[SmokeyWhisper]

MP5, MP5SD Owners and Gunsmilths-
I AM LOOKING FOR COMPARISSONS- if you own an MP5 or MP5SD, I'd love to hear your feedback as to what is "normal", similar/different or wrong compared to my weapon. I've had in my possession since January of 2012, the MP5SD built by TPM Outfitters in Carrolton, TX with an Urbach suppressor. Since then I've been to the range a couple times, cleaned it a couple times and have gotten familiar with the workings of it. Now, it seems that the Gremlins are starting to show and I am looking for someone who can repair and refinish my weapon so that it is correct and safe. I cannot afford a %1000 grade repair but I will have it fixed the Hk way... No Compromise.
1. Mine will only cycle and function correctly with Winchester NATO 124 grain ammo. I am using a 120degree German locking piece marked "MP 5 Action 1 MP 5 SD", German Bolt head IV date, and German carrier IF date(pic included). (and I'm assuming that the recoil spring is a regular spring and not from the "F" models.) All of these parts came on the weapon from the builder- I have not changed anything but the stock and if your thinking "it could be the rubber buffer", well that's why I have shot it with both the A2 and A3 stocks with the same results. The rest of the ammo I have tried will fail to eject between 1 and 5 rounds shot. I have tried numerous brands of varying quality and weights including Remington UMC bulk pack (had to try it once), Remington (green/white box), Winchester (not WWB), PMC, American Eagle, Sellor & Bellot and recently Hornady Zombie 9mm 115gr. I've shot 115gr and 124gr when I can find it. I have not tried anything marked +P though I am of the understanding that the Winchester NATO 124gr that DOES work is considered "hotter than normal". Is this normal or should it function on a wide variety of ammo?
2. I have cleaned my weapon thoroughly after each range session with either Safariland Break Free brand CLP, Remington brand Rem Oil and/or good old fashioned Hoppes 9 and have changed the butt stock back and forth no more than 10 times- (but lets just say that I did it 50-50 on/50 off) between the A2 and A3 stocks and have already worn through the finish and can see metal(pic included). Is this normal from removal and reattachment?
3. Now along those lines, I recently had a company called "The Gun Cleaners" in Waco, TX clean it in their ultrasonic tank. The representative assured me that they only use environmentally friendly cleaners that "are basically Dawn dish soaps but without the salts." Well, after two runs through the process (they were trying to get the carbon off the barrel which I DO have the expensive brush specifically for that task), my finish is starting to come up. My weapon is now speckled and this was obviously a bad finish to begin with(pic included). Any suggestions on someone to refinish it? I have heard mentioned Arizona Response Systems (which I like because he's an authorized refinishing center for Heckler and Koch, USA, for over 13 years), Investment Grade Firearms (which is a vender of HKPRO.COM, woot!) or "Ghilliebear" at Parabellum Combat Systems (also a HKPRO.COM vender woot!)
4. Along with the refinish, I'm wondering about some of the welds and "workmanship". Most of mine are good looking but the one on the front of the magwell (pic included) is a bit blobish and where the cocking tube is welded, I just wonder if that can be cleaned up a bit? (pic included). I'm also wondering about the piece inside the cage, should it hang down like it does?(pic included)
ANY thoughts ideas or suggestions? I'd really like to have a great shooter and a respectable looking weapon.

Alan
Waco, TX
(crossing fingers on pics- if you click on the ImageShack Album - 7 images it will take you to ImageShack where you can see the full size pictures)










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[kwesi]

Sorry to hear of your problems. I have Coharie SD without these issues. Be more specific as to the cycling issues. Are they extraction problems with a live round trying to load behind a spent case or are you having ejection issues with a spent case caught in the ejection port? Have you checked the tension on the extractor to confirm the extractor spring has weakened? I've been curious as to the quality of your builder because a local seller has a TPM built HK53 for sale.

Keep in mind that the ported barrel is reducing the FPS between 200-225 FPS. I chrono'd mine to determine this. Therefore the NATO hot ammo is probably exiting around 1,000 FPS should cycle fine. That is not to say that something less potent wouldn't also cycle fine.

