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Discussion Starter #1
Hey all,
I've scrolled through the posts in search of shortened uppers of 417 with no avail. Apart from chopping it down which I'm not prepared to do, I was hoping there would be companies that manufacture such an iteam. It isn't for civil use.
Thanks in advance
Chino
 

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Hey all,
I've scrolled through the posts in search of shortened uppers of 417 with no avail. Apart from chopping it down which I'm not prepared to do, I was hoping there would be companies that manufacture such an iteam. It isn't for civil use.
Thanks in advance
Chino
If it is not for civil use, then contact HK mil/LE sales. They make 417 in 12". Italians are using them in A-Stan in DMR config.

BTW HK does not make 417 as separate uppers. Those are complete rifles. Only other lower that can be used with 417 in place of original one, is special 417 dedicated lower made by Spuhr in Sweden.
 

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If it is not for civil use, then contact HK mil/LE sales. They make 417 in 12". Italians are using them in A-Stan in DMR config.

BTW HK does not make 417 as separate uppers. Those are complete rifles. Only other lower that can be used with 417 in place of original one, is special 417 dedicated lower made by Spuhr in Sweden.
A 12" 7.62 rifle for DMR? That doesn't sound optimum.
 

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A 12" 7.62 rifle for DMR? That doesn't sound optimum.
12" 417 is very accurate. And 7.62 round has plenty of punch even from so short barrel. Rifle is more compact, easier to handle and also low profile.
 

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Well, the shorter the barrel the more effect shooter error has on POI.

The 12" gun is probably very accurate, but an accurized 16" gun would be better for a DMR setup in my opinion. Especially at ranges up to 600 meters, maybe pushing it out to 700 or 800 depending on optic and skill.

Do you have a source for the information? Google only turns up a 4 year old thread on this site, where a guy says he "heard the 12" HK417 can shoot 1MOA at 600 meters".
 

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The 12.5" barrel HK417 prototypes were able to shoot 1.3 MOA. While the 12.5" HK417 does have its uses, most 7.62mm NATO OTM rounds were designed for 16" or longer barrels and I think DocGKR said that most 7.62mm OTM rounds have performance similar to .30-30 from a 12" barrel and therefore the terminal performance would not be as impressive. See if the Mk319 works well for the 12" barrel b/c it was optimized for short barrels and the velocity of MK319 is 2750fps at 15' when fired from a 13" barrel MK17.
 

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Really?

In YOUR experience, what uses do you see for the 12" HK417? And it is now 12", not 12.5".

There is no logic in having a short barrel for a DMR. And at what distance did the supposed 12.5" HK417's shoot 1.3 MOA? Provide sources, please.
 

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If it is not for civil use, then contact HK mil/LE sales. They make 417 in 12". Italians are using them in A-Stan in DMR config.

BTW HK does not make 417 as separate uppers. Those are complete rifles. Only other lower that can be used with 417 in place of original one, is special 417 dedicated lower made by Spuhr in Sweden.
Why would Sphur make a replacement lower for a weapon that doesn't have aftermarket uppers?
 

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Really?

In YOUR experience, what uses do you see for the 12" HK417? And it is now 12", not 12.5".

There is no logic in having a short barrel for a DMR. And at what distance did the supposed 12.5" HK417's shoot 1.3 MOA? Provide sources, please.
AGR416, you misunderstood my point. I never said the 12.5" HK417 has uses as a DMR b/c the OP never said he was using it as a DMR. I meant that it may have some uses for special forces b/c USSOCOM uses the 13" barrel Mk17 and Australian SOF units were trialing the 12" version of the HK417 (do a search on Australia and HK417 on hkpro forums and you'll find the article). Again, I do think the 16" version is the most viable and a good choice as a DMR and the 12" guns seems to make sense for some Spec Ops missions from a logistics standpoint but 6.8mm SPC and .300 Blackout would seem like a better choice for that role.

Here's the source about the 12" HK417 accuracy: Heckler & Koch - USA

Also G3 kurz said that "the first HK417 prototypes we fired in Prescott in 2005 during HK Desert Testing hammered - sub 1MOA all the way out to 500 meters with M118LR ammo and multipe shooters under field conditions - from a 12.5" barrel test gun!" http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk416-hk...hk417-did-not-pass-german-army-dmr-tests.html
 

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Discussion Starter #10
If it is not for civil use, then contact HK mil/LE sales. They make 417 in 12". Italians are using them in A-Stan in DMR config.

It is a long process to get any wpns upgrades. I was hoping for an aftermarket alternative.
Excuse my ignorance but what is DMR?
What is the reason there isn't aftermarket uppers?
 

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chino, if you live in the USA, there is a barrel ban which prohibits the sale of the factory HK417 barrels from HK Germany.
Also, the HK417 hasn't been released to the US market yet, only in testing still for USA so haven't seen any dealers with them yet.

Lastly, they are not available for dealers to order anymore with the new rules from HK, so very unlikely any will hit the market like the HK416 factory uppers did.
Since the HK417 is a complete weapon from the start they aren't offering "uppers" to convert existing military lowers like they did for the HK416 and US Military M16/M4.
 

