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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYC_FA View Post
    Now its been three months and still not a word from anyone. No letter, no phone call, nothing.
    You can always give them a call and ask about the status. But usually the process is a little long, so I'd give them a week or two more. They'll tell you the same thing on the phone that the process takes 6 months. It's just a waiting game.
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    Default Positive Experiances and Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by NYC_FA View Post
    Now its been three months and still not a word from anyone. No letter, no phone call, nothing.
    That is a normal so do not worry and just relax. Do not be antsy about it just wait until they contact you with a letter or with a phone call if they require clarification or additional documents. When you get the letter in the mail it will have a nice blue City of New York logo in the corner of the envelope so you'll know when you have reached the next step. It will come one day so let that be a pleasant surprise to you.

    The people working in the licensing office are quite nice to deal with and understandable when it comes to small issues and missing or incorrect paperwork. They are not vindictive and they do not arbitrarily decide to reject your application because of clerical, paperwork, or other issues, they will contact you first to get clarification and will guide you on how to successfully resolve issues, even very serious ones involving prior criminal records, arrest warrants, bench warrants, etc. Unlike what you hear, you still qualify for a permit with a minor criminal record as long as you have no felonies and no misdemeanors of domestic assault.

    Since a lot of this thread reads like the doom and gloom of NYC licensing I want to write a few good things from my and other people's real life experiences with licensing.

    Experiences

    Pleasant Interview

    During my interview process the officer was very nice to me and asked me standard questions that were already answered on the application, my name, address, occupation, purpose for the firearm, my plans for storage of firearms (unloaded and locked), and the alternate location for storage while away (mother's house). The officer let me verify everything that was entered into the computer to ensure that it is correct. The interview was very quick and even then I had enough time for some questions and chit-chat about the licensing process. She was very pleasant and informed me that in a few months I will be receiving a follow-up letters informing me of their decision.

    Clerical Errors Fixed

    Another example on my first permit, the old green paper permits, the issuing officer made clerical errors on the makes and models of my first firearm twice in a row and I had to wait an additional hour at the office and give two additional photos for the permit to be issued but the officer did the work ahead of the line of other people who were waiting for their paperwork since she felt bad about making the mistakes and apologized for this. Now the issuing system is computerized and automated so any license additions or replacements are just a few keystrokes away and then the Print button.

    License Replacement with a Smile

    When the city changed the permit format from paper to credit card sized plastic with nice logo and color coding of license type they had problems with the system and the printing machines. Many of the licenses issued in the beginning had a problem with the ink that was sprayed on the back of the license where the registered firearms have their serial numbers written so after a while the serial numbers would rub off even while the license was never removed from the wallet. Obviously if your serial numbers were rubbed off and unreadable on your license and you were stopped by police or checked at the range for sales you would be in quite a bit of trouble being unable to prove the ownership of your firearms.

    Well, I went to the office to see if I could receive a replacement license and that day the office was processing retired officers for their licenses so the little waiting room was full. When I asked the officer behind the desk about having my license replaced she said that if I wait an hour or more they would take care of me after all these other officers were processed or I could just stop by tomorrow. I decided to stop by the next day and handed the license to a different officer. She saw the problem and went back inside the office and was back again in 5-minutes with my new license in hand. She also brought out some clear tape and put a strip of it over my serial numbers on the back to prevent them from rubbing off again because she was aware of this problem. I had to pay nothing and the whole process was quite quick and with a smile.

    Nice Collections of Pistols

    A person that I know has a quite nice collection of very nice pistols of all various kinds, many dozens of pistols, many more than that magic number 4 that requires a safe afterwards. Well when the original paper permit system was being out phased into a computerized system the new plastic license does not have enough space on the back to hold the full list of pistols so the officer printed another blank plastic license with the additional serial numbers. It looks very nice and it is impressive. Since the collection is always growing the issuing office just keeps adding additional pistols to the license. So you see there is no arbitrary magic number of firearms that you can own.

    Felony Arrest Warrant

    A person that I have known personally who applied for a permit was contacted a few months after the application was sent it to come down to the office due to the existence of a felony arrest warrant for drug trafficking for their person matching their name and birth date. The person went down to the office and after an hour of checking the computer systems and clarifying the issue it was found that the warrant was accurate but that it was issued to another person with the same exact name and birth date as this person but the investigating officer was prudent enough to perform thorough checks and found that the social security number and place of birth of the two people did not match so he clarified the issue. Because of this event and the inconvenience the investigating officer was nice enough to perform and complete the other investigatory checks and this person received their premise permit in 4-months only. A record time according to all the people and dealers that I know.

