1st Time Out with Little Brother -MR556 Comp Lower w/416 10.4" upper - Page 3
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Thread: 1st Time Out with Little Brother -MR556 Comp Lower w/416 10.4" upper

  1. #21
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    Honestly i'm not sure. I don't exactly know what to expect and what it should look like--- so i couldn't say if that looks like good work or not. I know i'm having my reparkerized and refinished so I'm not expecting any issues with scratches, etc. like i see on yours.

    As far as the muzzle--- i know that ADCO has a great reputation and they even have the following pic on their website. The machining looks about the same to my eyes from whats in your pics to what ADCO advertises. That's about my only basis for comparison.


  2. #22
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    There's a pretty big difference there...for mine, the cutting tool was riding up and down in the lands and grooves, causing very clear ripples in the crown. That doesn't appear in the work done in your photo.

  3. #23
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    Oh now that i look closely you're right. Hmmm..

    Well, like I said have you contacted him? What did they say? are they making it right? Is there an excuse for returning your barrels like that?

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  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by RegularGuy461969 View Post
    I thought Jayson was doing the vent to .030? If not I am mistaking it with HKs AK/BA vent hole being .030 and Jayson doing the .035. So if you had the same issue I guess my issue was not due to the spring in the HKParts PDW stock.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Did you purchase this 416 gas block from a guy on these forums in the last few months? I had a customer that had me vent a 416 block with I believe a .030 gas port and nitride it over the winter. Going by memory he wanted to try a little smaller port and was going to use it on a 416 upper, but ended up selling the upper and also parted with the gas block. To my knowledge that is the only person that has sold one of my vented blocks recently.

    Other than that the majority of gas blocks I do are approx .035. I actually use a slightly smaller drill as drill bits that are that small tend to flex when they bore through approx 1/4" of steel.

    My personal gun has a .039" vented gas block and its never failed to lock the bolt back. I did have my carrier nitrided which I believe reduces the amount of drag on the carrier, but I also shot it before I had the carrier nitrided without problems.

    I probably average doing about 6 vented blocks per month and I have been doing them going on 2 years now. I've not had any returned, I've had a couple guys report short stroking, but it has always been with Tula .223 or similar light loaded ammo and the problem was resolved when the customers switched to Federal, Winchester, or similar ammo.

    Because you are not getting consistent cycling I dont think the gas vent port is your problem. My experience has been that the Hk firearms are pretty consistent when used with the same quality ammo. Meaning if one is short stroking with Federal then it will pretty much short stroke close to the exact same amount every time. I went through a lot of different port sizes when I was coming up with the vented 10.4 gas block modifications, I used one of my interchangeable gas blocks to test out different vent sizes. When I had a port that was too big, it wouldn't load one round and not the next etc. Each shot got about the same results.

    I think it would be unusual for the gas block to cause one to short stroke so much that it wouldnt chamber a round one time and then lock the bolt open the next time. There is nearly 1/2" difference in travel between stripping a round and locking the bolt back.

    To me it sounds like you've got something dragging in your setup. Drag will often cause intermittent results as the parts that are dragging wont necessarily make contact with each other on every shot.

    I would recommend trying your upper with a standard setup lower if possible and see if it cycles consistently then. Swapping to a non-vented block may give you enough power to cycle consistently if the drag is pretty light.

    If you have a .035" gas port and think that's the problem I'd be glad to redo the block with a .030, its hard to go any smaller than a .030 as drill bits that are that small have a hard time getting through the steel the gas blocks are made from.

    Just shoot me an email [email protected]

  6. #25
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    Jayson, I sent you this email earlier today. Not sure if you've seen it or not, so here it is again.

    Yesterday we tried 5 different types of ammo: Federal GM match, some NATO 556 made by FN, some duty ammo on strippers used all the time without issues, and some PMC Xtac 556 and PMC Xtax 223 (which cycles fine in our unmodified ARs). We had a dozen or so cops who witnessed the issues with it unsuppressed …not a single round chambered without a suppressor. This was not an intermittent failure to feed…it never functioned, not even one time. It did work reliably suppressed, but not at all unsuppressed. The weapon sure appears to be undergassed with this mod...at least in my rifle which is new and otherwise unmodified (stock lower).

