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Thread: Sear vs DLO? Information sought

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neo-Geo View Post
    Totally. So, I could be at the range and the officer inspects my ambi pack and says, "Well well, what do we have here? Son, this looks like a LaFrance pack, and I know for a fact that all 138 registered LaFrance packs used unmarked, non-serialized sears. I know this because I was a range officer in Hollywood and was held accountable for all things transferable. An unmarked, non-searlized sear best be in there or else." Rest assured, I have zero doubts that any and all future range officers will only find unmarked, non-serialized sears within my LS packs. Now if someone wants to swap in a marked and serialized sear into their pack, that's their prerogative.
    Wow. Please forget anything I wrote. Carry on!
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  2. #102
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    LOL, my thought exactly.


    Quote Originally Posted by Neo-Geo View Post
    Totally. So, I could be at the range and the officer inspects my ambi pack and says, "Well well, what do we have here? Son, this looks like a LaFrance pack, and I know for a fact that all 138 registered LaFrance packs used unmarked, non-serialized sears. I know this because I was a range officer in Hollywood and was held accountable for all things transferable. An unmarked, non-searlized sear best be in there or else." Rest assured, I have zero doubts that any and all future range officers will only find unmarked, non-serialized sears within my LS packs. Now if someone wants to swap in a marked and serialized sear into their pack, that's their prerogative.

    Regarding LS packs, its fascinating yet not surprising that we're seeing support from the LS pack owners and dissent from the DLO pack owners.

    Undecided on which gunsmith I'll be using, have months to decide since I won't be submitting the form 4s until the 1st week of July. Going to let plenty of time pass to let the form 3s resolve and then file all the form 4s in one batch for these 2016 NFA stamps.

    Known gunsmith options for the SEF to Ambi mod:
    • Lowest price, go with TPM, they charge $350.
    • If you want 2nd best price, Michael's Machines $500.
    • TSC Machine for $2,500.
    • Despite tons of references for DLO to SEF to ambi moded packs by RDTS, Ralph says he's never done this mod personally, they were all outsourced to Don Quinnell, Fort Myers, FL.
    • Dakota Tactical is no longer offering this mod service.
    • Perhaps the most appropriate would be Tim LaFrance for LS pack mods.
    • Then there's the legendary Terry Dyer. He's backed up 3 years, cost is unknown, so that's probably who I'll be using.

  3. #103
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    Notice that I didn't say anything about swapping a sear out. I don't have these packs on hand nor do I have any pics or videos of any disassembled LS packs that I've purchased. My moded ambi LS pack was bought on the premise that it contains all factory internals, and I'm confident that my local SOT won't be receiving 2 machine guns from this single form 3 transfer. Regardless of whether the gunsmith deems that the original SEF sear must be used or not, its my understanding that any solution will contain an unmarked, and non-serialized sear, hence everything that I said holds true/legal.
    Last edited by Neo-Geo; 05-03-2016 at 05:07 AM.
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    Check cleared 7/18/2016. Approved 6/16/2017. Stamps delivered 7/6/2017.

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  5. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjrphs View Post
    Wow. Please forget anything I wrote. Carry on!
    Quote Originally Posted by coolhand View Post
    LOL, my thought exactly.
    You guys should have given up long ago on this one....

  6. #105
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    I think the confusion here is the mixing of the issue of converting from SEF to ambi, and the type and location of the auto sear (or "catch"). Both LS and DLO can be converted from SEF to ambi, and back from ambi to SEF without issue - leaving aside some number of DLO packs with markings near the selector axle hole. But for simplicity we will set those aside.
    The location and type of auto sear is the more significant issue. The LS implementation - with the conversion device being a sear that operates in semi packs while the registered item is the trigger frame (or box) means you have to pay attention in any modifications or repairs not to separate the two items. A DLO box does not have this issue, but how much that adds to the perceived value of the DLO implementation is a pretty subjective issue. I don't see it as a issue of taking "sides," they are different ways of getting to the same place and it is interesting (to me) how and why the conversions were implemented. I think the history is very interesting on all conversions.

  7. #106
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    Value is determined by what the next guy is willing to pay for it. If new machine guns we're available today to everyone, yours would be worthless.

    ...I can't believe you guys are still carrying on about this. Either way, it been both informative and entertaining.

  8. #107
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    I don't see it as an issue of taking sides either but I do like to be informed if I am buying........... look at the issue of a Registered Sear in Push Pin Lower host I would hate to be the buyer who was thinking he was getting a Sear/host combo thinking I could move from host to host only to find out only way I could do it was destroy host and divorce Sear I want that info as an informed buyer...............



    Taken from our own World of HK The Complete Reference on the Legal NFA Conversion of HK Firearms - Into the murky depths


    "Through the Glass, Darkly.

    With these NFA conversions employing a gun receiver with the Title I style clip-on style trigger group attachment point there remains a very tempting trap awaiting those whom would knowingly or unknowingly slip into it. Why this is may not be readily apparent, and even then there remains some stubbornness in accepting the legalities of the current situation regarding this. The desire to update their gun with a newer style plastic “Ambidextrous” or “2-shot/3-shot Burst” style trigger group remains almost universally strong among current owners, however there needs to be issued one final warning regarding doing this.


