HK433 vs XM8 vs G36 Evolution - Page 2
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Thread: HK433 vs XM8 vs G36 Evolution

  1. #11
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    That's like saying the M16 was a flawed design.

    It did/ does have flaws. It was a very revolutionary design. It had big teething problems and bean counter problems. The jungle was an extreme environment. Everyone missed the M14. But 60 years on here we are.

    Until we get laser blasters....every weapon is a compromise. Cartridge, rate of fire, weight, reliabilty, accuracy, and above all, cost.

    The G36 is what HK built to get a Bundeswehr contract. It was rated higher than the other entrants. I'm sure they had a very rigorous and thorough testing procedure that included sustained full auto firing with accuracy being measured. Alot of things have been said about the issues, who fault it was, etc. But the fact is they got what they asked for for the price they wanted to pay and it didn't work as planned in EVERY conceivable situation. From what non-German Defense Ministry info I've read the G36s fired in full auto dont warp or melt and don't require major parts until a bazillion rounds. It really is a testament to HK innovation and quality (remember design began 1990). Many light barreled rifles are much less accurate when extremely hot this is not a groundbreaking or new discovery.

    The German army is not in great shape I'd be surprised if the G36 is actually phased out next year. I'm sure the paid for G36s I'm the rack are looking pretty sweet to the Ministry of Finance.

    The reason for 433 is I'm sure cost. I'm guessing its cheaper than a 416. It does multi cal change thing going for it I suppose but not sure in NATO countries that matters much. I also don't think HK is so worried about a Bundeswehr contract as much as they were in 1990.


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  2. #12
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    Well, if the G36 is so great, why design the 433 as basically a metal receiver version of it? I personally think that reports of the G36's overheating issues are probably exaggerated in an attempt to get 416s or something else into the hands of the German Army. We have to remember that the Beretta ARX-160 has about as much metal to polymer in it's receiver as the G36 and the Italian Army and others have had no complaints about it's performance, and it's more accurate than a lot of off the shelf M4s.

    Both Ian McCollum and Larry Vickers have made references to these issues in regards to the G36 and the XM8, and Ian especially has said that it does go both ways in that debate and he considers the G36 and XM8 to be good rifles.

    Fact is that HK do seem to be wanting to favor stuff like the 433 and 416 as they're seemingly a bit more modern than the G36, though they still produce and market the G36. So I'm guessing that reports about the G36's issues are probably exaggerated. Also, when used as doctrine until recent years recommends (mostly in semi auto), the G36 doesn't seem to have problems. That being said, the G36, at least in my opinion on the outside looking in, has some redundant features and some things that can be better integrated into a fresher design. Also, not every wants the AR-15 on steroids that the 416 is.

    I do wonder, though, how much of the issue surrounding the G36 is fact, and how much of it is conspiracy.

  3. #13
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    It has nothing to do with whether or not the G36 is “so great.” Any manufacturer who doesn’t bring new products to the table is likely to fall into obscurity.
    Brad4065, egroeg and Steve Shannon like this.

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    And yet the likes of FN and Colt are still selling M4s to anyone who wants them. The same M4 that aside from a shorter barrel and 1913 rails is the same basic design as the AR-15 was the designed back in the 1950s. Yes, I know that the AR-15 of today has evolved over the AR-15 of then, but it's still a 60+year old basic design. Also, the British are still using the SA80, a rifle designed back in the 1970s and was plagued with problems until HK took over the R&D helm on it, and are still improving it to keep it somewhat up to date.

    I also wonder how much of the 433's design is HK trying (albeit somewhat belatedly) to jump on the SCAR/ACR band wagon? This is in reply to the comment above about no matter how good something is, if it doesn't evolve at least to a point, it'll eventually get left behind. Which, ironically, is the point I'm trying to make. Obviously, HK designed the 433 because they feel it offers some at least advantages over the 416 and the G36. What they are and by how much is probably up for debate, though.

    Same with the MG5 GPMG. It obviously offers advantages over the MG3, or else I don't think HK would've designed it, let alone the German Army adopt it to largely replace the MG3.
    Last edited by BarnOwlLover; 09-16-2019 at 03:50 PM.

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    Colt is not "selling" alot of M4s to anyone except the DOD. If the M4 goes away, I think Colt will finally die.
    Last non-US contract I saw was for " essential diplomatic tools" to our Middle Eastern and Asian partners by whatever office in the Pentagon decides who we sell and/ or give arms to. $57,000,000 for 10,0000 M4s and parts.

    I don't think the G36 is "great" but the Germans no longer wanted the G3 and the 33 and 41 were rejected. The closest competitor to the G36 in trails was the AUG . Also the fall of the Soviet Union and the G11 cancellation so I'm sure R&D funds were tight so once again I think they did pretty good. Colt made....the M4.

    30 years makes things easier to see now. And of course they will still sell them if countries are still buying them.

    There are only so many ways to build a rifle. I think alot of governments feel there surely has to be something drastically better coming along. Maybe the NGSW/ CT ammo thing, maybe a something more advanced, I don't know.

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    Then one can say why spend money and time developing a new rifle if you're HK (or anyone else right now, for that matter) knowing that it's only god knows what NATO will do and when if the US Army adopts a new round, be it something like SIG's 6.8mm round (a high powered intermediate round based broadly on the .308 Winchester/7.62mm NATO casing with a .270/6.8mm bullet) or the caseless or telescope cased round developed for the LSAT rifle and LMG program. Of course, who know if any of this will even go anywhere. Every attempt to replace the M16/M4 has largely failed, at least on the US end. Mind you, that's because even though stuff like the SCAR and the XM8 and such do have advantages over the M16/M4, it wasn't massive enough to warrant spending a lot of time, money and energy to replace them as general issue.

    Only thing I can think of with the 433 being designed by HK and being offered to the German Army is that the German Army basically wants a rifle with HK416 performance, but less expensive and with some of the better features of the G36 (folding stock, paddle mag release, forward mounted charging handle, etc). And they probably want the rifle to be an evolutionary step ahead of the now nearly 25 year old G36. I can also see HK wanting to also throw their hat into the SCAR/ACR ring with a new rifle, too.

    We also have to remember that the Russians are still upgrading and modernizing the AK-system rifles rather than getting something completely new, though I think that the AM-17 (mass produced version of the Dragonov MA) in the form of a full sized rifle probably has more of a future than AK in theory does. However, I'm not the Russian bean counters. Hell, if it wasn't for the German Gov't's and the German Army's bean counters, they G36 probably would've been replaced with the 416 a long time ago.

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    I hope I dont get hammered for this but ....I have noticed that when firing the G36 your head is more exposed over bore then any rifle I own . I guess that would make you more exposed/easy to hit out in the field . I guess thats just not talked about .

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    Quote Originally Posted by 94tonka View Post
    I hope I dont get hammered for this but ....I have noticed that when firing the G36 your head is more exposed over bore then any rifle I own . I guess that would make you more exposed/easy to hit out in the field . I guess thats just not talked about .
    Yes, I’m sure it is a real danger.

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