RE: RR question...... - Page 2
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Thread: RE: RR question......

  1. #11
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    @SudS @Tailflash you both make very solid points....which is why I brought it up. In the back of my mind, one "could" conceivably turn their MG into a burst, but as SudS says, you'd have to destroy the other frame, or as Tailflash put it....you'd have constructive intent.
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    It is my understanding that an unaltered semi auto receiver that is converted with an unregistered sear is a "collection of parts". As such, all the parts that together make the firearm shoot more than one round per pull of the trigger, a machinegun. Could the trip lever be replaced? Who would know if the trip lever was original? But if it could be proved that the trip lever wasn't original, how would the FTB view that?

    Could you replace the grip housing? Again, I don't know. Several manufacturers that did such conversions put their information on the steel grip housing instead of the receiver or barrel. All required markings on Title II firearms when they were originally registered must remain. Only the original serial # must remain on Title I firearms, but all original required markings must remain. So how would the FTB view that? With a market value over $25,000, I wouldn't want to risk that. YMMV.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tailflash View Post
    Or on the other hand, contemplate this... What prevents someone from completely destroying this trigger pack and then selling the registered serialized upper receiver by itself on GunBroker/SubGuns/etc., as a RR machine gun? It’s still a machine gun whether it has a trigger pack, bolt carrier, barrel, stock, etc., installed or not. The person who then legally purchases it (minus the trigger pack) can install any ‘friggin’ trigger pack they want to get it back into working order…or am I just missing something here?
    With a clipped and pinned RR HK (shelf gun)...what you postulate would put that individual RR HK into MG purgatory. It's still a papered MG, but without a legal pathway to restore its full auto function and remain transferable.

    In order to make that receiver into a working machine gun again, a full auto pack would have to be cut to fit the shelf or a conversion sear would have to be made to fit a cut / altered pack.

    Cutting an full auto pack to fit a shelf gun = creating a Post-86 machine gun

    Making a conversion sear to fit a cut / altered pack = creating a Post-86 machine gun

    Were it a push-pin RR HK...then there's not a problem, the buyer could just pick up a complete push-pin lower as it's simply considered a spare / replacement part.
    Last edited by jjrphs; 11-19-2017 at 01:38 AM.
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  5. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjrphs View Post
    With a clipped and pinned RR HK (shelf gun)...what you postulate would put that individual RR HK into MG purgatory. It's still a papered MG, but without a legal pathway to restore its full auto function and remain transferable.

    In order to make that receiver into a working machine gun again, a full auto pack would have to be cut to fit the shelf or a conversion sear would have to be made to fit a cut / altered pack.

    Cutting an full auto pack to fit a shelf gun = creating a Post-86 machine gun

    Making a conversion sear to fit a cut / altered pack = creating a Post-86 machine gun

    Were it a push-pin RR HK...then there's not a problem, the buyer could just pick up a complete push-pin lower as it's simply considered a spare / replacement part.
    And I think you just hit the proverbial nail on the head.....thus answering my question. Thank you sir!!!!.....unless anyone has objecting views???? I'm all ears.

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    So.......as I see it, and please correct me if I'm wrong as this is simply a question;

    If you have RR HK with a 0,1,A.......you CANNOT replace it with a burst pack (i.e., 0,1,3,full auto) without creating a "Post 86 MG"...............Correct?????????
    Even, if you end up destroying the 0,1,A pack......you have still created a post 86 MG.....which is not allowable to civilians??????????

    Thanks in advance for input.....just trying to stay out of the grey area here :-)

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    If one discarded the altered full auto pack for a shelf RR, then converted the RR to be a push pin, wouldn’t that be OK? Since the receiver was registered, accepting an unserialized or non papered conversion device does not sound like a proper conversion.

    If this is a legal gray area (the ATF specializes in this to suit themselves) then it seems to be one of those “they would never know” situations.

    As far as “constructive possession” if you have an AR pistol or registered SBR AR for example, and a number of spare short barrels and also happen to have title 1 ARs, that is not constructive possession. Or if someone has an unconverted long barrel SL8 and an SL8 G36 SBR conversion having spare short barrels and the means to change them does not constitute constructive possession because you have an argument of having the spare barrels to lawfully swap barrels on your registered SBR.

    I don’t see why having a spare fire control group pack fitted to your registered MG receiver is illegal because it is not the registered part and will work with your RR. Even if you have a semi auto HK that will accept the spare pack, you would not assemble them just like you wouldn’t throw a spare short barrel on an unregistered title 1 rifle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SudS View Post
    ... It is no different than having multiple sear ready lowers and only one sear. Even without a sear, those lowers are capable of full auto fire.
    Always puzzled at this theory... If you have only one RR gun and no other HK or clone platforms under the same roof, just exactly how could this second trigger pack be of any danger, even fire a single round, without having a second host to install it on? Perhaps if you threw it at someone with such force that it could hurt someone, then it might be considered a blunt force weapon...

