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When taking out the MM23e for the morning should you start with brass ammo first than steel cased ammo or other way around?
 

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If this is you first time out would start with NATO spec ammo and the supplied semi trigger pack and shoot a few rounds (20 to a 100), then try steel cases and after everything is running smoothly try the sear pack.

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I've had better luck doing brass cased first, then steel. The polymer on the steel cased will stick in the chamber. That isn't a problem for the succeeding steel cased rounds. I have found that brass cased ammo seems to stick to the polymer and makes for extraction problems. YMMV.

Scott
 

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I couldnt tell a performance difference with my mm23e although i think i did brass milspec first then migrated quickly back to the cheap 55gr steel crap that i'm known for....

but scottingrove is right about lacquer build up occurring on the bolt head, etc with some of the low end ammo. i experience that but so far no issues bc of it.

hh
 

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From everything I've heard and read, that polymer/lacquer sticking in the chamber thing is a load of crap! The lacquer or polymer does NOT melt off. The problem is that steel cases don't expand tightly to the walls of the chamber nearly as well as brass, so the chamber gets very dirty MUCH quicker. This is where the extraction problems come in. It's NOT from melting lacquer or polymer.
 

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From everything I've heard and read, that polymer/lacquer sticking in the chamber thing is a load of crap! The lacquer or polymer does NOT melt off. The problem is that steel cases don't expand tightly to the walls of the chamber nearly as well as brass, so the chamber gets very dirty MUCH quicker. This is where the extraction problems come in. It's NOT from melting lacquer or polymer.
On very hot guns that may not be entirely true, but no one would let me cross section their chamber for me to know for sure ;-)
 

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From everything I've heard and read, that polymer/lacquer sticking in the chamber thing is a load of crap! The lacquer or polymer does NOT melt off. The problem is that steel cases don't expand tightly to the walls of the chamber nearly as well as brass, so the chamber gets very dirty MUCH quicker. This is where the extraction problems come in. It's NOT from melting lacquer or polymer.
Obturate. The vocab word of the day :330: This is indeed true, brass's melt and flow points are much lower than steel alloy...which is obviously why it's used in casings; to obturate and create a tight chamber-seal. That's on the firing side of the cycle though.

When extracting and feeding, I believe it's a bit different than ryknoll3 referenced in the aforementioned post however. The challenges (read:issues) occur with steel when the casing fails to contract as quickly as brass, again due to it's higher melt temp and lower malleability. This results in the casing being TORN from the chamber instead of smoothly extracted. This leads to excessive extractor and chamber wear. These issues are exacerbated by common commercial guns not spending enough time in lock up due to out of spec gas ports, lower carrier material/velocity, and cheaper lightweight buffers.

ETA: not all of my comments deal directly with the OPs question (on a platform/weapon-related basis) sorry for my tangent OP.
 

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You beat me to it, Phil...
 

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hey....thats me... cheap ammo and expensive guns. No different than using unleaded instead of premium gasoline.

The "lacquer buildup" that I'm referring to ...and maybe i'm using the wrong term... is this sticky crap, often not black ...glue tuff that accumulates near the firing pin at the bolt head after shooting a couple hundred rounds. No doubt it's there. I see it when I clean my guns from shooting only certain ammo. Now, I'm not commenting on whether steel is worse than Al...or that the buildup has caused me issues. I just see it. I'll shoot a pic of it the next time I'm cleaning and yall can be the judge...

-HH
 

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$10,000+ gun, cheap surplus ammo. Yes, that sound about right to me.
Why would the price of the gun factor in? The $10K+ gun would be no different than the HK-33 I got in the late '80s for $600. The 223 surplus I've been feeding it has been great. Certainly no worse than the commercial 223 available at better than double the price.

I'll run surplus whenever I get the chance. Maybe if you re-phrased it as running "junk surplus" ammo, we'd agree.
 

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Obturate. The vocab word of the day :330: This is indeed true, brass's melt and flow points are much lower than steel alloy...which is obviously why it's used in casings; to obturate and create a tight chamber-seal. That's on the firing side of the cycle though.

When extracting and feeding, I believe it's a bit different than ryknoll3 referenced in the aforementioned post however. The challenges (read:issues) occur with steel when the casing fails to contract as quickly as brass, again due to it's higher melt temp and lower malleability. This results in the casing being TORN from the chamber instead of smoothly extracted. This leads to excessive extractor and chamber wear. These issues are exacerbated by common commercial guns not spending enough time in lock up due to out of spec gas ports, lower carrier material/velocity, and cheaper lightweight buffers.

ETA: not all of my comments deal directly with the OPs question (on a platform/weapon-related basis) sorry for my tangent OP.
Does your extraction theory work with fluted chambers? The fluted chamber provided a consistent case force on the bolt head between different case materials. That is how the gun can extract reliably. If not for the flutes then the forces exerted on the bolt would vary between case materials and not provide reliable extraction.

chuck
 

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I shot at least 5K rounds of Wolf .223 last year. It's a little dirty but who cares. I had one failure to extract in my Shrike but that was after over 600 round without cleaning. I hit it with a chamber brush and I was back to shooting. I've never had any problems in a AR or HK rifle. The steel cases are soft. They are easier to re size than brass. I've reloaded some of the boxer primed Wolf. You have to crimp the bullets pretty hard. The case neck tension is less than brass. I would reload more of it but I don't like to adjust my dies. The steel case seem to spring back more than brass.
 

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Does your extraction theory work with fluted chambers? The fluted chamber provided a consistent case force on the bolt head between different case materials. That is how the gun can extract reliably. If not for the flutes then the forces exerted on the bolt would vary between case materials and not provide reliable extraction.

chuck
I have no idea about fancy-fluted chambers. I think you missed the part where I said:
ETA: not all of my comments deal directly with the OPs question (on a platform/weapon-related basis) sorry for my tangent OP.
And it's not a thoery, it's a proven fact that brass contracts quicker allowing for smoother extraction. This underlying issue is then exacerbated, as I noted, on guns with out of spec ports, extactors, buffers, etc.
 

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I have no idea about fancy-fluted chambers. I think you missed the part where I said:

And it's not a thoery, it's a proven fact that brass contracts quicker allowing for smoother extraction. This underlying issue is then exacerbated, as I noted, on guns with out of spec ports, extactors, buffers, etc.
Going one step further (plus the original posters is using a fluted chamber gun) one of the initial reason for fluted chambers was to balance out the extraction force between brass and steel, the brass has easier extraction but tends to deform more into the flutes thus helping balance the extraction force between brass and steel with out having to resort to lube on the case etc. as seen in some of the advanced ignition full auto, in particular light cannon. Once one has a consistent extraction force, then the weapon system can be designed to work with that extraction force (more or less gas, different springs, change the bolt weight or for HKs adjust the locking pieces angles). Easier or harder extraction force is not necessarily better, just having it in the range that the firearm is designed for, is what is important. Reference the book Full Circle for details - Long Mountain Outfitters - Books - View Item - Full Circle - A Treatise on Roller Locking )
 

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I have no idea about fancy-fluted chambers. I think you missed the part where I said:


And it's not a thoery, it's a proven fact that brass contracts quicker allowing for smoother extraction. This underlying issue is then exacerbated, as I noted, on guns with out of spec ports, extactors, buffers, etc.

I got the point that your answer was totally useless to the OP question. So in your mind what was your point exactly?

Chuck
 
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