HKPRO Forums banner

1 - 17 of 17 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
141 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
After having so many problems with the new T-series 127gr +p+ RA9TA (http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-handg...ble-p7m8s-ranger-127gr-p-ra9ta-t-series.html ), we decided to test fire some Buffalo Bore 124gr +p+ flat nosed FMJ's in two different P7M8's. In total 20 rounds were fired per P7M8.

On the positive side, the Buffalo Bore did not have any of the T-series type failures. There were no failures to feed, and the slide always locked back after the last round.

On the negative side, the Buffalo Bore's accuracy was about 'minute of dinner plate' at 25 yards from a standing position. Moreover, despite Buffalo Bore's claimed use of low flash powders, the muzzle flash from the round was noticeable enough to obscure the front site picture. The Buffalo Bore had the brightest / most distracting flash of any round I have ever fired in a P7M8 at an indoor range.

Unfortunately, there were a few more negatives with the Buffalo Bore loading. In the sunlight, it was clear that the brass had corrosion spots on it. The brass was also only marked +p, instead of +p+; apparently because of a shortage of +p+ marked 9mm brass. One last negative was that some of the recovered brass had dented case mouths after firing.

Overall, even though the Buffalo bore had no cycling issues during the 40 rounds fired; the poor precision; the bright muzzle flash; and the less than stellar condition of the brass; makes it a non-starter for me. Paying over $1 per round for this stuff seems like a rip-off.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,785 Posts
Interesting.

"Minute of dinner plate" from a standing position at 25 yards....what do you usually shoot at that distance, standing, with the P7M8? Did you have any other ammo on hand to compare in the same outing? Without doing such, you're not saying much since it could have been you.

I've fired +p+ Buffalo Bore in 115gr and 124gr in 9mm, as well as .380. I never noticed any flash greater than any other flash-suppressed load.

The Brass on one batch of 124gr Buffalo Bore was dirty, but not corroded. It had finger prints and stuff on it. The rest of the BB I've had has been nice clean brass. Corrosion? That's ****** up. I'd be sending him an email with pictures asking for my money back on that alone....I'd also mention that he used the wrong powder!

The dented case mouth isn't the ammo's fault, and is not the norm for BB (speaking from experience in firing it from a P7 as well as other guns).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
141 Posts
Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
usually at 25 yards with good ammo, I expect to see is 3-5 rounds in a fist sized area, with 1-2 flyers out at dinner plate distance, and the rest somewhere in between.
And yes, I did shoot other ammo too; specifically, I shot some Ranger 124 gr +p encapsulated FMJ. There was also lack of precision with the Ranger ammo, but it was more or less 1/2 to 3/4 Minute of Dinner plate (but it only cost me 20cents per round).

I'll blame the dented brass, on the soft starline brass they used in this load.


All in all, 40 rounds of the Buffalo Bore was enough to tell me it was not worth the money to buy any more of the 124gr +p+ FMJ-FN; now if they dropped the price of the stuff from $1.25 per round to $0.20 per round it might be a different matter. But, nothing about this ammo even comes close to being worth even 50cents per round, much less the $1.25 they actually charge.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,785 Posts
tktm, thanks for the response.

usually at 25 yards with good ammo, I expect to see is 3-5 rounds in a fist sized area, with 1-2 flyers out at dinner plate distance, and the rest somewhere in between.
And yes, I did shoot other ammo too; specifically, I shot some Ranger 124 gr +p encapsulated FMJ. There was also lack of precision with the Ranger ammo, but it was more or less 1/2 to 3/4 Minute of Dinner plate (but it only cost me 20cents per round).
What I'm getting at is that in order to draw any conclusions, you need a control. You only have variables unless you have previously existing data sets on the accuracy of Ranger 124gr +p eFMJ in that specific P7M8.

I'll blame the dented brass, on the soft starline brass they used in this load.
Dented brass is a function of the gun. If a gun is going to dent one hardness of brass, it will dent all brass. The softness of the brass is not a factor.....intensity of function as developed by pressures/inertia of the round, extractors, recoil springs and ejectors are all infinitely more relevant than the softness of brass.

All in all, 40 rounds of the Buffalo Bore was enough to tell me it was not worth the money to buy any more of the 124gr +p+ FMJ-FN; now if they dropped the price of the stuff from $1.25 per round to $0.20 per round it might be a different matter. But, nothing about this ammo even comes close to being worth even 50cents per round, much less the $1.25 they actually charge.
Obviously not worth it for your gun. At the same time, you've most definitely got the most interesting P7 with the most amount of.......nuances.....that I've ever read about. The fact that your P7 is so picky would lead me to look into possible problems with the gun. Always good to know what your gun likes to shoot, and obviously a very important thing to do as your discussions have demonstrated.....but I wouldn't stop there.

