RE: The SKY IS FALLING :-) - Page 11
Page 11 of 19 FirstFirst ... 9 10 11 12 13 ... LastLast
Results 101 to 110 of 184
Like Tree186Likes

Thread: RE: The SKY IS FALLING :-)

  1. #101
    Unrepentant HKHolic
    caf82313's Avatar
    Join Date : Apr 2014
    Location : Republic of Texas
    Posts : 4,905
    Mentioned
    108 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TheJerkman View Post
    Thank you sir! Seems a box would in theory Outlast a sear no?

    Sent from my SM-G988U using Tapatalk
    In theory yes but in reality I dont think you would wear either out especially the Top 3 Sears..................
    TheJerkman and AutoLode like this.
    HK HK HK HK HK HK HK .. U.S.A Hidden Content Senior Airman CAF 2-12-89__8-23-13

  2. #102
    Unrepentant HKHolic
    SudS's Avatar
    Join Date : Jan 2001
    Location : Northern, VA
    Posts : 8,265
    Mentioned
    155 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TheJerkman View Post
    Excuse my ignorance but does that pack mean if the sear were to break you could always get another $5 piece of metal to get it running again? I'm over in NY so my experience with Sears is zip with no hope unless I move out of state

    Sent from my SM-G988U using Tapatalk
    With this specific manufacturer’s registered pack (but not necessarily other brands), you can replace any or all internal parts. That said, the sear (which I believe HK calls a catch) is not going to break, barring some catastrophic event.
    caf82313, TheJerkman and AutoLode like this.

  3. #103
    Unrepentant HKHolic
    SudS's Avatar
    Join Date : Jan 2001
    Location : Northern, VA
    Posts : 8,265
    Mentioned
    155 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TheJerkman View Post
    Thank you sir! Seems a box would in theory Outlast a sear no?

    Sent from my SM-G988U using Tapatalk
    In reality, under normal usage, that could be an issue for your great-great-great-grand-children. But, by then the bigger issue will probably be the legality of owning such items (or the platforms to which they attach).
    caf82313, TheJerkman and AutoLode like this.

  4. Remove Advertisements
    HKPro.com
    Advertisements
     

  5. #104
    Desperately Needs Treatment
    rickj1nd's Avatar
    Join Date : Mar 2011
    Posts : 1,379
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)

    Default

    I got into my DLOs for $17.5K plus the cost to have them converted to Ambi/Navy and Ambi/Burst. I also bought a new $28K truck years ago that I eventualy took to the salvage yard leaking oil, broken exhaust and rusted to hell. Did I cry all the way to the salvage yard? Nope! It served its intended purpose and was never an investment. Would I cry if HK conversion device value, en masse, declined or softened? Nope! I use them often and have let many, many people shoot them. They are serving their intended purpose.
    Contrary to popular belief, some people don't look at everything in life as an investment or second guess everything we do based on a "return value". Honestly, I wish everyone could have the chance to become a responsible, law abiding machinegun owner. For that dream... I would gladly "give up" the non-intrinsic value premium that I paid for these stamped sheet metal boxes.
    You read that correctly... Gladly.

  6. #105
    HKPRO PREMIUM PARTNER
    Player_To_Be_Named...'s Avatar
    Join Date : Nov 2012
    Location : Sunny, sunny O-H-I-O
    Age : 62
    Posts : 1,532
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Machineguntony View Post
    Apologies for not answering quicker.

    As to the question that was asked, it’s already been answered by other posters who are also in the know oh this topic. But the TL;DR is that a number of the LaFrance boxes were altered from their original design. That introduces uncertainty into the market; markets do not like uncertainty and will discount as a result.