    Missing or Incorrect Paperwork

    Many people, including myself, have been contacted by the pistol and rifle licensing offices during their application process with requests for additional, missing, or incorrect paperwork. Every time that a clerical issue like that comes along the office sends out a request for additional information with a list of issues and documents to submit by mail or person (mostly in-person). So if you make an error or forgot something from your application don't worry about being denied, they will contact you to get the information or paperwork. The issuing officers almost sound like they want to give you a permit since they are so nice about guiding you through the process successfully.

    Sometimes the requests are arbitrary, such as in my case, I submitted the signed and notarized letting affirming my compliance with all laws for my rifle permit but I had to resubmit the same exact letter again during my application process since the one included in my application packet was old and was not printed on the blue City of New York letterhead paper. But this is just a minor hick-up in the process that just cost me some time to send the letter.

    Issues

    Purchase Authorizations Every 90-days (~120-days Realistically)

    However, recently the city council passed a much unwelcome city ordinance that limits firearm purchases, handguns and long guns, to every 90-days and the licensing office is now strictly enforcing the ordinance by limiting the Request for Purchase Authorizations to 90-days after the registration of the previous pistol. The issuance of a Purchase Authorization after completing the Request for a Purchase Authorization has now been effectively lengthened to 2-3 months of time instead of the previous 1-2 months, making the 90-day limit effectively an approximate ~120-day limit on purchases when you include the delays between the request, the issuance, and registration.

    Previously before the ordinance the office would issue a Purchase Authorization 4-8 weeks after 30-days from the previous Request for Purchase Authorization.

    No Concealed Carry Permits for People

    Also, there is no CCW (concealed carry weapon) permits issued to ordinary people in in NYC. They are only issued to armed security guards for usage during work, to state licensed Bail Enforcement agents, and for businessmen who transport more than $10,000 in cash or valuables to the bank daily.

    New York City Permits and Members Welcome!

    There is a country wide misunderstanding of the firearm licensing process in New York City and everyone has the impression that getting a license here almost impossible and too difficult to attempt. The process is long and requires a lot of paperwork but it is not difficult and it is entirely navigable by the average person with a little bit of reading, writing, and determination.

    There is quite a substantial firearm enthusiast culture here in the city and the five boroughs. There are shooting ranges a plenty in all boroughs and new members are always welcome. There are local range competitions in all five boroughs of the city and plenty of friendly people to meeting and interact with.

    The nice people that I have met at the range and that I see almost every week have all been great and now they are my second group of friends to hang out with.

    While I wrote some of these positive experiences I just want to clarify that I am in no way justifying or defending the licensing process in any way, I find that the fees and licensing times are too high and too long and the passage of the 90-day waiting period is an arbitrary and ineffective measure. The people that work in the licensing office are very good and do their work thoroughly and they are helpful, it is the process and the laws that have problems and create issues.

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    holy cow! Thanks for the detailed info! Yeah the process is fairly tedious. At least once you get this, getting the longbarrel license is easy. They gave me mine in only 4 weeks.

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    Thanks for the positive update! I have to admit, every day when I come home from work to flip through my mail I get a little giddy. I'm always thinking... "Is today the day?". So I know when it does come I'll be psyched. I'm sure everyone that works there is more then reasonable and It's important to remember they didn't make the laws they are just doing their job. Looking forward to joining West Side and meeting everyone when it's all said and done.

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    You know, I filed for the permit and a few months later, completely forgot about it. Then I get the letter in the mail to pick it up and I was really surprised. Just be patient, focus on other things and it'll come through. Then it is time to shop! Look forward to seeing you at the Westside Range.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYC_FA View Post
    Thanks for the positive update! I have to admit, every day when I come home from work to flip through my mail I get a little giddy. I'm always thinking... "Is today the day?". So I know when it does come I'll be psyched. I'm sure everyone that works there is more then reasonable and It's important to remember they didn't make the laws they are just doing their job. Looking forward to joining West Side and meeting everyone when it's all said and done.
    And when you do come say hi to all of us there. Crestfallen, IronChef, Tastysp, and a few others, including myself. ;) We're all family!

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    Default Aiken, burglary and porches

    Quote Originally Posted by MueveloNYC View Post
    What are NY's Laws on use of Deadly Force?
    Note: This is a very gray area of the law - always use caution and only resort to deadly force if your life is in immediate jeopardy.