    Situation at hand is hopefully he has a RR with a simple 0-1-A lower that was added, not a modified semi pack with some special tinkered-with trip sear trigger pack abortion that was common back in the day before S&H/Fleming last-ditch pre-May 86 sears were made. Regardless of how the trigger pack functions, it is the receiver which is registered, not the trigger pack; and I would bet that there is nothing on the Form 4 that states any different. Again back to what I earlier posted, think of this RR as just a hollowed out receiver shell with a barrel attached; this by itself is the machine gun and could be legally sold/transferred by itself. No different than a registered PP receiver which could be sold off gutted of all its parts as a hollow receiver with barrel attached... Just saying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad4065 View Post
    So.......as I see it, and please correct me if I'm wrong as this is simply a question;

    If you have RR HK with a 0,1,A.......you CANNOT replace it with a burst pack (i.e., 0,1,3,full auto) without creating a "Post 86 MG"...............Correct?????????
    Even, if you end up destroying the 0,1,A pack......you have still created a post 86 MG.....which is not allowable to civilians??????????

    Thanks in advance for input.....just trying to stay out of the grey area here :-)
    Not necessarily...depends.

    The original pack itself could be converted to a 4-position burst pack...just as some have converted their registered SEF trigger packs to a 4-position burst pack.

    A more controversial method would be to move the unserialized conversion sear from its original sear-altered pack to a sear altered 4-position burst pack. Some folks think this is completely fine and others do not.

    Cutting a 4-position burst pack to fit the shelf without altering it for a conversion sear is most definitely creating a Post-86 machine gun.

    There's more than a few C&P RR HKs with 4-position bust lowers out there...were I in the market for one, I'd want to make sure it retained the original conversion sear at a minimum.
    Last edited by jjrphs; 11-19-2017 at 02:23 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sweersa View Post
    If one discarded the altered full auto pack for a shelf RR, then converted the RR to be a push pin, wouldn’t that be OK? Since the receiver was registered, accepting an unserialized or non papered conversion device does not sound like a proper conversion.
    No...not ok to convert a C&P RR shelf gun into a PP RR gun. BATF ruled on this going on 30 years ago...drilling the hole creates a Post-86 machine gun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tailflash View Post
    Again back to what I earlier posted, think of this RR as just a hollowed out receiver shell with a barrel attached; this by itself is the machine gun and could be legally sold/transferred by itself. No different than a registered PP receiver which could be sold off gutted of all its parts as a hollow receiver with barrel attached... Just saying.
    Regardless of how you wish to say it or slice it...if it's not a PP receiver, there's no legal pathway for your theoretical RR shelf gun to be restored to full auto function and retain its transferable status...
    Last edited by jjrphs; 11-19-2017 at 02:24 AM.

  11. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tailflash View Post
    Always puzzled at this theory... If you have only one RR gun and no other HK or clone platforms under the same roof, just exactly how could this second trigger pack be of any danger, even fire a single round, without having a second host to install it on? Perhaps if you threw it at someone with such force that it could hurt someone, then it might be considered a blunt force weapon...

    Situation at hand is hopefully he has a RR with a simple 0-1-A lower that was added, not a modified semi pack with some special tinkered-with trip sear trigger pack abortion that was common back in the day before S&H/Fleming last-ditch pre-May 86 sears were made. Regardless of how the trigger pack functions, it is the receiver which is registered, not the trigger pack; and I would bet that there is nothing on the Form 4 that states any different. Again back to what I earlier posted, think of this RR as just a hollowed out receiver shell with a barrel attached; this by itself is the machine gun and could be legally sold/transferred by itself. No different than a registered PP receiver which could be sold off gutted of all its parts as a hollow receiver with barrel attached... Just saying.
    Help me here please.......let's say on a HK94, that has been converted to full auto, utilizing the existing trigger group, but adding the "A"....so it's now 0,1,A......what part "exactly" does the ATF consider the RR.....the MG??????

    Pursuant to @SudS comments......I "thought" that if we removed the pack, and "attempted" to replace that pack with a burst pack.......we then just created a post 86 MG....which is not allowable???? @sweersa I get what you are saying too. However {for example}..............If you have a SP89, a MP5K folding stock, and MP5K pistol grip.......you have constructive intent. Game over. On the other hand, I also understand what you're saying too.

    I don't expect to make sense of the circles that ATF confines us within....I'm just trying to stay within the legal realms of those circles.

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