    My personal experience, having made a deal with Frank G for a similar box is that you cannot replace the internals and turn it into something that is like a true full auto box, like a DLO. NeoGeo, the gentleman who converted a number of the LaFrance boxes, did so on the word of someone who is allegedly an ATF agent. The more prudent way would have been to get a letter from ATF asking if conversion is permissible and to keep that letter with the box. That’s not the way it was done, so now quite a few buyers who would normally be interested in LaFrance boxes will not get near them.
    Thank you, Tony, for the explanation. I too was a bit fuzzy on the exact nature of the concerns...
    NRA Benefactor Member
    NFATCA Member

  7. #106
    HKPRO PREMIUM PARTNER
    jjrphs's Avatar
    Join Date : Sep 2007
    Posts : 226
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by caf82313 View Post
    Okay just curious as you had answered a Question that hadn't been asked...........
    But in posting that Form 4 the way (you?) marked it up, there was an implied question. I inferred you were asking for thoughts on whether the Form 4 represented a registered sear or registered pack and I answered appropriately. Back to the basics...the Form 4 could not be more clear that what's registered is a conversion sear...as indicated in Box 4b. You indicate you know what 4b & 4h represent and their importance, yet you "assumed" the sear had to be "proprietary" to the pack. Nope...registered conversion sears stand on their own and are not married or "proprietary" to anything...the only exception I'm aware of are the rare Vollmer PP registered sear guns. Do you also assume that a Fleming H sear is "married" to its pack? If not, why assume such here? The info listed in 4h on this form 4 is meaningless and possibly placed there to mislead a future buyer or cover up inappropriate alteration to the registered part (machine gun sear). It goes without saying that I would not be interested in this particular setup and would warn off anyone who asked for my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by caf82313 View Post
    I think it Matters to a Whole lot of people how its represented in the Sale, I get it you understand, but does everyone?
    No disagreement there...but you missed the point. To the point of what this device actually was (as defined by BATF) at the time of its creation/registration and its legitimacy as it physically exists now in comparison to that BATF definition only matters to what's in 4b.

    Quote Originally Posted by caf82313 View Post
    What is your opinion of the Ambi/Burst La France "Packs"? There is a legitimate no pot stirring question for you
    Historically, BATF has been absolutely clear that it is a complete NO-NO to alter a registered part where an unregistered conversion part is orphaned. Some examples would be converting a RR Uzi with slotted bolt to full MG spec...leaving an unregistered slotted conversion bolt, drilling the hole to convert a RR Clip-on lower HK to RR PP HK...leaving an unregistered conversion sear and converting a LaFrance pack to accept all factory parts...leaving an unregistered conversion sear.

    By having those packs converted to take all factory parts...IMO, NeoGeo ruined the future value of those packs at best and made them vulnerable for confiscation at worst. Ruining their future value is probably what he has the most to worry about. Neo (naively or stupidly) chronicled and posted everything about alteration of these packs -and- his acquisition of the M4 - Commando Enhanced...which has its own set of issues. Along with many other "voices of reason" telling Neo altering those packs that way, was not kosher...at one point I suggested to him in a post that it would be in his best interest to just stop posting and enjoy his acquisitions in anonymity. IIRC, did he not also put together a "packet" detailing the "what and how" of altering those packs and sent that along with the Form 4s for approval?...and then assuming because some contract employee (who probably didn't even look at the extraneous and irrelevant information) didn't dis-approve the Form 4s and that somehow validated the packs? The only way those alterations get validated is via determination by Tech Branch...not a field agent's opinion or the examiner processing the transfer.

    My honest opinion is Neo did some dumb stuff and did so in the dumbest way possible.
    Last edited by jjrphs; 04-28-2020 at 07:23 AM.
    Browning, Maxim, Vickers
    Belt-Fed & Water-Cooled
    Real Machineguns

  8. #107
    Unrepentant HKHolic
    caf82313's Avatar
    Join Date : Apr 2014
    Location : Republic of Texas
    Posts : 4,905
    Mentioned
    108 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jjrphs View Post
    But in posting that Form 4 the way (you?) marked it up, there was an implied question. I inferred you were asking for thoughts on whether the Form 4 represented a registered sear or registered pack and I answered appropriately. Back to the basics...the Form 4 could not be more clear that what's registered is a conversion sear...as indicated in Box 4b. You indicate you know what 4b & 4h represent and their importance, yet you "assumed" the sear had to be "proprietary" to the pack. Nope...registered conversion sears stand on their own and are not married or "proprietary" to anything...the only exception I'm aware of are the rare Vollmer PP registered sear guns. Do you also assume that a Fleming H sear is "married" to its pack? If not, why assume such here? The info listed in 4h on this form 4 is meaningless and possibly placed there to mislead a future buyer or cover up inappropriate alteration to the registered part (machine gun sear). It goes without saying that I would not be interested in this particular setup and would warn off anyone who asked for my opinion.