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AGR416, you misunderstood my point. I never said the 12.5" HK417 has uses as a DMR b/c the OP never said he was using it as a DMR. I meant that it may have some uses for special forces b/c USSOCOM uses the 13" barrel Mk17 and Australian SOF units were trialing the 12" version of the HK417 (do a search on Australia and HK417 on hkpro forums and you'll find the article). Again, I do think the 16" version is the most viable and a good choice as a DMR and the 12" guns seems to make sense for some Spec Ops missions from a logistics standpoint but 6.8mm SPC and .300 Blackout would seem like a better choice for that role.
See my PM about the above.

And I still stand by my view that a DMR is better with a longer barrel.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
See my PM about the above.

And I still stand by my view that a DMR is better with a longer barrel.
The longer barrel has its merits but in tight spaces and compounds where the doorways are tight and half the height of western doorways longer barrels loose the edge. The ballistics of the 7.62 x 51 is needed to punch through walls and for real stopping power. Hence the need for a shorter barrel, so the DMR turns into a short barrel 7.62 asslt rifle. Sure there are better rifles out there but deal with the hand your dealt with.
Its a pity they are unavailable as they are a good rifle. Swap out the uppers to task.
 

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Of course, there are benefits to a short barrel weapon, and inherent accuracy should not suffer in a 12" barrel (stiffer barrel -> better harmonics/less whip), but just like a handgun, a short barrel will punish shooter error more.

And I am not going to get in to a caliber debate, as those discussions are frowned upon here.

I do agree that the best solution would be a single lower, and two uppers; 1 SBR and 1 long. Actual lengths dependant on weapon system.
 

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Accuracy wise barrel length is not really an issue until you start passing velocity/stability thresholds, which happens closer in a short barrel obviously. Lethality and firing signature on the other hand, sucks a big one in 7.62. Load tailoring can help get closer to the desired lethality but the firing signature will always be nearly unacceptable outside of some very rare scenarios.

Concur with the assessment of AGR416. I don't like sub 16" 7.62x51 guns for anything really. The CQC Scar never should have happened either.
 

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Why would Sphur make a replacement lower for a weapon that doesn't have aftermarket uppers?
Apparently some end user requested lower that will be compatible with SR25 magazines. Spuhr is member here. There is a thread on this.

I do not know why exactly Italians went with 12.5" barrels, but this what pictures from A-Stan shows: 12.5" HK417s with scopes.
 

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"Also G3 kurz said that "the first HK417 prototypes we fired in Prescott in 2005 during HK Desert Testing hammered - sub 1MOA all the way out to 500 meters with M118LR ammo and multipe shooters under field conditions - from a 12.5" barrel test gun!"

This above is fact. The 12.5" barrel HK417's are capable of sub-MOA accuracy with M118LR. Been there done that as did 4-5 various SOF shooters off a range bag with a slight side wind at Gunsitein 2005. These test guns had also been used for full auto fire even using the 50-rd G8 drum which fit the G3 mag wells of the first HK417 protos. One sample had over 10K rounds through it when this accuracy testing was done. So we know the gun is capable of it.

Would 16" be better? Depends on your needs for external and terminal ballistics. They are not necessarily more accurate in the HK platform but are marvelous in a LaRue OBR. Experienced shooters are getting hits with these beyond even the transonic threshold.

If the Italians find the compact weight and OAL of a 12.5" HK417 suitable for their purposes both in accuracy and terminal efects with their ammo of choice so be it. Longer is not necessarily better in every application and a long barrel HK417 with can is VERY heavy/front heavy and cumbersome. From a guy that could do nearly everything with a good G3K, the 12.5" barrel HK417 might be the best all around package available in its caliber.

Apparently others in the US and other allied SOF units tend to agree.

Pound for pound, inch for inch the short barrel HK's always seemed to hold their own in the accuracy department with the longer barrel variants. That included the HK53, G3K and XM8 CC. It was just the right mix.

G3Kurz
 

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@Montrala:

Are you talking about this pic?



If so, it looks like a S&B Short Dot scope, so don't know if that really constitutes a DMR setup to be honest.

@G3Kurz:

a long barrel HK417 with can is VERY heavy/front heavy and cumbersome.
Agreed. We have the 20" guns, and they are quite cumbersome when fitted with the suppressor:



Our snipers usually patrol with a 16.5" HK416 or MP7-A1, and carry the HK417 in a pack or load it on their ATV's.
 

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@Montrala:

Are you talking about this pic?



If so, it looks like a S&B Short Dot scope, so don't know if that really constitutes a DMR setup to be honest.
Can't see pic. But I saw several photos and not all were with Short Dots (maybe they have set of scopes to choose like Germans with G28?).

But, even then, why is good 1-4x scope not suitable for DMR? 4x scopes worked great for snipers and also for DMs for decades. I know that now trend is for higher magnificiation, but my friend, sniping instructor (and ex-CT sniper and ex-military DM), says that low powered scopes give better situational awareness. And DMs, who usually do not have spotters (like snipers), to help them and look around for them, prefer more field of view. Plus in MOUT there is different tasks for DMs than in the open. German G28 has different scopes for "stationary" (sniper) and "patrol" (DMR) use, with significant difference in scope magnification and field of view.
 
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