    I'm sure some more powerful ammo will help, as it obviously should. But even if you are correct about needing more powerful ammo, NO reliable AR, particularly a high quality piston MR556, should be so picky about ammunition.

    Question: Prior to having the work done, I was given the impression that the factory opening size of the new HK 416 10.4" with the vented GB is 0.035". Is that correct, or is it something else?
    Last edited by AGTtactical; 04-21-2016 at 09:29 PM.

  7. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jastone7373 View Post
    Oh now that i look closely you're right. Hmmm..

    Well, like I said have you contacted him? What did they say? are they making it right? Is there an excuse for returning your barrels like that?
    I offered multiple times to take care of the items he was not happy with.

    Dealing with AGT was unusual from the beginning until the end.

    He originally sent these to me saying he was having me do work for a very picky customer of his. They originally wanted them shortened, profiled, and nitride work done.

    Then after they had been here a week or so he said they didn't want any work done to them and to send them back and then it seems like the work requested might have even changed a time or two after that (I'm going by memory here and this was well over a year ago, but it was some situation like that)

    We had already shortened the barrels to the lengths he wanted at that point, and I had marked them under the gas blocks so that I could identify them when they got back from nitride, but hadn't done any profiling work yet.

    Since we wouldn't be doing refinish work on them and he said he had a very picky customer we couldn't hold them with a steady rest in the lathe to cut the crowns like we normally would (holding them in a steady rest would have partially removed some of the factory finish) which allowed the tool to chatter a little. Keep in mind that the photo you see of the muzzle is magnified a lot on a monitor. Measuring it on my monitor the bore is about an 1" in diameter which means it is magnified about 400%. The same goes for what he is calling marks from a grinder. Those marks are from 180 grit sandpaper which typically do not show up after a finish (either nitride or painted) is done.

    I didn't hear anything from him after he got them back for about 10 months. Then he contacted me and was irate claiming I had cut his crowns with a drill bit, claimed I had shot his 10.4" upper at least 50 times, and that I must have been trying to hide something from him because I sent the uppers back to him assembled. Even though pretty much everything I have worked on ships back to customers assembled. In one email he had requested that I wrap his receivers/parts separately in bubble wrap, which I thought he meant wrap each upper separately in bubble wrap, and he was mad about that. He also claimed that someone in my shop must have shot his upper without me knowing about it, possibly the guy that does machine work for me, and some other odd stuff as well.

    Long story short I offered to polish out his crowns and any other marks he didn't like, remove the lettering under the gas blocks, and nitride his barrels and gas blocks at no charge. I also offered to do the profile work on them at a reduced price if he was still wanting that done. He said that wouldn't work for him and he wanted approx. $595 or he would get an attorney. We had gone back and forth several times at that point and didn't seem to be getting anywhere so I told him to go ahead and hire an attorney and see if we could get it resolved that way.

    That was last November, didn't hear from him again until this week about his 10.4 not cycling. We've communicated a little about that. Not sure what is going on there, he thought his 10.4 was fired here, at the time I did his gas block it wouldn't be unheard of for me to put 2 or 3 rounds through a few vented 10.4s at random just to make sure they were functioning like I thought they would, especially if someone told me several times the upper belonged to an unreasonably picky person. So most likely I verified his upper was working before it left here.

    My offer to take care of the issues he has still stands, if he wants me to look into his gas block I'd be glad to do it. To my knowledge he is the only guy that is unhappy with the work that I have done on MRs, so I think the way I have been doing them is what most guys want. At this point I've done a lot of gas blocks at .035" and haven't had one come back. It could be that .035" works for most MRs, but maybe not all. There could be a few outliers out there. If that's the case and the port needs to be .030" that's not a problem.