As to the price, I buy mine when it goes on sale. :wink: Picked up 220 rounds of Buffalo Bore ammo for $16 per 20 from Cabelas a few months ago....and then used a $20 rebate for even more sweetness. Definitely pricey stuff at retail, though.

Did you email Buffalo Bore/Jim Sundles about the corroded brass or extreme flash? His flash suppressed powder is as good as any. If it wasn't being suppressed, then that means it was defective and you should be compensated. Same if the brass was corroded. I wouldn't even have fired the ammo if it was corroded....that's way unsafe, and just asking for health concerns.

Curious, out of all the loads you've tested for serviceability:

How many loads have you found to work well enough to use for carry?

How many loads have you found to be unserviceable?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,040 Posts
After having so many problems with the new T-series 127gr +p+ RA9TA (http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-handgun-talk/155064-not-reliable-p7m8s-ranger-127gr-p-ra9ta-t-series.html ), we decided to test fire some Buffalo Bore 124gr +p+ flat nosed FMJ's in two different P7M8's. In total 20 rounds were fired per P7M8.

On the positive side, the Buffalo Bore did not have any of the T-series type failures. There were no failures to feed, and the slide always locked back after the last round.

On the negative side, the Buffalo Bore's accuracy was about 'minute of dinner plate' at 25 yards from a standing position. Moreover, despite Buffalo Bore's claimed use of low flash powders, the muzzle flash from the round was noticeable enough to obscure the front site picture. The Buffalo Bore had the brightest / most distracting flash of any round I have ever fired in a P7M8 at an indoor range.

Unfortunately, there were a few more negatives with the Buffalo Bore loading. In the sunlight, it was clear that the brass had corrosion spots on it. The brass was also only marked +p, instead of +p+; apparently because of a shortage of +p+ marked 9mm brass. One last negative was that some of the recovered brass had dented case mouths after firing.

Overall, even though the Buffalo bore had no cycling issues during the 40 rounds fired; the poor precision; the bright muzzle flash; and the less than stellar condition of the brass; makes it a non-starter for me. Paying over $1 per round for this stuff seems like a rip-off.
I've fired a small handful of the 124gr 9mm+P+ BB Sierra rounds in my P7, they were comparable to firing Corbon in recoil. I rarely notice muzzle flash, even when firing high powered short barreled rifles. Even when i used to be an M60 gunner the flash never bothered me, even at night. To me, honestly, this is a hugely overblown issue- but to each their own, opinions do vary.

I have also fired a couple boxes worth of 115gr+P+ Buffalo Bore using the Montana Gold match hollowpoint. This is a conical round with a very hard lead core and a very shallow hollowpoint. It probably only expands to about .40 caliber even when fully 'expanded.' I've shot this round through as much as 15 layers of Kevlar in tests i conducted. I doubt there's a civilian legal 9mm round that offers better performance against kevlar. This would probably be a great choice for trail defense if you're a 9mm guy.

That stuff is loaded to like 1425fps (Browning Hi Power test gun), and is so hot that the brass was actually fire forming to the flutes in my P7's chamber, which caused a not too easy to clear stoppage.

Bottom line, i think that Buffalo Bore's +P+ loadings are too hot for a P7 because of the chamber flutes. I actually got tremendous accuracy out of the Montana gold 115gr+P+ rounds. I like these so much i have a few boxes of them for use in my other 9mm's. Mainly in a trail defense role when i'm walking my old man's mountain property. (There be black bears in dem dare mountains)

If you want good, hot factory ammo try either Federal 9BPLE 115gr+P+ with the Hi Shok bullet (standard load of the ISP for decades) or if you can get it, Speer LEO 115gr+P+ Gold Dot. I use these two rounds in my P7 and get excellent reliability and accuracy out of both. Not only are both of these rounds extremely economical (because they come in 50rd boxes for one thing), but their performance is pretty much comparable to Corbon or whatever. Buffalo Bore says they get their 1425fps rating for their 115gr loading in a Browning Hi power, which is like a 4.9" barrel or something. Both Federal and Speer use a 4" test barrel to generate their 1300fps rating. So out of a 4.9" Hi Power they'd both probably be within 50fps of the Buffalo Bore loading, and equal to Corbon's loads. They both also use nickel plated cases, and they're literally 3-4x cheaper than Buffalo Bore or Corbon DPX.