Have you made sure the flutes are clean? Not sure I've helped but some of the guru's will chime in.

 

[MG34_Dan]

Yep. It looks like you just learned the hard way to never put painted finish items into an ultrasonic cleaner.

I have a Qualified RRPP MP5SD w/Qualified suppressor. It runs 100% with no issues whatsoever on any FMJ round I have tried.

I suggest you contact Curtis Higgins @ S&H or Mike Woodward @ TSC and talk to both about refinishing your SD and working out the kinks. You will not be disappointed with either’s workmanship.

 

[HkCHUCK]

MP5SD.....

Have you replaced the extractor spring? In alot of instances a weak extractor spring is the source of the problem. How does
the extractor look? Is the lip of the extractor intact or chipped? I had some extraction problems with my SD and I replaced the extractor
and spring and it has worked fine ever since. Have you checked the bolt gap? I have a manual upstairs with the acceptable range for
gap but I would replace the extractor spring, if the extractor looks ok, first before I worried about the bolt gap.

Good luck in your troubleshooting efforts

 

[SmokeyWhisper]

Cycling issues seem to be that the spent case is being caught in the ejection port... similar to a short stroke. It does not appear to be trying to load a live round. If it were loading a live round, that would mean that it is going all the way back but as is, the bolt/carrier isn't quite making it back far enough to load a fresh round when using something "less potent." The flutes at the time were clean as in there was no obstruction or debris preventing proper porting of gasses besides very mild carbon suit. I was thinking that the buffer spring, being brand new, had just not been "worked in" but then again, I don't think that Hk would design a spring that had to be broken in before anyone would put their life on the line with it. As for the extractor spring, it was new with the gun, less than 1000 rounds using it, its tight with tension. I will go out within the next couple days and see if I can get it on video and get some still pics to share.

Sorry to hear of your problems. I have Coharie SD without these issues. Be more specific as to the cycling issues. Are they extraction problems with a live round trying to load behind a spent case or are you having ejection issues with a spent case caught in the ejection port? Have you checked the tension on the extractor to confirm the extractor spring has weakened? I've been curious as to the quality of your builder because a local seller has a TPM built HK53 for sale.

Keep in mind that the ported barrel is reducing the FPS between 200-225 FPS. I chrono'd mine to determine this. Therefore the NATO hot ammo is probably exiting around 1,000 FPS should cycle fine. That is not to say that something less potent wouldn't also cycle fine.

Have you made sure the flutes are clean? Not sure I've helped but some of the guru's will chime in.

Despite the tons of information I've read on here, sometimes we doom ourselves to "learn the hard way." Lesson learned though in my defense, I did not know that it was "painted." There are a number of ways to coat a firearm which I am just not that familiar with. Love older parkerized stuff for easy "brake cleaner" cleaning but I did think enough to use the proper cleaning chemicals- I just wasn't %100 on the ultrasonic cleaning as it is new to me and I wanted to try it out. Thank your for sure with the recommendations... I will look into it.

Yep. It looks like you just learned the hard way to never put painted finish items into an ultrasonic cleaner.

I have a Qualified RRPP MP5SD w/Qualified suppressor. It runs 100% with no issues whatsoever on any FMJ round I have tried.

I suggest you contact Curtis Higgins @ S&H or Mike Woodward @ TSC and talk to both about refinishing your SD and working out the kinks. You will not be disappointed with either’s workmanship.

 

[SmokeyWhisper]

Extractor spring and extractor look tip top with minor "rub" wear from contact with the brass. NO chips and there is an even gap underneath the lip of the extractor for the rim of the case. It got me to thinking so I did a quick function check. Loaded 10 rounds, SAFETY ON, slapped it closed and then forceably and quickly opened the bolt as would happen during live fire to watch the ejections. 5 out of 10 flew out, the other 5... not so much. Then I pulled the trigger pack out and took a closer look at the ejector lever and compared it to one on HKPARTS.NET.... this is what I found. They aren't the same!!!! ANYONE HAVE AN OPINION ON THIS? Does it matter that they aren't identical?



