[bermise]

I am wanting a MP5 clone pistol and want it made from all german parts kit on a US made LSC flat. If I register this pistol as a SBR and put on a fixed A2 stock, will I need to find US parts to swap out mine or is all german parts ok for a pistol converted to a SBR rifle?

And do the listed US made 922 compliance parts, like on HKparts.net, say "made in USA" on all of them? Just wondering how some one could tell the difference.

 

[straightgrain]

You will be the "maker" when creating an SBR out of an MP5 pistol. As long as the MP5 pistol stayed as a pistol 922(r) does NOT apply. But as soon as you make it a rifle, any kind of rifle, it must meet the requirements of 922(r), so you, as the maker, will need to make sure that there are enough US made parts in it to not trip the barrier of too many foreign parts. As far as parts being stamped with a country of origin... not usually. ATF can go through some VERY expensive testing to determine origin of certain metal parts. It is not likely that this will happen.

922(r), to my knowledge, has never been used as the lead charge. It is almost always a bolt on offense for folks that also happen to be doing lots of other badness that ATF dislikes. And ATF has secured LOTS of convictions for 922(r), just not as the lead charge. I am not going to counsel you to break the law. But I am also going to tell you that in this current economic climate ATF does not have the resources to go inspect the point of origin on components on every Joe Blow's LSC SBR. And remember, 922(r) is a making/assembly offense, not a possession offense. So if you bought it that way...

 

[bug]

When you file your Form 1 to "make" an SBR is there any need/requirement to include how you plan to comply with 922(r)? TIA

Bob D

 

[SudS]

I've bought a number of US made parts from HK Parts. All of them had some sort of identification stamped on them, like "PTR" for example.

 

[bermise]

When you file your Form 1 to "make" an SBR is there any need/requirement to include how you plan to comply with 922(r)? TIA

Bob D

Not on the form 1 that I remember. I may need to double check.

I used to have USC that ED at HDPS converted and the 922 parts could not be spotted by the regular eye. Mag base plate, trigger, mag follower and folding stock mount did not have any USA markings on them. So unless they sieze and disect the gun not sure how anyone could tell??

 

[bermise]

I've bought a number of US made parts from HK Parts. All of them had some sort of identification stamped on them, like "PTR" for example.

PTR(Precision Tactical Rifle?)

 

[SudS]

PTR(Precision Tactical Rifle?)

Notice the mark on the side of the hammer from HKParts?

 

[11ACR_Vet]

If I register this pistol as a SBR and put on a fixed A2 stock, will I need to find US parts to swap out mine or is all german parts ok for a pistol converted to a SBR rifle?

Using the following us-made parts from HKParts.net, I just did this to a V53: flash hider, cocking handle, trigger box, hammer, trigger, sear and a grip from Top-Notch Parts. This made a 922r total of 8 (counting the receiver). The barrel on mine is of dubious pedigree (likely machined from an import), hence the extra parts.

And do the listed US made 922 compliance parts, like on HKparts.net, say "made in USA" on all of them? Just wondering how some one could tell the difference.

The cocking handle, hammer, trigger and sear are clearly marked PTR. The (SA-only) trigger box is marked TPC and of course, the receiver is US-made and marked.

To me, it's worth the extra cash to be sure of a part's origin. This removes all doubt in the eyes of the inspector.

I have a V93 that was purchased new from a well known and reliable vendor. The accompanying manual states that the barrel and hammer were of US origin, but they were not. The hammer was an untouched HK33 FA hammer and the barrel is the shorter HK33 version with a pinned/welded flash hider.

Realizing that 922r violations are a "manufacturing" violation, but not wanting to risk the loss of the weapon, it also underwent the same FCG mods (using more of the above listed items from HKParts) to make it 922r legal.

 

[U.S. Praetorian]

When you file your Form 1 to "make" an SBR is there any need/requirement to include how you plan to comply with 922(r)? TIA

Bob D

No.
Concerning parts origin, I have seen several PTR factory and Vector guns and the FCG does not have PTR or Made in USA on these parts. Many, many supposed US made parts for various guns have no identifying markings.

 

[Schlafftablett]

What I find amusing about these discussions is that people get worried about having their weapons "inspected" at all. Bottom line is that if ATF takes your gun to "inspect" for 922 violations you're probably not getting it back even if it is compliant. Even more if they’re looking that hard you should probably be a whole lot more worried about how you're going to fair as a "new fish" because if Big Brother is looking at you that hard you’re probably going to the country club for a while.