    The ONLY LEGAL WAY to install a newer style “Ambidextrous” or “2-shot/3-shot Burst” style trigger group is can be mated to function in the “Ambidextrous” or “Burst” trigger pack mechanics. This means you must discard the factory “sear (‘catch’)” that came in the new pack and affect installation of the original registered or unregistered conversion “sear” that was utilized in the original fire-control pack. Some few proprietary “sear” designs can be adapted to fit and made to properly function, most can’t.

    As detailed earlier, the conversion pack frame itself has to have been altered to fit the clip-on semi-auto receiver, while having the new style plastic housing adapted to fit the clip-on receiver, and then “blocked” to prevent re-installation of an original select-fire trigger pack. Now often enough this is done with the newer style plastic S-E-F housings which are essentially identical in function to the older style metal S-E-F versions, and this poses no legal problems by doing so. Because most of the “direct replacement” style conversion sears are modeled after the friction sear found in the factory original metal or plastic housing style S-E-F trigger groups, adapting just the plastic housing presents no mechanical problems.

    The legal and mechanical problems arise when we are trying to adapt a newer style “Ambidextrous” or “2-shot/3-shot Burst” style trigger group. And there is a very good reason not to simply go ahead and have such an adaptation performed by simply discarding the originally installed conversion pack and clipping on a newly adapted one. The mechanics of the Ambidextrous or burst trigger groups are VERY different than the standard S-E-F type of fire control pack, with many of the component parts totally redesigned to properly function with the burst counter clockwork mechanism installed. Ambidextrous style trigger groups only offering selective, but not burst, fire modes are also arranged identically and so suffer this same problem. H&K GmbH actually offered two very distinct styles of “burst” mechanisms. The first version externally resembled the S-E-F type of housing and located the burst clockwork mechanism in the rear lower portion of the pack frame. This is significant as it left the front ‘catch’ position identical to the S-E-F fire control pack!! This means that this style burst pack, and only this style, can be readily adapted to function with those conversion sears resembling externally the factory friction catch!! These very rare fire control packs command an extreme premium in today’s market as they can be easily adapted to function with the most common versions of conversion sears, and the market for using them to install registered conversion sears primarily, is very strong. The second style of burst pack located the clockwork mechanism more toward the frontal region of the pack frame and this forced a complete redesign of the internal components. These new style burst packs cannot be easily or readily converted to use a NFA conversion sear!! Many styles of proprietary NFA conversion sears simply cannot be adapted to function without major mechanical redesign. Due to this fact, there is a large temptation to avert the hassles in doing so by simply adapting the entire trigger group and exchanging it on a “Registered Receiver” guns’ receiver that formerly used an unregistered conversion sear. Attempting to do so leaves one extremely vulnerable in a legal sense.

    One must remember that when doing semi-auto conversions was a lawful enterprise, there were not that many shops actually performing these jobs, and the vast majority of guns converted were done by a relative few. It became quickly known which shops preferred to do which manner of conversions, and by what methods they commonly converted these guns, so a savvy ATF Field Agent can easily tell if a particular gun should have come with a particular type trigger housing, or fire control pack, etc. Also, the easy availability of the “new style” Ambidextrous/Burst trigger groups today was not the case even a few short years ago, so the likelihood of one having been originally installed is not too great. BE FOREWARNED!! And be fully prepared to PROVE that your “Navy Group”, or “Burst” trigger group now residing on your clip-on style “Registered Receiver” conversion gun contains, and has been adapted to function with, the original unregistered conversion part that the gun came with..........and yes, it HAS happened.

    “Losing” the original fire control pack, and its’ original unregistered conversion part, for a newer Ambidextrous/Burst style trigger group is a good way to lose the whole expensive gun......and possibly more.

    So..Now you know!"
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  9. #108
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    Hey NEO... question for you. You gonna shoot those packs or put them up for a couple years and then sell them all and make a hefty profit on them? I'm betting the latter esp given the success you've had in other collectibles. How did you first discover the mysterious world of registered sears anyway?

    I'm just curious and am not judging you for such mind you. It's just not often that someone enters the HK MG world and bites off such a chunk as you did. And I'm guessing you have been going only for sears/packs and not building up host guns (German or otherwise)?

    Sears/packs have obviously been a great investment over the years, accelerating over the last 7 years especially it seems. With a fixed supply and some disposable cash and appetite for risk (legal risk - Hughes risk, etc) it's certainly been better than say equities or other publicly traded assets. The major issue with sears-as-investments is the poor liquidity of them...well perhaps that applies to the buyer (you these days) on the front end as you pay now and then wait a LONG time before actually owning it, etc. From a sellers point of view it's quite liquid. I'm sure I could sell my sear at FMV within a few hours if I desired and have cash in hand.

    Just curious. And you certainly shouldnt feel the need to respond if you prefer.

  10. #109
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    Houston - I'm pretty sure he bought that MP5K-N package off of James, complete in fitted Pelican case.
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  11. #110
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    I bid on Marine0303's MP5SD too that sold for the low $9k range, but was outbid by $25, or whatever the minimum increment was. Still banging my head on the wall over that one. Next time I'm not sleeping in, snooze you lose. Last emailed James a premium 5 figure offer for it in the event that the high-bidder wants to back-out or if form 3 doesn't approve. Having new one built by RDTS for now, then will have to track down that Pelican case and try to emulate that bundle so that all will be right in the world again.


    Will respond to Houston's inquiry in detail later this evening! No plans to sell in < 2 years tho. Kinda doubt we'll see fast monster returns from this point unless we get Zimbabwe style hyperinflation.



    Last edited by Neo-Geo; 05-04-2016 at 04:18 AM.

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