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MP5SD.....

Have you replaced the extractor spring? In alot of instances a weak extractor spring is the source of the problem. How does
the extractor look? Is the lip of the extractor intact or chipped? I had some extraction problems with my SD and I replaced the extractor
and spring and it has worked fine ever since. Have you checked the bolt gap? I have a manual upstairs with the acceptable range for
gap but I would replace the extractor spring, if the extractor looks ok, first before I worried about the bolt gap.

Good luck in your troubleshooting efforts

 

[CHUCK_in_IN]

Sounds like you are using crap for ammo except the 124gr NATO. That is what the SD was intended to eat. If it runs with that then keep using it. Sounds like a no brainier to me. I have a S&H MP5sd and have shot 10's and 10's of thousands of rounds out of her and it likes a bit more powerful ammo due to the ported barrel. Your ejector looks like a first generation one but I do not think that is your issue. Just keep a tight extractor spring with the right ammo. Also ultrasonic is a bit of a overkill due to being hard on the finish. The SD is one pain to clean. Just get some dental picks and go at it.

chuck

 

[scottinthegrove]

First check your extractor spring. All it takes is one shell that doesn't eject that pushes the extractor out as the bolt comes forward, pushes the extractor, and bends the extractor spring. Whether you just installed the spring or you have used it thousands of times, once is all that it takes to ruin the extractor spring. With the function problems you have had, it is very likely that the extractor spring has been bent and out of spec.

Remove the bolt group. Push on the edge of the extractor towards the outside with your finger. It should take a fair amount of pressure to move the extractor at all. If it starts to move as you apply pressure, the extractor spring is bad. Another way is to insert an empty shell in the bolt face under the extractor and snap it into place. You should feel resistance and there should be a "click" into place. If the empty shell slides easily into the bolt face the extractor spring is bad.

As far as your recoil assembly, I'd check the Texas Board TEXAS and see if there is someone local to you with a standard full size MP5 clone that functions. Try their recoil assembly in your gun for a few rounds if the extractor spring is good.

BTW, my understanding is an ultrasonic cleaner is bad for any coating that is "applied". A chemical process like parkerizing is fine. But any thing that is sprayed or "painted" on is not good. The guy from the cleaning company should have told you that IMHO. An ultrasonic cleaner is good for bolt groups, but HK style firearms tend to have applied coating over the parkerizing. Personally, if it is just discoloration in the finish, without any rust, Unless you plan to display your SD in your living room, shoot it. Refinish will be that much more money in the gun. IMHO these things are tools. If you had a pristine factory gun, that would be one thing. Hopefully you can get the problem sorted out. Good luck with your SD problem.

Scott

 

[4C Dragon]

Did you contact or send the rifle back to TPM? I have used them on a few projects and been very happy with thier work. As far as the weld on the front of your magwell that is factory if it was built on a 94. I have been very happy with the welds and work from TPM, so maybe you need to spend more time with them fixing the issues.

BTW - It is probably the extractor and or spring. The ejector maybe a little different, but I don't think its much. I ususally keep extra parts for my toys and start adding when a probelm starts until it stops happening. SD's do get dirty quicker and act up on cheap ammo.

 

[SmokeyWhisper]

UPDATE: I did contact TPM Outfitters and he said that he will refinish it for me and check out the ammo problem which is what I'm sure any good Hk armorer would want to do for their client. +1 to that. It may just be a bent or out of spec ejector spring and I'm hoping that it IS something just that simple but MG34 Dan is saying his SD runs off any FMJ he's used and mine only runs off 1. My wild hair guess says that it just needs a slightly smaller roller so that there is just slightly more pressure that hasn't equalized to push the shell faster and farther back to eject it, but that's just me.

scottinthegrove- I did check the extractor spring. Couldn't budge it with a fingernail but a 9mm shell will slip under it with little restriction and there is enough tension to keep it in place. I agree with "it just takes 1 to mess things up" but from my function checks, the guns not having a problem pulling the brass out of the chamber, its having a problem "kicking" it clear like the bolts not going all the way back. I do have a never fired compete bolt head that I compared it to that is displaying the same properties, can't move extractor with fingernail, bullet slides in but is retained.