    N.Y. Penal Law 35.15.1:


    N.Y. Penal Law 35.20:



    Note that if defending yourself from an attack or burglary, if you retreated to your home safely - stay there and call the police. Do not escalate the situation by leaving your home and going after the aggressor. Such was the case of The People vs. Hernandez, who was found guilty of manslaughter since he shot him in the "common area" after he had safely retreated to his home (within his 4 walls), after being attacked, where he went back to confront the aggressor with a gun and shot him. The link below also provides direct links to the NY Penal laws on use of deadly force and cites other recent cases, so it's a good reference.

    People Vs. Jose Hernandez:
    http://www.law.cornell.edu/nyctap/I02_0075.htm

    Duty to Retreat:
    NY State requires duty to retreat whenever possible, EXCEPT in one's own dwelling. (35.15.2(a) - listed above) - This does not give you to right to shoot anyone in your home! It is only of a last resort if you are under immediate danger/duress

    Note that there was a case People vs. Aiken, where a man tried to enter a person's home. The owner shot him in the apt. doorway that separated his apartment and the hallway. Because the actual doorway was considered not his dwelling, being outside the walls of his apt. He was convicted of manslaughter.

    http://www.stjohns.edu/academics/gra...-1/delpozo.stj


    Court summary of this case is available here:
    http://www.law.cornell.edu/nyctap/I05_0039.htm

    So as you can see, use of deadly force can still result in conviction, so only use it as an absolute last resort. (kick, push, ram the person out of your dwelling if you have to - only use deadly force if you have no choice...). The statute says it's justifiable in one's dwelling to prevent a burglary, but remember - you have a good chance of it going to court where that burden of proof will be on you if you shot someone.

    Again, I stress that this is not legal advice, nor is this information to be construed as condoning/supporting/promoting use of deadly force. This is presenting some of the facts as they are. It is ultimately up to you to make your own conclusions, research, and make your own decisions on your own legal council or policy.

    Does NY Have Castle Doctrine?
    No. However, note the above laws on use of deadly force in a dwelling - however it's restricted to your dwelling (ie: within your walls and not in any common space such as the doorway) and a burglary is in progress. There have been many cases of deadly force being used in those cases of home invasions, however, almost all went to a grand jury for a review. Again, express extreme restraint in using deadly force and only resort to it only in the absolute need where there is literally no other option.

    NY Self-Defense Blog:
    http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefe...labels/NY.html


    Hello everyone, I would like to thank Muevelo and everyone else for all the incitefull posts and I also wanted to add some info I went accross online:

    This may be relevant to Muevelo's excellent post quoted above, which I feel is very accurate on the law:

    1) For homeowners, it is worthwhile noting that in People v. Prince (2008 Slip Opinion) on appeal, modifies the law on the doorway entrypoint from that in Aiken for the sake of finding that a burglary was in progress.

    THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK, Respondent, v TYLER L. PRINCE, Appellant. (857 N.Y.S.2d 320)

    The facts were: "Defendant, who was 15 at the time of the incident, allegedly stabbed the victim in the head as she stood inside the doorway to the enclosed porch of her home"

    and the outcome: "Defendant asserted on appeal, inter alia, that the evidence was legally insufficient to establish the entry element of burglary in the first degree as he never entered the victim's home. On appeal, the court affirmed, noting that the entry element was satisfied when one intruded within a building, no matter how slightly, with any part of his or her body"

    Here is the discussions on the entry element of burglary:
    "Defendant argues that the evidence was legally insufficient to establish the entry element of burglary in the first degree because he never entered Allen's home. In particular, citing People v Aiken, he claims that an assaultive act occurring at the threshold of a dwelling does not constitute burglary. Defendant's reliance on Aiken is unconvincing as that case addressed the duty to retreat before using deadly force and in no way implicated or called into doubt well-settled precedent pertaining to entry for the purpose of committing burglary. Indeed, the Court of Appeals has held that the entry element of burglary is satisfied "when a person intrudes within a building, no matter how slightly, with any part of his or her body" (People v King, [1984]). Notably, this Court has held that the act of kicking in a basement window was sufficient evidence of an entry for the purpose of establishing a burglary (see People v Cleveland, [2001], ldenied [2001]). The Fourth Department has similarly held that reaching a hand through a broken window is sufficient evidence of an entry into a dwelling (see People v Clarke, [1996],; see also People v Fraticelli, 172 AD2d 622, [1991]. Additionally, this Court has held that an enclosed porch qualifies as part of a dwelling for purposes of residential burglary (see People v Rivera, 301 AD2d 787, [2003]


    Now, being that the elements of burglary are :
    (1) the breaking and entering of a dwelling or place of business
    (2) with the intent to commit a crime therein.
    (3) It is not required to occur at night.