If you want deep penetrating rounds for trail defense, which is what the Buffalo Bore 124gr+P+ FMJFN is supposed to be for and you want to fire in your P7, i'd recommend either Fiocchi 124gr FMJFN @1250fps or Doubeltap 147gr+P FMJFN @ about 1150fps. P7's are supposed to have problems with 147gr, but mine does fire that load fine. That being said, i think the Fiocchi is probably just as effective, and is again, a mere fraction of the cost.

I don't see a dinner plate sized group at 25yds with super hot ammo as being particularly bad (or relevant). Almost all defensive shootings occur at a range of 7-10 feet (source: FBI).

Never seen any case mouth denting on BB ammo, but i've probably only fired 200-300rds of the stuff in total, in all calibers and weights.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
141 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
TGS,

There was nothing finicky about either P7 shooting the Buffalo Bore ammo. The problem was that the Buffalo Bore ammo did not perform like a $1.25 per round should; too much flash (for a "flash suppressed" round), and not as precise as I would like. When all those things are taken together, it was not a wise use of funds to pursue further testing in hopes that things would some how improve.

In regards to the brass, the corrosion was most visible in sunlight; it appeared as if the brass might have been tumbled to clean it up (hence the need for sunlight to spot it). The case mouths dent from impact; and the softness of the brass plays a part in that.


In terms of suitable ammo; I tend to shoot several hundred rounds of what ever ammo I choose to carry.

In terms of absolute reliability, the Hirtenberger 100grain FL +p+ has had zero failures/issues in any P7M8 I have ever shot.

The original 127 grain +p+ Ranger RA9SXT had a failure rate of 1 in 200 rounds when I shot it (and it shot very precisely). Those failures resulted from the mouth of the hollow point catching on the sides of the chamber. That round did have a studied history of failures in P7M8's.

The new 127 Grain +p+ Ranger RA9TA "T-series" has a failure rate of 1 in 8 rounds; I don't think that version has been studied yet by anyone else in a P7M8.

I can't remember ever having a failure with FMJ ammo of any sort. The IMI line of UZI ammo stands out as being superior in my memory.

But to bring it back to the Buffalo Bore FMJ, mis-marked spotty ammo with flashy "flash suppression", that did not group well, does not make for a good reason to buy several hundred rounds (and spend several hundred dollars) just to see if the situation would improve. On the positive side, it did go bang.

A likely better alternative to the $1.25 per round Buffalo Bore +p+ FMJ would be the 9mm CEPP round from Lapua. But given how hard the CEPP is to find maybe I'll test the Lapua 9mm Combat round instead; its only $0.76 per round.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,785 Posts
I can't remember ever having a failure with FMJ ammo of any sort. The IMI line of UZI ammo stands out as being superior in my memory.
You mean the stuff with the black dot on the bullet, that is meant for certain subguns only and has a chamber pressure of over 50,000psi?

If so, I'd definitely be sending that gun in for a looksie.

About the Lapua ammo, all I can find is something on Grafs for sale at $37 per 50. Do you have any good reading on these? I don't know much about the unique European ammo offerings.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
141 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
You mean the stuff with the black dot on the bullet, that is meant for certain subguns only and has a chamber pressure of over 50,000psi?

If so, I'd definitely be sending that gun in for a looksie.
Now that's funny; can't blame the gun for the Buffalo Bore's flash, corrosion, mis-labeled brass, or the poor precision. Moreover, the P7M8 did cycle the Buffalo Bore just fine.
But if it concerns you, neither of these 2 P7M8's have had the black tip IMI shot through them, but I would have no hesitation to do so.

Based on known velocities, the Buffalo bore is much 'hotter' than the IMI black tip, and probably hotter than the IMI maroon tip; I would surmise it maybe as hot as the Hirternberger L7A1. The L7A1 is the only round I know of where HK stated not to fire it in a P7. However, it is also possible that the Buffalo bore's pressure spike is not as severe; but given the issues I found with the Buffalo Bore +p+ FMJ, its not worth the money to find out.

In regards to the Lapua ammo, it is held in high regard but I have not yet verified that for myself.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
313 Posts
Good read. I'm surprised at the muzzle flash issue. I've used BB standard and +P rounds in my .38 snubbie and they probably have the lowest flash of any ammo I've fired in it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,785 Posts
Did you get a chance yet to contact BB about the defective ammo, tktm?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
141 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Did you get a chance yet to contact BB about the defective ammo, tktm?
I have no plans or desire to contact them. I bought the ammo to test it; I tested it and found out what I needed to know.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
141 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Good read. I'm surprised at the muzzle flash issue. I've used BB standard and +P rounds in my .38 snubbie and they probably have the lowest flash of any ammo I've fired in it.
This was my first experience with Buffalo Bore, so I can't compare it with their other loadings. What I can say with certainty is that the flash did interfere with the frontsight in a way I have not seen other rounds do.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,040 Posts
TGS,

There was nothing finicky about either P7 shooting the Buffalo Bore ammo. The problem was that the Buffalo Bore ammo did not perform like a $1.25 per round should; too much flash (for a "flash suppressed" round), and not as precise as I would like. When all those things are taken together, it was not a wise use of funds to pursue further testing in hopes that things would some how improve.