kwesi- I was unsure about TPM when I first got mine. I kept reading threads (comparing MP5's and SD's) and kept running across the same names, Cohair, Vector, RDTS, etc. What pushed me to TPM was that the are in Texas, so am I. I met Ken (the armorer who built mine) and got to visit his shop. Had some dealer samples there that he uses to measure, compare etc. so that told me that he was looking to make quality... he wasn't just folding flats or something, he had some money into what he worked on and was doing what I would have done. Take something that works, duplicate it and then compare what I made to what was "original" and tweak mine until it is right. Am not trying to up sale you or anything but I was happy to find that one of HKPRO.COM's vendors, RTG, has this on his links page "TPM Outfitters- HK builds, custom work and refinishing of HK style weapons. We have seen some great work from TPM over the years; including my very own G3K." That was the "okay, I'll pick him" moment for me.

THANKS EVERYONE for suggestions or ideas! I do so much appreciate the help.

 

[SmokeyWhisper]

Agree %100 with you. My TPM welds look very well done, it was just that one on the magwell that looked way different from the others and I do believe that it was built on a 94 so that's probably why. I did contact him and will get my gun to him asap. As for parts, I just haven't gotten around to getting those few incidental items that can make or brake a day at the range, but I am working on it. I don't think I was using "low quality" ammo, just was avoiding the +P stuff because of cost but I will try some here soon.

Did you contact or send the rifle back to TPM? I have used them on a few projects and been very happy with thier work. As far as the weld on the front of your magwell that is factory if it was built on a 94. I have been very happy with the welds and work from TPM, so maybe you need to spend more time with them fixing the issues.

BTW - It is probably the extractor and or spring. The ejector maybe a little different, but I don't think its much. I ususally keep extra parts for my toys and start adding when a probelm starts until it stops happening. SD's do get dirty quicker and act up on cheap ammo.

 

[4C Dragon]

I have a 9mm SD and a 40 cal SD and both are finicky after shooting 300+ rounds. If I am shooting or someone that knows what they are doing is, it is not as bad, but if someone is soft shouldering cheap ammo in a dirty SD they do not function well. I usually buy and practice with American Eagle 124gr, but if I am hog hunting I use a +P performance round and they never hiccup even when I make a weak shoulder or off footing shot. NATO ammo always runs well, but I just never spend that much. I had a problem not long ago with a MP5 and it was a recoil spring that was causing crazy things to happen. My son's AR15 target rifle starting doubling and I did everything from changing expensive trigger assemblies out until I just replaced the recoil spring on it and solved the problem. I know that is off subject, but little things can affect these machines.

I have used about every HK smith out there and I have been very satisfied with TPM, so try them again or throw some parts at it.

 

[SmokeyWhisper]

UPDATE "FIXED": I got to take my weapon up to TPM Outfitters today in person, talked to Ken and had a ton of questions answered and I would like to make sure that they are also addressed here. He was very friendly and involved in checking things out and putting up with the 1000 questions of my inquisitive mind. (It literally was like a kid in a candy store asking "Whats that? Whats that?")

"1. Mine will only cycle and function correctly with Winchester NATO 124 grain ammo."
ANSWER: Within 10 min of looking at my gun and checking a few things, it was decided that the recoil spring had more tension that a regular MP5 should have and that was causing double feeding/failure to eject. He changed the recoil spring and it was working with cheap box Federal ammo. Reason for spring tension is unknown (and no, I was not using an "F" model anything.)

"2. Is the paint wear normal from removal and reattachment?"
ANSWER: I may have just been "trying to hard" to put the butt stocks on. I watched him do it and he made it look easy but I guess if you do it enough times, you an make anything look easy. This I think is just user (me) error.

