Has Anyone Made The Roller Mechanism Work With Another Firearm Family? - Page 4
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Thread: Has Anyone Made The Roller Mechanism Work With Another Firearm Family?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottinthegrove View Post
    Personally, I have found that the greater the mass moving in the gun, the more the gun tends to move while being fired. Especially when the mass of the bolt is a higher percentage of the entire mass of the gun. The AR, as an example, in 5.56X45 has around the came mass in the bolt group and buffer as the X3 series (53, 33K, 33) roller locked guns. To me the real difference is in pistol caliber. The bolt group and buffer of the blow back 9mm AR is much heavier than the MP5 9mm bolt group. Why, because the MP5 bolt group diverts some of the recoil energy into the receiver. So the MP5 9mm bolt group is much lighter.

    I'm fortunate to own both a Fleming HK sear and a DIAS. I have tried about every product under the sun to get my blow back 9mm Colt system as smooth as one of my 9mm roller locked clones with the HK sear. So that got me thinking, is there another transferable firearm family that uses the roller locked system?

    For the sake of argument, SIG does make a pistol caliber piston system that has a lightened bolt group. Problem is they didn't put it in an AR. They put it in a proprietary AR style firearm. But since it is not in the same family, that upper can't just be used on a Colt style 9mm lower. Yes a FNC could be adapted. But that would require making a FNC complete 9 mm version from scratch. I hear that Spike's Tactical has a new semi auto system that uses a rotary lugged bolt. But instead of the back of the bolt lugs and the inside of the barrel extension has lugs that are square at an angle. he pistol is new and proprietary

    The roller locked system is is off patent. It works well. So instead of reinventing the wheel, I thought adapting the off patent roller locked mechanism to another mechanism that is propriety. I certainly think the roller locked mechanism improves function compared to blow back.

    Scott
    Why couldn't you use an FNC autosear and to build an MP5 compatible fire control? Is that illegal?


    But what I really don't get is why building a gas driven 9mm AR would present any real problem. Use a shorter gas tube, cut the buffer weight, etc. Sounds like something that a tinkerer could figure out over a long weekend.

    Even building a gas delayed AR upper sounds like less work than creating a roller locked AR.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Handy View Post
    Why couldn't you use an FNC autosear and to build an MP5 compatible fire control? Is that illegal?
    Just to be clear, a machinegun conversion device must be used with the receiver from that family of firearms. So an AR Lightning Link can not be made to function in a HK 94 and a HK sear can not be used in an AK receiver. The FNC has a similar layout to an AR. Problem is a FNC sear must be used with a FNC receiver. The top part (upper) is the firearm in a FNC. The FNC is 5.56X45 only. So a complete 9mm conversion would need to be made. Not only would a 9mm conversion be made but it would need to fit in the unaltered FNC receiver. That conversion would also need to be DI, piston, or roller locked to do what I'm looking for. That all sounds like an enormous amount of design and manufacturing for a limited market. It is my understanding there were only 5,000 semi auto FNC guns imported and about half that # of FNC sears.

    Quote Originally Posted by Handy View Post
    But what I really don't get is why building a gas driven 9mm AR would present any real problem. Use a shorter gas tube, cut the buffer weight, etc. Sounds like something that a tinkerer could figure out over a long weekend.

    Even building a gas delayed AR upper sounds like less work than creating a roller locked AR.
    To my knowledge no one has gotten a 9mm Luger (9X19mm) DI upper to work in an AR with standard 9mm ammo. I have heard +P+ will barely run. 10mm AUTO and 7.62X25 will run in DI. There just isn't enough gas and dwell time for function with standard 9mm ammo. There has been several guys working on this for at least 10 years that I know of. 9mm Largo (9X23mm) has been made to function. I bought a .45 DI upper six or seven years ago. It runs on the ragged edge. When it is clean the bolt/carrier group can go back far enough to strip a round from the modified Thompson mag in the center of an AR style magwell. But the bolt carrier group doesn't go back far enough for the bolt catch to work. The gas port is like 1" from the chamber. The powder is still burning when the DI piston is activated. With such a big bore the pressure drops very rapidly. At about 300 rds, it is dirty enough that it won't run a whole 30 rd mag. If it could be done in "over a long weekend", it would have been done years ago. There is a specific forum for pistol caliber ARs at ar15.com.