    Of course to have burglary you will need intent, and you still must retreat into your home, but this does make burglary easier to prove, which in my layman's opinion has an effect on the rulling of Aiken that the intruder did no wrong at the doorway. Also, if there is burglary at the doorway and then the intruded follows you in, it would seem you are justified unless you are the aggressor. Its not much, but it is something.


    I have to agree with Muevelo on the gray area being the intent of the intruder. If a case was actually brought by a prosecutor, in order to defend, one would have to show that either 1) the intruded had intent to commit some crime (robbery, assault etc) or 2) one had a reasonable fear of imminent deadly harm to himslef or someone else. (Goetz)

    In theory this should not be so hard to prove, (say if the guy had a knife or already took something from your closet, etc) but I concede that in reality, I would not want to be in that type of a situation. Hence I will have to once again agree with muevelo. Don't do it unless you have no choice.

    If I sound like I am contradicting myself, its becasue in my opinion, in the event of an incident, not all is lost. There is some hope, but on the other hand, I would not wish upon anyone to be in a situation where they would have to find out just how good their chances are.

    Having said that using deadly force should ONLY be a last resort, once an intruder is inside your home and poses a threat, i am not sure I would wait and see what his intentions are. I would think that the intruded has made his decision when he broke in. No reason why a jury should not agree.

    On a completely seperate note, I think Massad Ayoob's book is an excellent read on the topic of self deffense and home deffense. It covers various legal topics as well as prepares you for the thought process. Granted the book is a old, but I still think its worthwhile to hear it from a cop that has been in tough situations.

    http://www.amazon.com/Gravest-Extrem...ref=pd_sim_b_1

    All of the above is nothing more than MHO and comments are welcome.

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    Default More Aiken, justification and burglary.

    Here is some more info.

    Not sure if anyone saw this, but its a good read on Aiken.

    http://www.stjohns.edu/media/3/cb3e0...5b6a82c3b7.pdf

    It's too bad that people think this way, but its good to know anyway...


    ---------------------
    Here is some info on Justification in general:

    From: People v. Fermin, 828 N.Y.S.2d 546 (on appeal), this was a shooting case outside the home.

    In order to establish a justification defense under Penal Law § 35.15(2), the evidence must show that a defendant reasonably believed that he or she was in imminent danger of being subjected to deadly physical force and that he or she had satisfied his or her duty to retreat or was under no such duty. Penal Law § 35.15(1), (2). The duty to retreat does not apply when one cannot retreat from the use of deadly physical force with complete safety. Penal Law § 35.15(2)(a).

    The duty to retreat does not apply when one cannot retreat from the use of deadly physical force with complete safety (see Penal Law § 35.15[2][a]; People v Aiken, 4 N.Y.3d 324, 328, 828 N.E.2d 74, 795 N.Y.S.2d 158; People v Goetz, 68 N.Y.2d 96, 104, 497 N.E.2d 41, 506 N.Y.S.2d 18 n 4).

    Can you believe they are still citing Goetz? I can not believe that crazy SOB still has an impact till this day?!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjF5ccIrP8Q

    ---------------------------------
    In NY, Burglary is an important part of justification when inside your home:

    Here is the statute regarding justification in a home when a burglary is being commited:

    § 35.15. Justification; use of physical force in defense of a person

    1. A person may, subject to the provisions of subdivision two, use physical force upon another person when and to the extent he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to defend himself, herself or a third person from what he or she reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force by such other person, unless:

    (a) The latter's conduct was provoked by the actor [fig 1] with intent to cause physical injury to another person; or

    (b) The actor was the initial aggressor; except that in such case [fig 1] the use of physical force is nevertheless justifiable if [fig 2] the actor has withdrawn from the encounter and effectively communicated such withdrawal to such other person but the latter persists in continuing the incident by the use or threatened imminent use of unlawful physical force; or

    (c) The physical force involved is the product of a combat by agreement not specifically authorized by law.

    2. A person may not use deadly physical force upon another person under circumstances specified in subdivision one unless:

    (a) [fig 1] The actor reasonably believes that such other person is using or about to use deadly physical force. Even in such case, however, the actor may not use deadly physical force if he or she knows that [fig 2] with complete personal safety [fig 3] , to oneself and others he or she may avoid the necessity of so doing by retreating; except that [fig 4] the actor is under no duty to retreat if he or she is:
    (i) in his or her dwelling and not the initial aggressor; or
    (ii) a police officer or peace officer or a person assisting a police officer or a peace officer at the latter's direction, acting pursuant to section 35.30; or

    (b) He or she reasonably believes that such other person is committing or attempting to commit a kidnapping, forcible rape, forcible criminal sexual act or robbery; or

    (c) He or she reasonably believes that such other person is committing or attempting to commit a burglary, and the circumstances are such that the use of deadly physical force is authorized by subdivision three of section 35.20.