  8. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by AGTtactical View Post
    Jayson, I sent you this email earlier today. Not sure if you've seen it or not, so here it is again.

    Yesterday we tried 5 different types of ammo: Federal GM match, some NATO 556 made by FN, some duty ammo on strippers used all the time without issues, and some PMC Xtac 556 and PMC Xtax 223 (which cycles fine in our unmodified ARs). We had a dozen or so cops who witnessed the issues with it unsuppressed …not a single round chambered without a suppressor. This was not an intermittent failure to feed…it never functioned, not even one time. It did work reliably suppressed, but not at all unsuppressed. The weapon sure appears to be undergassed with this mod...at least in my rifle which is new and otherwise unmodified (stock lower).

    I'm sure some more powerful ammo will help, as it obviously should. But even if you are correct about needing more powerful ammo, NO reliable AR, particularly a high quality piston MR556, should be so picky about ammunition.

    Question: Prior to having the work done, I was given the impression that the factory opening size of the new HK 416 10.4" with the vented GB is 0.035". Is that correct, or is it something else?
    It's too hard to say what is going on with your upper without having either the complete upper or the gas block here to take a look at. If you want to send either of those to me I'll be glad to look into it. As I said in my last couple posts .035 seems to work for everyone so far and at this point I've done quite a few. I would think if it was too large I'd definitely have heard from more than 2 guys that their upper wouldn't cycle.

    If you want me to take a look at your parts shoot me an email and we can get that going.

  9. #28
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    Jayson, I think anyone who sees the pics of the work you did would be understandably disappointed...it's really not what anyone would expect on a $3000 rifle. And most people won't ever see what I discovered unless they remove the barrel, gas block and flash hider. Anyhow, since you brought this up, I think folks might want some clarification. I have the original emails, so the items in quotes are cut and pasted from your own emails in case there's any doubt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayson View Post
    He originally sent these to me saying he was having me do work for a very picky customer of his. They originally wanted them shortened, profiled, and nitride work done.Then after they had been here a week or so he said they didn't want any work done to them and to send them back and then it seems like the work requested might have even changed a time or two after that (I'm going by memory here and this was well over a year ago, but it was some situation like that).
    What happened: After I sent the barrels to you, I saw a picture of one of your finished barrels posted on HKPro which appeared to have lathe marks on it. You told me "the steel the MR barrels are made from does not machine well" and that the barrels would need polishing to get those marks out. Polishing would be extra...$50 to $100/barrel. A machinist on this site, NoScoE30, who does beautiful MR barrel work, said such lathe marks are NOT normal for an MR...he even sent me a picture of one of his finished barrels, which indeed was very clean and without any lathe marks...as good of better than factory. I was very concerned about your lathe work at this point, and wanted to discuss this with you to see what you thought, but you said you didn't have time to talk. I quote: "Sorry I cant I am trying to get some Hk builds out and don’t have time to talk on the phone." This is not the sort of thing you'd expect someone to say to a customer who sent in $6000 in rifles, so this understandably pissed me off. At that that point I told you to skip the barrel profile and return the uppers unassembled. I have my emails...I state "...you can leave everything disassembled. Please just be sure all the pieces are there and the receivers are very well protected for shipping....these guns are brand new…never fired…" I also stated in another email: "Please wrap the pieces separately in bubble wrap so they don’t bang against each other in shipping, and send back. Leave the muzzle devices un-mounted of course. You can leave the gas blocks off if they are already removed." Despite these emails, I received everything back fully assembled, which kept me from seeing the work until much later when I was going to have the barrels profiled and nitrided.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayson View Post
    Since we wouldn't be doing refinish work on them and he said he had a very picky customer we couldn't hold them with a steady rest in the lathe to cut the crowns like we normally would (holding them in a steady rest would have partially removed some of the factory finish) which allowed the tool to chatter a little. Keep in mind that the photo you see of the muzzle is magnified a lot on a monitor. Measuring it on my monitor the bore is about an 1" in diameter which means it is magnified about 400%. The same goes for what he is calling marks from a grinder. Those marks are from 180 grit sandpaper which typically do not show up after a finish (either nitride or painted) is done.
    So we are to believe you did bad crown work to avoid harming the barrel finish? Most machinists can crown the barrel without such issues. Why didn't you contact me about that if you felt you had to make a choice? A good crown is far more important than some cosmetic barrel marks. And why were you using 180 grit sandpaper on people's barrels anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayson View Post
    Then he contacted me and was irate claiming I had cut his crowns with a drill bit, claimed I had shot his 10.4" upper at least 50 times, and that I must have been trying to hide something from him because I sent the uppers back to him assembled. Even though pretty much everything I have worked on ships back to customers assembled. In one email he had requested that I wrap his receivers/parts separately in bubble wrap, which I thought he meant wrap each upper separately in bubble wrap, and he was mad about that. He also claimed that someone in my shop must have shot his upper without me knowing about it, possibly the guy that does machine work for me, and some other odd stuff as well.
    My gunsmith was the first to notice that one barrel looked like it had been fired 50 times (the 14.5 was not fired). He even took the photos, because he was so concerned about it and the rest of the work. Firing the gun would not have been that much of an issue except we wanted the barrels nitrided before firing because a clean, unfired barrel is extremely important. Anyhow, here's what you said after I asked you about the 10.5" being fired:

