SEF LaFrance packs along with scans of the corresponding form 3/4s to the top HK gunsmiths, and my request was, "My goal is to modify this trigger frame from SEF to ambidextrous while utilizing all factory internals. None of the internals are registered or serialized. Would this frame be a good candidate for this project?" If any complications were found, I wouldn't have bought the packs. Ironically, the ONLY complications I've come across for this SEF to ambi mod was with a couple DLO boxes, primarily because of the unfavorable engraving locations that they suffered from.

    Ultimately, all that matters to me is that the end result is factory spec FA transferable ambidextrous HK trigger frames that utilize all HK factory internals with flawless reliability without negatively affecting the original engraved LS logo/serials while also yielding aesthetically perfect specimens. I'll mail all 3 packs to the chosen gunsmith, and he need only to duplicate what has already been done for the previously converted ambi LaFrance pack.
    What's at issue (and my question) is if the LaFrance registered pack utilizes a proprietary full auto conversion sear/catch. I've always "heard" they did. If so, that proprietary sear/catch has to carry forward with whatever work you have performed on the pack......otherwise, you create a 2nd MG when the pack is altered. Altered pack + non-serialized conversion sear = 2 machine guns.

    It's the same reason the BATF disallowed "drilling the hole" after 1986 on RR clip-on guns.....receiver with hole drilled is a MG and the unserialized conversion sear/catch is a machine gun. 2 machine guns.....BATF sees that proprietary conversion sear/catch as a machine gun, not unlike a non-serialized slotted Uzi bolt, etc. etc.

    Just because a C2 did or will do the work you request doesn't mean it's not technically afoul of the regs -or- will damage future resale value of your pack. Lotsa old school guys did lotsa things back in the day that don't exactly pass muster today.

    If the LaFrance pack uses a factory HK sear/catch -or- the proprietary sear/catch is utilized in the ambi/4-position pack, you're good!
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjrphs View Post
    What's at issue (and my question) is if the LaFrance registered pack utilizes a proprietary full auto conversion sear/catch. I've always "heard" they did. If so, that proprietary sear/catch has to carry forward with whatever work you have performed on the pack......otherwise, you create a 2nd MG when the pack is altered. Altered pack + non-serialized conversion sear = 2 machine guns.

    It's the same reason the BATF disallowed "drilling the hole" after 1986 on RR clip-on guns.....receiver with hole drilled is a MG and the unserialized conversion sear/catch is a machine gun. 2 machine guns.....BATF sees that proprietary conversion sear/catch as a machine gun, not unlike a non-serialized slotted Uzi bolt, etc. etc.

    Just because a C2 did or will do the work you request doesn't mean it's not technically afoul of the regs -or- will damage future resale value of your pack. Lotsa old school guys did lotsa things back in the day that don't exactly pass muster today.

    If the LaFrance pack uses a factory HK sear/catch -or- the proprietary sear/catch is utilized in the ambi/4-position pack, you're good!
    This ^^^^^^ I sure would not want to be caught with a pack that had been taken back to "Factory Specs" by some Smith...... if I owned one I would just convert it to Ambi from the Semi version it was made in..........

  11. #100
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    Totally. So, I could be at the range and the officer inspects my ambi pack and says, "Well well, what do we have here? Son, this looks like a LaFrance pack, and I know for a fact that all 138 registered LaFrance packs used unmarked, non-serialized sears. I know this because I was a range officer in Hollywood and was held accountable for all things transferable. An unmarked, non-searlized sear best be in there or else." Rest assured, I have zero doubts that any and all future range officers will only find unmarked, non-serialized sears within my LS packs. Now if someone wants to swap in a marked and serialized sear into their pack, that's their prerogative.

    Regarding LS packs, its fascinating yet not surprising that we're seeing support from the LS pack owners and dissent from the DLO pack owners.

    Undecided on which gunsmith I'll be using, have months to decide since I won't be submitting the form 4s until the 1st week of July. Going to let plenty of time pass to let the form 3s resolve and then file all the form 4s in one batch for these 2016 NFA stamps.

    Known gunsmith options for the SEF to Ambi mod:
    • Lowest price, go with TPM, they charge $350.
    • If you want 2nd best price, Michael's Machines $500.
    • TSC Machine for $2,500.
    • Despite tons of references for DLO to SEF to ambi moded packs by RDTS, Ralph says he's never done this mod personally, they were all outsourced to Don Quinnell, Fort Myers, FL.
    • Dakota Tactical is no longer offering this mod service.
    • Perhaps the most appropriate would be Tim LaFrance for LS pack mods.
    • Then there's the legendary Terry Dyer. He's backed up 3 years, cost is unknown, so that's probably who I'll be using.
    Last edited by Neo-Geo; 05-03-2016 at 04:24 AM.

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