    To me the key is a firearm family that the lower part is the firearm, like the AR or MAC style RR or you have to make the parts fit the receiver of guns like an Uzi. It would also seem to me that it would be much easier to use or modify "off the shelf" parts than designing all new parts. Think of how difficult building an MP5 style roller lock, if HK had never built the MP5. If 53 parts needed to be adapted for pistol caliber use. It could be done, but it would not be easy. But those part are on the shelf.

    I think most would agree that the MP5 is the top of submachinegun development. Submachineguns have been replaced by very short barreled medium caliber firearms. Here in the US there are no "new" designs available as transferables ended in 1986. Why are HK sears and trigger frames at the top of transferable rifle, carbine, or subgun? They work well and can be all of those things plus it has multiple caliber belt fed options. The reason why I brought up the M16 and MAC style RRs is I think both could be converted to roller locked pistol caliber function the easiest as the "upper" would have no restrictions of shape. The pistol caliber roller locked mechanism and I think would be a step up for both of those firearm platforms. HK sears are great. I feel fortunate that I own one. But with a $30,000+ entry fee, I'd think adapting the mechanism that makes a HK sear fire would improve those other platforms at least in the pistol caliber. YMMV.

    Scott
    Last edited by scottinthegrove; 08-31-2017 at 12:15 AM. Reason: Quote

  3. #33
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    I don't understand how you can say that a sear must be used in the same "family of firearms" and then talk about building a full auto roller AR. I can't find any regulations restricting the sear host.

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  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Handy View Post
    I don't understand how you can say that a sear must be used in the same "family of firearms" and then talk about building a full auto roller AR. I can't find any regulations restricting the sear host.
    The ATF has made numerous rulings to that effect. Those rulings may be based upon administrative law instead of statutory law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Handy View Post
    I don't understand how you can say that a sear must be used in the same "family of firearms" and then talk about building a full auto roller AR. I can't find any regulations restricting the sear host.
    The difference in a roller AR is that you are just changing the upper, not the lower (which the ATF deams the firearm). So just like you can have piston driven ARs and not just DI, you should be able to have a roller AR, as long as it works with an unaltered lower.

    The HK sears and trigger packs get hindered because they are conversion devices that are not part of the actual receiver, so that's the reasoning the ATF used in shutting down things like the MGA SAWs (which are basically M240s and M249s that use HK trigger groups). It's the same thing that prevents the use of HK sears in any semi-auto UMP guns.

    Don't ask for logic, it's the ATF.

  7. #36
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    A machinegun conversion device (a registered sear) is made for a specific "family" of firearms. A receiver for a MP5K, full size MP5, 53, 91, and 21E all use the same fire control. A roller locked sear can be used in a modified fire control group that can be used with any one of those receivers. A FNC sear can be made to work in a FN SCAR, but the receiver (the actual firearm) of both of these rifles is different. So the SCAR would need to be modified. Now if FN had used the FNC receiver for the SCAR, then the FNC sear would probably be able to be used in the SCAR .

    As PP, an AR can have direct impingment, long stroke, short stroke piston in open or closed bolt rifle , and blow back and DI pistol caliber. It is likely I left out one or two more. Why, because these mechanisms can be used without any permanent alterations to the receiver. I'm sure the long stroke piston system could be used with a roller locked receiver. Some slight permanent modifications to the receiver could be done. If a trunnion was made that fit the roller locked receiver with AK features that an AK barrel could be pressed into, I would think the AK long stroke piston system could be adapted to function. Valkyrie Armaments required modifications to the magwell to install their belt feed module. Such modifications require submittal to the Firearms Technology Branch. I would think if slight modifications had to be done to the roller locked receiver and therefore a HK sear could be used.

    It would seem to me an "upper" with the roller locked mechanism could be submitted to the FTB for both the AR and the MAC style RR. Personally I think the pistol caliber roller locked mechanism is about the best pistol caliber me mechanism available. So why not spread the HK roller locked "love" to other firearm platforms?

    Scott
    Last edited by scottinthegrove; 08-31-2017 at 06:33 PM.

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