    "I don’t have to test fire any of the MR upper modifications as the are pretty standard and known to work in those configurations. I wouldn’t have test fired your 10.5 unless you requested it and then there likely would have been an additional charge for it."

    After I sent you the photos proving it had been fired, you said this:
    "I thought a little bit more about your 10” upper over the weekend. On that one we did the vented gas block, which at the time was a fairly new option. I don’t recall shooting it, but I could see taking it out and putting at most 2 to 3 rounds through it just to make sure it would eject properly since at first I was not sure a .035” port in the gas blocks would work for every firearm."

    Interesting change, don't you think? How are we to take that? You also surprised me by informing me you send barrels out to have some other machinist do the work. Quote: "Yes I have a machinist that does the majority of that type of work for me. I give him bare barrels and he machines them according to a set of plans I made from 416 barrels. He is 70 and has no interest in firearms, he doesn’t have any firearms and has no way to assemble your bare barrel and make it into an upper to fire."

    As for the rest, yeah, you'd offered to fix it, but only after making excuses and denying you did anything wrong. Even now, you claim the barrel crown is really not that bad, and just a matter of "magnification." Anyhow, given the opinion of my gunsmith and machinist, I was not keen on trusting you with my uppers again, particularly since they're being sent to a machinist with "no interest in firearms." I only asked you for my money back, as it was going to cost more to correct things than the original job. But you refused. The mention of an attorney only occured after you outrageously accused me of dishonesty...something no Marine likes to hear. Anyhow, I'm not at fault here Jayson. I have nothing to gain. I have no reason to make this up; no reason to be dishonest about it. Besides, the photos speak for themselves, as does my inoperative MR.
    Last edited by AGTtactical; 04-21-2016 at 11:55 PM.

  10. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayson View Post
    It's too hard to say what is going on with your upper without having either the complete upper or the gas block here to take a look at. If you want to send either of those to me I'll be glad to look into it. As I said in my last couple posts .035 seems to work for everyone so far and at this point I've done quite a few. I would think if it was too large I'd definitely have heard from more than 2 guys that their upper wouldn't cycle. If you want me to take a look at your parts shoot me an email and we can get that going.
    Thanks, but how many is quite a few? I only ask because 2 poorly functioning guns out of 50 is an anomaly. 2 out of 20 not so much.

    What is the factory 10.4" vent opening size?
    Last edited by AGTtactical; 04-22-2016 at 12:53 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by khanda View Post
    How did you set up your rifle on the bench rest?
    Sandbags atop my pelican case.
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