HKPRO Forums banner

1 - 19 of 19 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
30 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
German gun magazine VISIER reports today on its website homepage that police in the South-West German state of Baden-Württemberg will introduce the P 2000 variant 2 (DAO) as a replacement to its P 7 and Walther P 5 pistols. HK thereby beat out Walther - who are based at Ulm, also in that very state - and Sauer.

There had been considerations to let officers choose individually from a range of handguns certified by the department, including Walther's P 99 and the SIG Pro 2009. However, in the end this was probably considered too "un-German".


Still, the decision to choose a DAO handgun in itself is unusual for German police, who have carried SA/DA pistols ever since the legendary Walther PP series.

[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: BansheeOne ]</p>
 

·
Er spricht schlechtes Deutsch...
Joined
·
1,577 Posts
Thanks for the heads up. I posted the news on the home page.
 
G

·
Guest
Joined
·
0 Posts
Well, I know that "New Is Better" to many folks, but I don't agree that the P2000 is actually superior to the P7 at all.
I've not heard of German police P7s wearing out or breaking. Anybody know if that's the reason foe replacement?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
30 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
When Lower Saxony recently replaced its P 7's with P 2000's as first German state, they said the P 7 was "outmoded" and "increasingly hard to maintain". However, this has probably more to do with the P 7 being the front runner in German statistics of "persons shot by accident". It seems the sad state of firearms training in German police departments wasn't up to the tricks of the squeeze cocker - i.e., officers were drawing their guns with grip already squeezed, or had fingers on trigger before squeezing, resulting in shots to their own tighs, people killed by accident in roadblocks, or when there was actually no need of armed force against a suspect.

Of course no new gun will fare better without training... I tell this time and again, when I visited Lower Saxony Police during my high school internship in the 80's, there were all of 125 rounds fired from the P 7 (and a mere 25 from the MP 5) in all of basic training, with only another 25 for annual re-qualification. However, some time earlier when I brought this up here I checked with a brother of mine, who did some time in Berlin PD until three years ago. He said they started right out with spending several hundred rounds in training (they used the P 6/SIG 225 there)... so I hope training has progressed along with the developement history of guns used.

On a tactical level, they were probably looking for something with a higher mag capacity. Despite the threat of domestic terrorism in the 70's, the issue handguns introduced to German police in the early 80's (P 5, P 6, P 7, P 9) were all single-stack... partly from the thought that an officer would not need more than 8 rounds plus one spare mag, and probably in part so as not to create the impression of a potential lead-spitting uniformed gunfighter. Oh, well...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
With all these German LE agencies switching to the P2000, does this mean we'll see more P7 refurbs in the states?
 
G

·
Guest
Joined
·
0 Posts
Is HK beating Walther as the preferred brand of gun by germans?
I am a big fan of Walther (P99) but am also a bigger fan of HK (Tactical 45, Expert 40 on the way).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
30 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
I don't think there's a single favourite handgun brand in Germany. If you're asking for service guns... up into the 70's, more or less all police agencies issued the Walther PPK or Walther P 1 (= P 38); BGS (Federal Border Guard) used SIG 210's, replaced by the SIG 225. Walther's P 5 was only introduced with police in Baden-Württemberg and Rhineland-Palatia. The Bundeswehr kept its P 1's until they were replaced by the P 8 in the 90's. The Feldjäger (Military Police) also had some PPK's for plaincloth work, designated I think P 21. They were replaced by P 7's, which see use especially in VIP protection.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
superior? ha! there is probably not even one tactical user of the p7 that would trade it for a new p2000. i wouldn't trade mine for 5 of them. if you're life relies on it you know what i'm talking about. collectors , do what you want. that's a different story. if there is someone who disagrees please tell me why. i know both weapons in extreme detail and would never even compare the two.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
143 Posts
It seems the sad state of firearms training in German police departments wasn't up to the tricks of the squeeze cocker - i.e., officers were drawing their guns with grip already squeezed, or had fingers on trigger before squeezing, resulting in shots to their own tighs, people killed by accident in roadblocks, or when there was actually no need of armed force against a suspect.