I agree with straightgrain as far as advising people to not break the law but at the same time I think it's ludicrous to stress about whether or not my mag base plate has a US mark or not. This is especially true because, as Praetorian said, many supposedly US made parts aren’t marked anyway.

 

[leonpiper69]

not trying to contradict or start an argument (although some will take it as such) but i thought i had read that 922r is for semi-automatic rifles and since an SBR is an sbr and not a semi-auto rifle wouldnt 922r not count?

i got thinking about it because if it counts toward nfa then 922 would apply to a machine gun to, no?


found it...

"It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) of this chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes except that this subsection shall not apply to--
(1) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or
(2) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Attorney General. "

so i guess it wouldnt count to ward full auto but does all other nfa fall into this?

 

[U.S. Praetorian]

not trying to contradict or start an argument (although some will take it as such) but i thought i had read that 922r is for semi-automatic rifles and since an SBR is an sbr and not a semi-auto rifle wouldnt 922r not count?

i got thinking about it because if it counts toward nfa then 922 would apply to a machine gun to, no?


?

You would think so and that makes sense but no- MG's and pistols 922 does not apply, SBR or any other Title 1 firearm (longarm) yes, 922 applies. Now quit trying to start an arguement.

 

[Lohe]

It doesn't matter how WE enterpret the law. It matters how BATF enterprets them. They have larger sticks than we do and it seems we have little to no influence over the gun laws in our country.

 

[rhouston8]

Gunwiki: 922(r) Worksheet for MP5 builds and Clones

may be of help to the potential builder ...

hh

 

[Renegade]

not trying to contradict or start an argument (although some will take it as such) but i thought i had read that 922r is for semi-automatic rifles and since an SBR is an sbr and not a semi-auto rifle wouldnt 922r not count?

i got thinking about it because if it counts toward nfa then 922 would apply to a machine gun to, no?


found it...

"It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) of this chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes except that this subsection shall not apply to--
(1) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or
(2) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Attorney General. "

so i guess it wouldnt count to ward full auto but does all other nfa fall into this?

An SBR is a S/A Rifle.

The problem is 922(r) is a poorly written law. Reading it at face-value, it applies to nothing, as it only applies to firearms banned from importation under 925(d)(3). Problem, is no firearms are banned from importation under 925(d)(3). They are banned from importation under 922(l). 925(d)(3) is where certain firearms, if deemed sporting, get to be imported. Now when 922(r) was enacted, NFA firearms (especially SBR), were not as common as they today, and so they were generally ignored. Many folks bragged about 99% HK/Germany SBR parts (use the way-back time machine if you do not believe me).

Adding to that you have the problem where a SP89 is legal, but SBRing it and putting a US made stock is not. Or a MP5 SBR conversion has 10 parts, using a US made magazine is legal, using a German made one is a felony.

The you can have a case where an 07/02 could have made a bunch of MP5 SBRs for a local PD. They do not need to comply with 922r, and are 99% German (except say receiver). PD later sells them, they are still legal since possession is not illegal.

We really need to get this law repealed or cleaned up.

 

[Schlafftablett]

Couldn't agree more. Especially since there are letters that say that it applies to SBR and some that say it doesn't. This is what happens when people start writing laws that have no idea what they are talking about then give an enforcement agency the power to effectively change them as they see fit (or rather politically expedient).

Bottom line is that it is NOT a possession offense so unless the Feds can prove that #1 your gun has too many imported parts AND #2 that YOU did it it's a moot point. That said, I use US made parts in my builds just to avoid any possible issues and advise others to do the same but I'm an 07 and do this for other people.

 

[straightgrain]

There are no letters that say it applies to SBR's. What you think you see when you read response letters is a blanket coverage when in fact it only applies to a specific question (that you are not even seeing in the original letter). Making an SBR does not relieve you from the strictures of 922(r). Period. What those letters do is answer a very specific issue. To illustrate:

I have an HK 94. Can i just shorten the barrel and make it an SBR without doing all the rest of the parts swaps?
YES. The letter in question allows you to create an SBR by just shortening the barrel. ATF ruled that this would be an acceptable exception to the 922(r) restrictions. Mostly because they had already approved a lot of these guns and didn't want to have to give the money back.
'I have an HK USC and want to create a UMP clone SBR without using US parts. Is that cool?
NO. You are doing a lot more than just cutting a barrel. Since this involves actual parts substitution instead of just shortening one existing part, 922(r) applies.

I don't like the fact that 922(r) exists at all. It's nearly impossible to enforce and it is a very fluid interpretation. And it makes the HK world difficult...