    Now look at subdivision 3 of 35.20:

    § 35.20. Justification; use of physical force in defense of premises and in defense of a person in the course of burglary

    1. Any person may use physical force upon another person when he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to prevent or terminate what he or she reasonably believes to be the commission or attempted commission by such other person of a crime involving damage to premises. [fig 1] Such person may use any degree of physical force, other than deadly physical force, which he or she reasonably believes to be necessary for such purpose, and [fig 2] may use deadly physical force if he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to prevent or terminate the commission or attempted commission of arson.

    2. A person in possession or control of any premises, or a person licensed or privileged to be thereon or therein, may use physical force upon another person when he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to prevent or terminate what he or she reasonably believes to be the commission or attempted commission by such other person of a criminal trespass upon such premises. [fig 1] Such person may use any degree of physical force, other than deadly physical force, which he or she reasonably believes to be necessary for such purpose, and [fig 2] may use deadly physical force in order to prevent or terminate the commission or attempted commission of arson, as prescribed in subdivision one, or in the course of a burglary or attempted burglary, as prescribed in subdivision three.

    3. A person in possession or control of, or licensed or privileged to be in, a dwelling or an occupied building, who reasonably believes that another person is committing or attempting to commit a burglary of such dwelling or building, may use deadly physical force upon such other person when he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to prevent or terminate the commission or attempted commission of such burglary.

    4. As used in this section, the following terms have the following meanings:

    (a) The terms "premises," "building" and "dwelling" have the meanings prescribed in section 140.00;

    (b) Persons "licensed or privileged" to be in buildings......


    What one "reasonable beleives" when someone breaks into their home at 3am can not be THAT outrageous, but again, this is ALL THEORY.

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    I know who is going to be part of my legal team if something were to ever go down :D

    Thanks for the great info. Makes for interesting reading. Hope to God none of the above ever happens to anyone we know.

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    Default A man's home IS his castle !

    I am glad you found it interesting. Please keep in mind, this is not legal advice, its just an opinion. I too truly hope noone will ever need it, but if you are ever in a situation, its not pretty, but it's not a complete dead end either.

    Overall, I still agree with Muevelo that deadly force SHOULD ABSOLUTELY NOT be used, unless there is no other alternative. However, when someone breaks into your home at 3am, what alternatives are there?

    Here is some more info on burglary:

    What burlgary technically means in our state: If the building is a dwelling, burglary is entering with intent to commit ANY crime therein !!


    Section 140.25 Burglary in the second degree

    A person is guilty of burglary in the second degree when he knowingly enters or remains unlawfully in a building with intent to commit a crime therein, and when:

    1. In effecting entry or while in the building or in immediate flight therefrom, he or another participant in the crime:

    (a) Is armed with explosives or a deadly weapon; or

    (b) Causes physical injury to any person who is not a participant in the crime; or

    (c) Uses or threatens the immediate use of a dangerous instrument; or

    (d) Displays what appears to be a pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun, machine gun or other firearm; or

    2. The building is a dwelling.

    Burglary in the second degree is a class C felony.

    -----------------
    If the building is a dwelling, he does not even need to be armed. (Although I am sure it helps)

    The only problem is intent. If the guy was just a tresspasser, in NY that does not make him a burglar. You do not want to make a mistake and shoot the neighboor.

    An intruded must have intent to comit a crime, (any crime). This will be infered from the surrounding circumstances (what he has on him, time of the night, etc). I would not want to be in a situation where I would have to argue this in court, even if 80%-90% of all cases never go to trial. Then again, I don't think guys who break into people's homes in the middle of the night look like girl scouts.

    The line may not be a bright and clear one, but there is a line. Human life is too valuable to just blast away, and I beleive that those who use any violent force unjustifiably should be punished. The laws are there to detter all the trigger happy cowboys out there, which is understandable.

    However, unlike what many people beleive, in my opinion NY does allow you to use your firearm to defend your loved ones in your own home just as long as you aren't shooting drunk neighboors that walked onto your property by mistake. The way I read NY law, if a guy breaks into your home at 3am, and you reasonably beleive either that (1)he is there to rob you or hurt someone, or (2) you simply fear for your life: You are under no duty to retreat, and you CAN use deadly force.

    (Of course, this is all in theory) :)


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