    No disagreement there...but you missed the point. To the point of what this device actually was (as defined by BATF) at the time of its creation/registration and its legitimacy as it physically exists now in comparison to that BATF definition only matters to what's in 4b.



    Historically, BATF has been absolutely clear that it is a complete NO-NO to alter a registered part where an unregistered conversion part is orphaned. Some examples would be converting a RR Uzi with slotted bolt to full MG spec...leaving an unregistered slotted conversion bolt, drilling the hole to convert a RR Clip-on lower HK to RR PP HK...leaving an unregistered conversion sear and converting a LaFrance pack to accept all factory parts...leaving an unregistered conversion sear.

    By having those packs converted to take all factory parts...IMO, NeoGeo ruined the future value of those packs at best and made them vulnerable for confiscation at worst. Ruining their future value is probably what he has the most to worry about. Neo (naively or stupidly) chronicled and posted everything about alteration of these packs -and- his acquisition of the M4 - Commando Enhanced...which has its own set of issues. Along with many other "voices of reason" telling Neo altering those packs that way, was not kosher...at one point I suggested to him in a post that it would be in his best interest to just stop posting and enjoy his acquisitions in anonymity. IIRC, did he not also put together a "packet" detailing the "what and how" of altering those packs and sent that along with the Form 4s for approval?...and then assuming because some contract employee (who probably didn't even look at the extraneous and irrelevant information) didn't dis-approve the Form 4s and that somehow that validated the packs? The only way those alterations get validated is via determination by Tech Branch...not a field agent's opinion or the examiner processing the transfer.

    My honest opinion is Neo did some dumb stuff and did so in the dumbest way possible.
    This is the best Post I have seen you make to date!!! That is a real contribution to the HK Community Thank you. My whole point and only point to starting the Sear/Pack Info thread was to HELP inform people as I believe there has been a whole lot of misinformation propagated out there. The very nature of this particular thread "Sky Falling" and who started it was Pot stirring from beginning between @Brad4065 Suds and myself from many many previous posts threads but the reason it started had nothing to do with what you and I are discussing. Yes the two subjects kinda got mixed in here but nothing about the Packs and the Sears that I post is intended to stir the Pot in an inflammatory way at All!!. I will address some more of what you wrote later.
    AutoLode and Brad4065 like this.

  9. #108
    Unrepentant HKHolic
    SudS's Avatar
    Join Date : Jan 2001
    Location : Northern, VA
    Posts : 8,265
    Mentioned
    155 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Player_To_Be_Named... View Post
    Thank you, Tony, for the explanation. I too was a bit fuzzy on the exact nature of the concerns...
    From what I have seen from the pictures posted here, not only have internals changed, so have the boxes themselves. Steel apparently added to the front of the box, sear holes moved. If that is the case, muy bad ju-ju.

  10. #109
    Unrepentant HKHolic
    caf82313's Avatar
    Join Date : Apr 2014
    Location : Republic of Texas
    Posts : 4,905
    Mentioned
    108 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jjrphs View Post
    But in posting that Form 4 the way (you?) marked it up, there was an implied question. I inferred you were asking for thoughts on whether the Form 4 represented a registered sear or registered pack and I answered appropriately. Back to the basics...the Form 4 could not be more clear that what's registered is a conversion sear...as indicated in Box 4b. You indicate you know what 4b & 4h represent and their importance, yet you "assumed" the sear had to be "proprietary" to the pack. Nope...registered conversion sears stand on their own and are not married or "proprietary" to anything...the only exception I'm aware of are the rare Vollmer PP registered sear guns. Do you also assume that a Fleming H sear is "married" to its pack? If not, why assume such here? The info listed in 4h on this form 4 is meaningless and possibly placed there to mislead a future buyer or cover up inappropriate alteration to the registered part (machine gun sear). It goes without saying that I would not be interested in this particular setup and would warn off anyone who asked for my opinion.
    The reason I had asked if it was Proprietary was because of the La France Packs having a Proprietary "Unserialized" Sears yet were marked LS on them. Then I saw on the Form 4 that the Alltech was actually marked Machine Gun Sear and yet I knew 2 had been advertised as "Trigger Packs" I have NO idea what those Form 4's say but I can only assume they are much like the copy of the Form 4 we do have access too. And if not and they are in fact trigger packs then I would again assume they have proprietary sears by the Geometry I am looking at. That is why I asked if anyone had a picture of an Alltech Sear.......I would just like to see a pic whether its serialized or not. And again look at how these 2 are being Advertised. Just seems to me there are more questions than answers with some of these packs.................
    HK G3, Excellent w/Registered Trigger Pack Alltech / Terry Dyer - NFA Market Board - Sturmgewehr.com Forums
    WTS HK ALLTEC REGISTERED TRIGGER PACK - NFA Market Board - Sturmgewehr.com Forums