Of course no new gun will fare better without training... I tell this time and again, when I visited Lower Saxony Police during my high school internship in the 80's, there were all of 125 rounds fired from the P 7 (and a mere 25 from the MP 5) in all of basic training, with only another 25 for annual re-qualification. However, some time earlier when I brought this up here I checked with a brother of mine, who did some time in Berlin PD until three years ago. He said they started right out with spending several hundred rounds in training (they used the P 6/SIG 225 there)... so I hope training has progressed along with the developement history of guns used.

The German Police departments have a long time to train their recruits. Two years, as opposed to a 22-week or so course in an American police academy. You would think that they would have a more intensive firearms training.

Though I do see a problem with equipment. In all of the photographs I've seen of officers they don't wear a US style duty belt. Their gear looks more like a concealment holster on the trouser belt. Their issue jackets, and sweaters, come down over everything with no side vents. Though, I found out that their leather coats have a fake lower right pocket that allows the officer to draw. Drawing a pistol through a raincoat style pass-through pocket wouldn't win any speed draw contests. It would probably increase the chance of getting caught on something. It probably explains the road block incidents. If you think you're going to need your pistol you draw it early because you know you can't get to it very fast.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
28 Posts
I don't think it is training really. The P7 is now out of production permanently. How long before parts supplies start to dry up? Or the guys over there who know how to fix 'em retire? In my experience, if you want to see ANY PD's start moving away from a weapons system en masse, take it out of production. They can't trade 'em fast enough.

:100000:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
The 2 or 1 years course of training in the German and other Europeans police services is boring and absolutely useless.I am an European police officer and I sincerely tell you that the American course is better.And you are absolutely right about the equipment in Europe,it sucks.:90: :90: :90:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
36 Posts
Seems as though police agencies like to trade their pistols in for new types every couple of decades at most.

I wonder if the Europeans will follow us into the labyrinth of "which caliber is best?"
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,464 Posts
Seems as though police agencies like to trade their pistols in for new types every couple of decades at most.

I wonder if the Europeans will follow us into the labyrinth of "which caliber is best?"
Police in Poland is for eg. replacing it's pistols now. Most of them is over 30 years old P-64 (9x18mm). They already have 50.000 pieces of P99 and tender for another almost 30.000 will commence soon (it was cancelled and will be all over again). In "pilot" for 5.000 pieces HK USPf 9x19mm was submited, but offer was rejected due to procedural reasons.

As to caliber, Europe decided that for Police 9x19mm is best and nobody is even talking about some exoctic calibers like .40 S&W or .45 ACP, neither is complaining about 9x19mm. But remeber that police forces, unlike military, is not limited to use FMJ bullets.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,464 Posts
They have P99 SA/DA for some 6-7 years. They are manufactured by Fabryka Broni in Radom under licence (and using OFM parts) from Walther. Unit number 50000 was produced and delivered 2 months ago (I was invited by FB to some event about that). New tender was set in favor of G19 but ToR was not in accordance with law and also Police found out that G19 doesn't fulfill ToR, so it was cancelled. In pilot tender 5000 G19 where contracted, but there is law suit about it. HK was present with HK USPf offer submitted by Cenrex (HK LE/Mil distributor for Poland), but offer was invalid from legal point of view.

Key point is that this delivery is "be or not to be" for FB Radom. But word is that this 30K delivery is crucial for Glock future (they are not doing on LE/Mil worldwide market as good as it was before) as well. HK seems to overlook this opportunity to sell P30 for new customer. Or at least Cenrex is "efficiend in different way".
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
46 Posts
@Montrala:

Thank you very much for the information regarding the Polish Police Contracts. Very informativ.

It's indeed very strange that HK did not present the P2000 or the P30 for the 30000 unit contract.

Police in the german state of Northrhine-Westfalia, which ordered 40000 Walther P99, have the DAO model.
And this huge contract was also challenged in court by Hk, but they lost eventually.
 
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
Top