RE: The SKY IS FALLING :-) - Page 12
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Thread: RE: The SKY IS FALLING :-)

  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by caf82313 View Post
    The reason I had asked if it was Proprietary was because of the La France Packs having a Proprietary "Unserialized" Sears yet were marked LS on them. Then I saw on the Form 4 that the Alltech was actually marked Machine Gun Sear and yet I knew 2 had been advertised as "Trigger Packs" I have NO idea what those Form 4's say but I can only assume they are much like the copy of the Form 4 we do have access too. And if not and they are in fact trigger packs then I would again assume they have proprietary sears by the Geometry I am looking at. That is why I asked if anyone had a picture of an Alltech Sear.......I would just like to see a pic whether its serialized or not. And again look at how these 2 are being Advertised. Just seems to me there are more questions than answers with some of these packs.................
    HK G3, Excellent w/Registered Trigger Pack Alltech / Terry Dyer - NFA Market Board - Sturmgewehr.com Forums
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    Here is another interesting one IMO:
    https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/...LOT476691.aspx
    I understand your questions...but for me, the paperwork is the deciding factor.

    Yes, it would certainly help clarify matters further to see both the sear this specific paperwork represents -and- another Form 4 example of an Alltech "pack" to see the 4b description.

    Absent that information, one could assume Alltech registered both sears and packs...just as did Ciener. It appears Alltech also fabricated sears with an integral trip just like Ciener as well. Did Alltech possibly register some of those sears? IMO, the paperwork indicates they probably did...
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    The paperwork matters, but not the paperwork in hand. What does the original paperwork say? ATF is looking at new transfers by going back to the original and looking for variances. If they don’t match, there could be an issue. It’s happened to me.

  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by caf82313 View Post
    This is the best Post I have seen you make to date!!! That is a real contribution to the HK Community Thank you. My whole point and only point to starting the Sear/Pack Info thread was to HELP inform people as I believe there has been a whole lot of misinformation propagated out there. The very nature of this particular thread "Sky Falling" and who started it was Pot stirring from beginning between @Brad4065 Suds and myself from many many previous posts threads but the reason it started had nothing to do with what you and I are discussing. Yes the two subjects kinda got mixed in here but nothing about the Packs and the Sears that I post is intended to stir the Pot in an inflammatory way at All!!. I will address some more of what you wrote later.
    Who me????!!!! Stirring a pot between you, me and @SudS ???? @caf82313 you can't seriously believe that
    You can't deny me the simple pleasure of being right....I mean that thing sold way low now.

    Carry on, and I'll go get my stir stick.
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  5. #114
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    Machinegun market has been soft for a few years now.

    And, with the state of the economy... everything that is a luxury is falling... Pateks, Audemars, G-Wagons, bottles of Willett, and yes... even machineguns. And, this is only the beginning. Can’t wait to take advantage of these down markets (being honest).
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  6. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breitling View Post
    Machinegun market has been soft for a few years now.

    And, with the state of the economy... everything that is a luxury is falling... Pateks, Audemars, G-Wagons, bottles of Willett, and yes... even machineguns. And, this is only the beginning. Can’t wait to take advantage of these down markets (being honest).
    Oh I agree.....look what I just posted in the "Heads Up" section. IF, it's factory correct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad4065 View Post
    Who me????!!!! Stirring a pot between you, me and @SudS ???? @caf82313 you can't seriously believe that
    You can't deny me the simple pleasure of being right....I mean that thing sold way low now.

    Carry on, and I'll go get my stir stick.
    lol......I'll give you that one......I personally know of a DLO that sold recently higher 30's so there's that too

    Quote Originally Posted by Breitling View Post
    Machinegun market has been soft for a few years now.

    And, with the state of the economy... everything that is a luxury is falling... Pateks, Audemars, G-Wagons, bottles of Willett, and yes... even machineguns. And, this is only the beginning. Can’t wait to take advantage of these down markets (being honest).
    So you ready to dump that G28 Clone then?
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    Quote Originally Posted by GPSIG View Post
    All LaFrance packs aren't the same any more, but according to LaFrance himself they all started out the same -- semi-auto packs paired with LaFrance's own design proprietary sear. That gives you 2 conversion devices in the view of the ATF, (1) the semi-auto pack with the selector stop modified to permit travel to full-auto position and of course the (2) proprietary sear. LaFrance serialized the modified semi-auto pack, I don't believe he serialized his proprietary sears.

    Some folks are of the opinion that you take one of LaFrance's packs, weld material into the lower front (like Neil Smith did -- but he did it at the time of registration so didn't end up creating 2 conversion devices) and move the sear axle. Now you can use all factory HK F/A parts. But that leaves the pesky issue of now having an extra conversion device on your hands. The folks who think this approach is okay "dispose" of the extra conversion device (the proprietary sear), and as Neo memorably suggested Dyer may have fed them to his dog. Splitting up conversion devices has been the topic of a lot of ink in the HK world given all the "registered receiver" guns out there with unserialized conversion devices attached to them.