    Here is another interesting one IMO:
    https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/...LOT476691.aspx
    AutoLode likes this.

  11. #110
    HKPRO PREMIUM PARTNER
    AutoLode's Avatar
    Join Date : Jul 2018
    Location : Payson AZ
    Posts : 339
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jjrphs View Post
    But in posting that Form 4 the way (you?) marked it up, there was an implied question. I inferred you were asking for thoughts on whether the Form 4 represented a registered sear or registered pack and I answered appropriately. Back to the basics...the Form 4 could not be more clear that what's registered is a conversion sear...as indicated in Box 4b. You indicate you know what 4b & 4h represent and their importance, yet you "assumed" the sear had to be "proprietary" to the pack. Nope...registered conversion sears stand on their own and are not married or "proprietary" to anything...the only exception I'm aware of are the rare Vollmer PP registered sear guns. Do you also assume that a Fleming H sear is "married" to its pack? If not, why assume such here? The info listed in 4h on this form 4 is meaningless and possibly placed there to mislead a future buyer or cover up inappropriate alteration to the registered part (machine gun sear). It goes without saying that I would not be interested in this particular setup and would warn off anyone who asked for my opinion.



    No disagreement there...but you missed the point. To the point of what this device actually was (as defined by BATF) at the time of its creation/registration and its legitimacy as it physically exists now in comparison to that BATF definition only matters to what's in 4b.



    Historically, BATF has been absolutely clear that it is a complete NO-NO to alter a registered part where an unregistered conversion part is orphaned. Some examples would be converting a RR Uzi with slotted bolt to full MG spec...leaving an unregistered slotted conversion bolt, drilling the hole to convert a RR Clip-on lower HK to RR PP HK...leaving an unregistered conversion sear and converting a LaFrance pack to accept all factory parts...leaving an unregistered conversion sear.

    By having those packs converted to take all factory parts...IMO, NeoGeo ruined the future value of those packs at best and made them vulnerable for confiscation at worst. Ruining their future value is probably what he has the most to worry about. Neo (naively or stupidly) chronicled and posted everything about alteration of these packs -and- his acquisition of the M4 - Commando Enhanced...which has its own set of issues. Along with many other "voices of reason" telling Neo altering those packs that way, was not kosher...at one point I suggested to him in a post that it would be in his best interest to just stop posting and enjoy his acquisitions in anonymity. IIRC, did he not also put together a "packet" detailing the "what and how" of altering those packs and sent that along with the Form 4s for approval?...and then assuming because some contract employee (who probably didn't even look at the extraneous and irrelevant information) didn't dis-approve the Form 4s and that somehow that validated the packs? The only way those alterations get validated is via determination by Tech Branch...not a field agent's opinion or the examiner processing the transfer.

    My honest opinion is Neo did some dumb stuff and did so in the dumbest way possible.
    wow fascinating insight on the whole Neo escapade which I have read several times because a forum member was selling a LaFrance trigger pack and it sounded like a great way to go. The seller sold the pack ($27k as I recall) so I never pursued the deal but I was interested in the 4 position mod as well but at this point I'd just leave the packs as LaFrance built them with zero mods or more likely just buy a sear or two

    PS; having moved from my previous lifetime in a Kommie USSA state I'm just learning the ropes on NFA here in the Southwest so all this info is wonderful !!!
    Last edited by AutoLode; 04-24-2020 at 10:53 PM.
    caf82313 likes this.
    The Song Remains the Same

Page 11 of 19 FirstFirst ... 9 10 11 12 13 ... LastLast

Sponsored Links

 
 

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •