RE: The SKY IS FALLING :-) - Page 15
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Thread: RE: The SKY IS FALLING :-)

  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by straightgrain View Post
    Umm no. Let's start with the fact that under the current administration ATF is actually enjoined from issuing industry/community guidance. You read that right. Although that is not specifically what the White House told DOJ, it's what the DOJ has determined is the legal requirement of the edict. Guidance is considered the emplacement of a law or rule. And each time that is done, they have to revoke one. Absent a revocation candidate, no guidance. Witness the recent letter that went out to FFL's in regard to parking lot and drive-thru sales. It was positioned as a reminder of existing law and even went so far to say that the letter was not guidance. Oy.

    Next up, let's put in that ATF's role is not to offer legal advice to the general public. They will offer their opinion via the written inquiry, such as an FATD (used to be FTB) determination inquiry. But that is almost certainly not binding or applicable to anyone other than the recipient of the response letter.

    Lastly, I would remind folks that ATF absolutely does monitor most gun boards. As Suds has pointed out, screen caps of this forum have been used in site visits. So consider this a gentle reminder to not accidentally step on your self whilst opining in public.
    As always SG.....thank you for your words of wisdom and insight.

    Cheers!!!
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  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjrphs View Post
    Good post and good thoughts IMO. The reason I believe a different serial # on the pack does matter is that I know of at least one case where an AR15 (SP1) was converted (pre-86) with a DIAS which was serialized with the same # as the receiver and no other alterations to the AR15 receiver were made. Box 4b described the gun as "Machine Gun -or- Machine Gun Receiver" with DIAS info listed in 4h.

    The registrant petitioned BATF to separate the DIAS from the AR15 receiver and the request was denied. Why the request to separate? Because RDIAS' are worth waaay more today than a converted SP1 of course.

    To me...it's a much stronger argument to BATF that the pack alone, is in fact the controlled part with its unique serial # listed in 4g, than if both have the same # and 4b describes a "Machine Gun." In the above AR15 conversion scenario...BATF ruled the receiver was the controlled part and the serialized DIAS could not be removed.
    I wonder if maybe the difference here is the nature of the fire control parts in an AR and a HK gun. When you take the DIAS out of the AR gun, you still have a number of conversion parts in the gun, specifically the selector, hammer, trigger, and (arguably) the carrier. That is one of the reasons that a DIAS isn't as flexible as some folks think, you can't move it from gun to gun without a full change of the FCG and you can't leave F/A parts in multiple AR lowers. I wonder if you could get approval to destroy (rather than divorce) the host AR, and then just keep the DIAS.

    On the other hand, once you disconnect a trigger pack from an HK gun (with a shelf on it), everything on that HK gun is a Title I regular firearm. This is all tea-leaf reading, but the mechanics of each type of firearm conversion, added to the different sub-types in some families of firearms, make for a pretty complex matrix of options and issues.

    With all that said, I agree with you the likely foundation for the BATF ruling is how the original paperwork describes the conversion.
    Last edited by GPSIG; 04-27-2020 at 12:25 PM.
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  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottRod View Post

    Iím kicking around the idea of buying a DIAS right now but Iíve heard they have issues with timing and the trip. Just keeping my eyes open for more deals while the gettiní is good! I kick myself for missing out on the 26k S&H with the crap host. Probably could have flipped it for more at that price.
    I went with the original Colt M16A1 rather than a DIAS. I understand the attraction of the DIAS, but for me, the factory registered receiver was the way to go. Government Property marked was an added plus.
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  5. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottRod View Post
    I’m kicking around the idea of buying a DIAS right now but I’ve heard they have issues with timing and the trip.
    Don't believe everything you read in the internet. As a multiple RDIAS owner (of several different makes) for many years, I have never had to shim or adjust timing on any of them...all have been "drop in" and go. Also, it appears that RDIAS' seem to be holding their value as well as anything right now...if they were the fitment / timing nightmare the "internet" sometimes suggests, I don't believe their pricing would be holding steady at its level. Buy a steel RDIAS from a reputable manufacturer in confidence. The RDIAS is a great choice for the shooter and completely analogous to buying a registered sear or registered trigger box for the roller locked HK series.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScottRod View Post
    I kick myself for missing out on the 26k S&H with the crap host. Probably could have flipped it for more at that price.
    Though some will disagree...I agree with your earlier premise that package found that selling price because it wasn't a Fleming or Qualified sear. That ad was up plenty long enough for a lot of people to see...including those who would've considered flipping it. Oh...and as SudS mentioned earlier, welcome to the club.

    Quote Originally Posted by GPSIG View Post
    When you take the DIAS out of the AR gun, you still have a number of conversion parts in the gun, specifically the selector, hammer, trigger, and (arguably) the carrier.
    Except...those F/A FCG parts are no more "fixed" to the receiver in this scenario than the F/A FCG parts in one of my RDIAS host guns, if and when I decide to move the RDIAS. BATF doesn't mandate RDIAS' can't be moved around because of such. Sure...those F/A FCG parts have to come out, but that's pushing out (2) pins and removing the selector. A couple minutes work at most and easily performed at the range. It's even easier today with the drop-in modular FCGs. As far as carriers go...try to buy an off the shelf AR15 today which doesn't have a F/A spec carrier in it.

    Quote Originally Posted by GPSIG View Post
    I wonder if you could get approval to destroy (rather than divorce) the host AR, and then just keep the DIAS.
    Destroying the receiver was part of that request from registrant...BATF said "nope."
    Last edited by jjrphs; 04-27-2020 at 07:19 PM.
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  6. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjrphs View Post
    Don't believe everything you read in the internet. As a multiple RDIAS owner (of several different makes) for many years, I have never had to shim or adjust timing on any of them...all have been "drop in" and go. Also, it appears that RDIAS' seem to be holding their value as well as anything right now...if they were the fitment / timing nightmare the "internet" sometimes suggests, I don't believe their pricing would be holding steady at its level. Buy a steel RDIAS from a reputable manufacturer in confidence. The RDIAS is a great choice for the shooter and completely analogous to buying a registered sear or registered trigger box for the roller locked HK series.



    Oh...and as SudS mentioned earlier, welcome to the club.
    Thank you for the warm welcome to the world of transferables. Also, I appreciate the DIAS input. Iíll keep that in mind. More and more Iím leaning toward a DIAS instead of a RR M16, if I can actually find one for sale. The only one Iíve seen listed is a broadhead armory steel for 37k.

  7. #146
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    Oh wow, this thread reminds me of the great NeoGeo and has given me the giggles...again.

    I could sense his uber OCD and in his quest for LaFrance boxes I can clearly remember very descriptive sales transactions, cancelled money orders and phone call times TO THE MINUTE.

    Clearly one of our Top 10 celebrities at HKPro.

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    Quote Originally Posted by airforce1 View Post
    Oh wow, this thread reminds me of the great NeoGeo and has given me the giggles...again.

    I could sense his uber OCD and in his quest for LaFrance boxes I can clearly remember very descriptive sales transactions, cancelled money orders and phone call times TO THE MINUTE.

    Clearly one of our Top 10 celebrities at HKPro.
    I paid more attention to his audio system. Very nice equipment, too cramped for my taste, but worthy.

  9. #148
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    Most people seem to focus on price paid per device...rightly so. Reading threads like these makes me happier that I bought my DLO box directly from Doug than the price I paid. Direct provenance, filled out paperwork in his living room, and even got a tour of the gun shed.

  10. #149
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    Another cost justification perspective is price per FA mag dump. With ranges charging $40-50 plus the cost of ammo for a FA rental, if you can bring your costs below that, then I'd consider the purchase justified. This means at least 600 magdumps over the lifetime of ownership.
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  11. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hill Raiser View Post
    Most people seem to focus on price paid per device...rightly so. Reading threads like these makes me happier that I bought my DLO box directly from Doug than the price I paid. Direct provenance, filled out paperwork in his living room, and even got a tour of the gun shed.
    Same here. My DLO box was expensive but no regrets. Plug and play.
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