    Neo had a relationship with his local ATF officials who, according to Neo, assured him that this approach was fine. I don't think he ever claimed to have the ATF Tech Branch sign off on the approach, but since life is all about paying your money and making your choices I recognize what he did is one way to get what he wanted -- 3 ambi HK trigger packs that used all factory internals. A more conservative approach to accomplish this would be to have 3 DLO packs modified for ambi, but Neo wanted to complete his project before the current trust regulations went into effect. Also, at the time he was buying, DLO packs weren't available directly from Doug, so you would need to source 3 of them from the market and for sure that would have made for a long project timeline.
    See Below



    Quote Originally Posted by jjrphs View Post
    I understand your questions...but for me, the paperwork is the deciding factor.

    Yes, it would certainly help clarify matters further to see both the sear this specific paperwork represents -and- another Form 4 example of an Alltech "pack" to see the 4b description.

    Absent that information, one could assume Alltech registered both sears and packs...just as did Ciener. It appears Alltech also fabricated sears with an integral trip just like Ciener as well. Did Alltech possibly register some of those sears? IMO, the paperwork indicates they probably did...
    Yep you are right I think a lot of us get focused on how it is being advertised myself included.



    Quote Originally Posted by SudS View Post
    The paperwork matters, but not the paperwork in hand. What does the original paperwork say? ATF is looking at new transfers by going back to the original and looking for variances. If they don’t match, there could be an issue. It’s happened to me.
    Exactly!!!!




    So here is the New Info I have to share. A friend/acquaintance who I trust shared some info with me and with his permission I have decided to share it here I have gone back and forth on whether to share but after consulting with several members it was agreed that it needs to be shared. It is not meant in anyway to "Stir" the Pot it is for informational purposes only as all my informational posts concerning Sears/Packs are, Anyway the gentleman was at the Fall Knob Creek shoot in 2019 and ran into Neil Smith and asked him about his HK Trigger Packs this is what was relayed to me Exactly:

    "I was at Knob Creek this past weekend and spoke with Neal Smith. I asked him about his trigger packs and he said he never registered any frames, only receivers. On some receivers he left the shelf, on others he drilled the pushpin. He said ATF has been inquiring of him whenever they get a transfer request for one of his frames, asking whether the rifle in which it was installed has a shelf or front pushpin. He said they are letting the transfers happen if the frame was installed in a rifle with intact shelf.


    So yes you are reading that correct Neil Smith NEVER registered any Trigger Packs he ONLY Registered Receiver Guns. My personal interpretation of what was relayed/said is that if it was a Shelf Receiver Gun they are allowing the transfer to happen but the collection of parts will be married to the gun again that is my interpretation/speculation I do not know much if anything about Reciever Guns @SudS and @jjrphs maybe can weigh in here with more valuable insight. I will be updating the Sear/Pack Info thread to reflect this new info: https://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-refer...-housings.html

    And to those who think ATF does not know whats going on with some of these MG's I can tell you I personally have spoken with another Old MG Smith that is consulting/working with ATF on transfers so my personal belief is that before anyone purchases a MG that you Know exactly what you are buying.
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    I “think” I have heard that some smiths had serialized converted packs with the serial number of the receiver. It has been said that ATF has allowed people to separate the pack from the receiver. I do not have direct knowledge of documentation from ATF allowing this separation. I guess in theory, even if the original smith who registered the weapon did not intend the pack to be the registered item, it all comes down to what ATF considers the registered item. Again, it may have to go back to what the original paperwork says and what ATF considers to be the registered item.

    Collection of parts, I have no clue. That one is on ATF. I could reasonably argue that either way. If a custom unserialized part breaks, can it be replaced? I would think so, as long as you don’t significantly alter the basic ATF approved design. You go in and start rewelding the original pack, remove propriety parts, and change basic geometry, not so sure that would fly. Again, All of this is just my speculation.
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  10. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by caf82313 View Post
    So yes you are reading that correct Neil Smith NEVER registered any Trigger Packs he ONLY Registered Receiver Guns.
    Wow, interesting. If true...I'd like to see more corroborating evidence such as a representative Form 4 and pics (serial #) of the receivers.

    The serial #'s on the NS packs I see are not HK serial #'s...which begs the question of, did NS renumber the receiver to the pack?

    If not...was it the fact the pack had a different / unique serial # (in Box 4g) from the receiver, the basis for BATF allowing the separation?
    Last edited by jjrphs; 04-25-2020 at 04:16 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SudS View Post
    The paperwork matters, but not the paperwork in hand. What does the original paperwork say?
    Absolutely...and for me that goes without saying. Part of my point was "paperwork high jinks" over time has allowed the exact "changes" and "inaccuracies" we're discussing now.
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