German Government Chooses Haenel’s MK556 over HK416/HK433 -- HK's response - Page 2
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Thread: German Government Chooses Haenel’s MK556 over HK416/HK433 -- HK's response

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by AGG View Post
    Vote the bums out!!!

    Tony
    That’s too funny the only option to vote the current conservative led government out would be to get a mid-left led very left government with the left party (direct successor of the East German governing socialist party)
    Or a conservative probably green led government which is probably the most conservative coalition except when it comes to military and environmental policies...

    Here are two key factors that led to the decision, Haenels offer for the first lot was 52 million cheaper over lifetime that’s significant considering a ~250mio volume... there is no way this wouldn’t have become an issue with the budget commission and watchdogs...
    HK has been bragging about having more orders than they can fulfill... that caught attention


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  2. #12
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    I thought the fines for the Mexico deal got suspended. Anyway, this story isn't over.
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  3. #13
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    Default German Government Chooses Haenel’s MK556 over HK416/HK433 -- HK's response

    Quote Originally Posted by HKPRO View Post
    I thought the fines for the Mexico deal got suspended. Anyway, this story isn't over.
    No the court ruling is in effect. Since this was a lower court the ruling takes a while to become effective because there is the legal option to call on a higher court for either re trail or re judgment. But HK had to pay 3.7mio and the individuals got their time on probation...
    This is a rather low ruling for a serious offense like this was so I assume they didn’t take their chances of challenging the ruling or had some sort of deal...
    just in comparison I know someone who got charged with a similar offense in the US but for a handful controlled items, no weapons/firearms though and he is facing 35y in federal prison... and 1mio+ fines...

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    Last edited by JimKnopf; 09-16-2020 at 01:29 PM.

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  5. #14
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    I also wonder if the 433 being so modular actually worked against it here? That amount of modularity would appeal to LE/commercial/spec ops, but might have been too much of a good thing for a GI rifle. The similarly modular FN SCAR has had much more success with that crowd than as a GI rifle (only Belgium and Portugal use it for general issue), the Bren 2 is used by the Czechs, Slovaks and Hungarians, but those are armed forces going from 7.62x39mm to 5.56mm NATO (and the caliber change feature is desirable there), IWI are marketing the Carmel and Arad to the LE/commercial/spec ops crowd, and so on.

    Also remember the Concamo/UFPro shoot with the 433 and the 416A7/G95. It was almost like the 433 was being shown as a SCAR alternative for spec ops in that shoot. From that technical standpoint, even if the 433 is reliable and such (which I no doubt believe it is), could it just have too many options that are of much use for the average foot infantryman? Not to mention that such changes are supposed to be user level, too...

  6. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by BarnOwlLover View Post
    I also wonder if the 433 being so modular actually worked against it here? That amount of modularity would appeal to LE/commercial/spec ops, but might have been too much of a good thing for a GI rifle.
    Think of LE as GI in that one must be blessed, anointed and certified to make the limited amount of modifications allowed by policy (if any). Much like big army can't trust Private Schmuckatelli with anything; LE brass won't leverage liability for anything and holding to mfg standards is like some mythical safety blanket that will always insulate them from litigation. Makes sense with those countries you listed given their location and their being position between Com-bloc and NATO options. The use of 7.62x39 is not as critical for the US. I can't speak for special operations, but from what I have gleaned from some sources directly involved it is more flexible than GI, but still much less flexible than what the general public assumes.

    Modularity has rarely been exploited when it's an option anyways. People get this fantasy that several entities have this "arms room" concept and can do as they please. I hear all the time about "What if SWAT guy can pull his 10.4" barrel and replace it with an 18-20" DMR barrel with the push of a button when he needs it". That sh!t won't happen. In the real world, snipers can't even transition between ammo lot numbers without a re-qual in most cases.

    The best you'll ever see is the swapping of built-out uppers.

    Commercially speaking, I see modular designs becoming more popular. It probably got lost in the shuffle, but MRP and MWS uppers got snatched up quick. Makes more sense now if the current climate becomes the new norm that switch-caliber is an option.
    Last edited by dms16; 09-16-2020 at 04:56 PM.
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  7. #16
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    I think the decisions for this kind of a cash cow are far more a result of political issues and relationships, and have less to do with the actual guns, as opposed to the people in the back halls and scratched backs. I know next to nothing about Haenel. I don't know what their production capacity is, but I do know HK has the production capacity to make 120,000 units. At one time they were making 2,000 G3s a day. That's not the size of this order, but I have my doubts about Haenel's ability to spool up. Time will tell.
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    Not to get political, but all the speculation about civilian channels for HK gear may well be a moot point after January of next year if things don’t go favorably for our interests. Vote early and vote often, as they say in Cook County.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HKPRO View Post
    I think the decisions for this kind of a cash cow are far more a result of political issues and relationships, and have less to do with the actual guns, as opposed to the people in the back halls and scratched backs. I know next to nothing about Haenel. I don't know what their production capacity is, but I do know HK has the production capacity to make 120,000 units. At one time they were making 2,000 G3s a day. That's not the size of this order, but I have my doubts about Haenel's ability to spool up. Time will tell.
    Haenel in 2018 had 9 employees and 500k loss but Suhl to firearms building is like glashütte for watchmakers. There has been / was a plethora of firearms fabricators and suppliers like Menz, Simson, Merkel (which Haenel belongs to)... exporting hunting rifles from Suhl to the west was a profitable foreign currency income business for the German Democratic Republic. And I’m sure there are plenty of well trained industrial mechanics and some old very experienced gun smiths and engineers in that area. They have been shipping some decent amounts of their semi automatic version to law enforcement in Germany in the past couple of months already so it’s not ground Zero...
    I assume Haenel will just be the Brand and merkel will produce... they make some killer hunting guns...

    Like I said HK has been at least bragging with the fact that they have more orders than they can fulfill... and not sure if G3’s from back them is really a benchmark, different times, stamped metal...


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    Quote Originally Posted by JimKnopf View Post
    Haenel in 2018 had 9 employees and 500k loss but Suhl to firearms building is like glashütte for watchmakers. There has been / was a plethora of firearms fabricators and suppliers like Menz, Simson, Merkel (which Haenel belongs to)... exporting hunting rifles from Suhl to the west was a profitable foreign currency income business for the German Democratic Republic. And I’m sure there are plenty of well trained industrial mechanics and some old very experienced gun smiths and engineers in that area. They have been shipping some decent amounts of their semi automatic version to law enforcement in Germany in the past couple of months already so it’s not ground Zero...
    I assume Haenel will just be the Brand and merkel will produce... they make some killer hunting guns...

    Like I said HK has been at least bragging with the fact that they have more orders than they can fulfill... and not sure if G3’s from back them is really a benchmark, different times, stamped metal...


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    For sure, Jim. Not trying to compare apples to oranges, and the G3 is easier to make than the 416. I can't help but think that there are issues that said, let's not go with HK this time. 1959 to now is long enough.

  11. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by HKPRO View Post
    For sure, Jim. Not trying to compare apples to oranges, and the G3 is easier to make than the 416. I can't help but think that there are issues that said, let's not go with HK this time. 1959 to now is long enough.
    The issue is 52mio euro 1/5th of the contract price... that’s how much cheaper they were there...


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