3. Gun Cleaning/paint job.
ANSWER: I learned "the hard way" DO NOT put a painted anything in an ultrasonic cleaner. Despite the "mild" solutions, it is ultimately the sonic vibrations that do the work, the soaps just soften up the carbon from shooting. TPM was understanding of my situation and is very graciously going to redo the weapon even though they shouldn't have to. It was done correctly the first time but the dips in the cleaner took its toll. I did post pics of it when I first got it and it looked great.

"4. Along with the refinish, I'm wondering about some of the welds and "workmanship"."
ANSWER: I was shown a few factory pieces to compare to mine and was impressed by the differences. Yes the magwell weld is factory and when you compare some other welds that to his, you can tell he took some time to make them look good. I also must say that the hand guard welds he did on my SD vs. a factory piece looked neater and "cooler".

I don't want to up sell anyone on anything but just talking with Ken at the shop really was inspiring. I told him that I wondered if I was at NASA because they were turning a handguard or something on a lathe and were making sure it was within .00010". Machinists will tell you that doing that is normal but I was still impressed. I do know its NOT common to have "shop tours" and I was glad to just spend what little time there that I did and was able to witness their craftsmsanshop and craftsmanship. TPM gets a +2 in my book. 1 for calming my paranoia and 1 for going the extra mile for me on the refinish.

4C Dragon-your advise was spot on.

MG24 DAN- You will like owning a TPM Outfitter weapon. I certainly do!

Thanks again, I will post pictures when I go pick it up.

 

[scottinthegrove]

Glad to hear that your gun is getting straightened out.

Scott

 

[nuge]

This is reassuring to me since my 1st TPM built unit is in transfer. Thanks for airing it all out here (even the learning curve stuff) and closing the loop.

 

[MG34_Dan]

MG34 DAN- You will like owning a TPM Outfitter weapon. I certainly do!

My SD is a RRPP (Registered Receiver Push Pin) fully transferrable gun manufactured by Qualified prior to the 1986 ban.

Since these pictures were taken, I have had it refinished by Curtis Higgins.

 

[SmokeyWhisper]

UPDATE TO END IT ALL... I got my weapon back from TPM Outfitters with a great looking new finish. I did have pay for the anodizing to the suppressor but I was expecting that. He had changed the recoil/main spring for it to shoot better. It was jamming up on failure to eject with almost every ammo tested. I was able using Winchester NATO 124gr ammunition with zero problems but I was having problems with other brands ejecting which TPM fixed for me.
I FINALLY got to go out to the range with it two weeks ago and am just now getting back on track to sum it all up and put this thread to bed. I tried 5 different ammo types. They all functioned properly and I experienced less failures to eject. Except for the Remington UMC, the brands that I tried all worked wonderfully. 5 being reliable and 1 being problematic, in order that performed best in my SD are:




*5*- Winchester NATO 124 gr. FMJ, (this is the product I have decided to stick with, I just wanted to make sure I could shoot other ammo)
*4*- Blazer 115 gr. FMJ,
*3*- Independence 115 gr. FMJ,
*3*- Remington UMC 250 round bulk pack 115 gr. FMJ,
*1*- Remington UMC 115 gr. FMJ
(there is no *2* because the ammo from the UMC bulk pack functioned well enough/just as well as the Independence and did NOT have any FTE's. I gave it a *3* because it can be used though I would not "rely" on it as much.)

I am now very happy with my repairs by TPM Outfitters and will not ever use sonic cleaning on a "painted" firearm. I'm very happy with TPM's customer service and appreciate their understanding and the help in fixing the paint job and fixing the spring. The spring, I might add, seemed to have been a "fluke". It seemed to be a little stronger than another MP5 even though it was not the "F" type spring and was causing the FTE's. I clean my SD after every firing session and don't put more than 250-300 round through it in a session. I have a copy of the MP5 Armorers manual that I strongly suggest anyone read. I hope that this thread helps anyone in the future with the problems that I've had.

 

[kwesi]

MPSDYinaYJ:missed the fact that you are in TX. I moved to Grapevine recently so if I can ever help in the future just PM me. Remember the SD will drop your velocity by 200-225 FPS so any weaker ammo may be problematic.