In regards to the brass, the corrosion was most visible in sunlight; it appeared as if the brass might have been tumbled to clean it up (hence the need for sunlight to spot it). The case mouths dent from impact; and the softness of the brass plays a part in that.


In terms of suitable ammo; I tend to shoot several hundred rounds of what ever ammo I choose to carry.

In terms of absolute reliability, the Hirtenberger 100grain FL +p+ has had zero failures/issues in any P7M8 I have ever shot.

The original 127 grain +p+ Ranger RA9SXT had a failure rate of 1 in 200 rounds when I shot it (and it shot very precisely). Those failures resulted from the mouth of the hollow point catching on the sides of the chamber. That round did have a studied history of failures in P7M8's.

The new 127 Grain +p+ Ranger RA9TA "T-series" has a failure rate of 1 in 8 rounds; I don't think that version has been studied yet by anyone else in a P7M8.

I can't remember ever having a failure with FMJ ammo of any sort. The IMI line of UZI ammo stands out as being superior in my memory.

But to bring it back to the Buffalo Bore FMJ, mis-marked spotty ammo with flashy "flash suppression", that did not group well, does not make for a good reason to buy several hundred rounds (and spend several hundred dollars) just to see if the situation would improve. On the positive side, it did go bang.

A likely better alternative to the $1.25 per round Buffalo Bore +p+ FMJ would be the 9mm CEPP round from Lapua. But given how hard the CEPP is to find maybe I'll test the Lapua 9mm Combat round instead; its only $0.76 per round.
I don't know if you're ignoring me or whatever (?) but as i said, the Fiocchi 124gr FMJFN bullet is damned near as hot as the Buffalo Bore you were shooting and is about 1/4 the price.

Fiocchi 124gr FMJFN: 1200fps (I said 1250 earlier but was mistaken- though that might be from a 4" test barrel, whereas Buffalo Bore gets it's readings from a 4.75" Browning Hi Power)
Buffalo Bore 124gr+P+ FMJFN: 1300fps

The Fiocchi costs about .25 a round.

Ammunition To Go : 1000rds - 9mm Fiocchi 124gr Truncated Full Metal Jacket [9APC] - $239.95
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
141 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
I don't know if you're ignoring me or whatever (?) but as i said, the Fiocchi 124gr FMJFN bullet is damned near as hot as the Buffalo Bore you were shooting and is about 1/4 the price.

Fiocchi 124gr FMJFN: 1200fps (I said 1250 earlier but was mistaken- though that might be from a 4" test barrel, whereas Buffalo Bore gets it's readings from a 4.75" Browning Hi Power)
Buffalo Bore 124gr+P+ FMJFN: 1300fps

The Fiocchi costs about .25 a round.

Ammunition To Go : 1000rds - 9mm Fiocchi 124gr Truncated Full Metal Jacket [9APC] - $239.95
Nope, not ignoring you; just didn't think you had a question. My past experience with Fiocchi tells me that it is sometimes inconsistent from one round to the next; but I've not shot the particular round you linked to. I think the Europeans typically use 6inch barrels for their quoted velocities, so it might not be as hot as the BB. What I would really like to find is someone loading the Lapua CEPP round at +p+ velocities. That would make for a reliable, low ricochet, accurate FMJ.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,040 Posts
I am curious why you seem so fond of the FMJ design? What is the purpose that you're using these loads for?

Do you live in bear country or something? These rounds we've been discussing in this thread are all characterized by tremendous penetration.

I really have no idea what length Fiocchi uses to test it's loads. (Fed and Speer use 4" barrels, but they're US companies). Generally speaking though, Fiocchi loads all it's loadings much hotter than typical US standard pressure ammo. (I think the Euro stuff is all loaded to CIP specs, which is pretty similar to US SAAMI 9mm+P pressure)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
141 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
I tested the Buffalo Bore because it is a hot 124 grain round that might mimic the issues I saw with the 127gr T-series R9TA; the benefit of it being a FMJ is that it reduced the chance of feed failures not related to the pressure aspect. What surprised me about the Buffalo Bore was how ratty the ammo was for the price.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,040 Posts
Doubletap also offers a hot 124gr 9mm+P load, as does Corbon. Both of those should be good rounds to try for your purposes.
 
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
Top