Probably more cost-effective to purchase a factory rifle, unless you can obtain "parts/labor" inexpensively!!! :wink:
Tony
Tony
Build or Buy, HK91?
I'm new to Hk rifles, so plz excuse my ignorance. First, is it better to build a HK91 clone or buy one (PTR91GI)? When building, what cost range would I be looking at? I'm familiar with M14 (LRB) and M1A(Springfield) when it comes to build or buy, and yes, there is a difference. Just wondering if I'm looking at the same kind of differences, in price and quality, with the Hk platform. Also, who does builds and what should I be looking for? I'm wanting a good battle rifle, never know when your gonna need one, and one that I can trust to last even in a worst case scenario. SHTF kind of thing.
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I have both an original and a PTR.. the PTR is a great value
If you figure the going rate for a nice parts kit, that is worth paying a builder to build, with original barrel is over $500, plus $200 for the PTR receiver, plus >$100 for compliance parts, you are almost at the price point of a new PTR without even paying for the builder to build it.
if you are going to own only one, have it built. if it is the first of many, buy it because you will want the next one built...
Are you sure .308 caliber would be best? I'd imagine with your .308 experience with the M14/M1A experience you are very familiar with the recoil. To my knowledge no industrialized nation uses .308/7.62X51 as their standard rifle caliber. Personally I would think that .223/5.56X45 would be a better caliber choice as far as cost. I find recoil to be much lower with .223 than with .308. Also the price of ammo is around 1/2 as much so training costs would be much lower. You could "roll the dice" on a C93 for $500. The issue with the C93 has been bolt gap due to barrel diameter, pressing, and pinning. The search function can give you much more detail. A new RCM cold hammer forged barrel is $225. If the C93 needed a new barrel, would think repressing the new barrel, paddle mag install, and refinish wouldn't be that much more.I'm new to Hk rifles, so plz excuse my ignorance. First, is it better to build a HK91 clone or buy one (PTR91GI)? When building, what cost range would I be looking at? I'm familiar with M14 (LRB) and M1A(Springfield) when it comes to build or buy, and yes, there is a difference. Just wondering if I'm looking at the same kind of differences, in price and quality, with the Hk platform. Also, who does builds and what should I be looking for? I'm wanting a good battle rifle, never know when your gonna need one, and one that I can trust to last even in a worst case scenario. SHTF kind of thing.
Custom done anything is always more than buying the standard off the shelf. Of course a custom build would tend to have much higher quality, but what is your price point? A .308 build will tend be much more than a .223 build as parts are more money. If you are looking for scoped precision type rifle, like with any other platform, it will be very pricey. Please let us know more detail of what you ultimately want from this roller locked rifle.
Scott
actually, 308 parts are far more readily available. something like 60 countries adopted the rifle in 308, only 2 or 3 adopted it in 223.
PTR receivers are also much easier to obtain than SW receivers.
if you are looking for a reliable factory build off the shelf, PTR has a lot more going for it with their 308 builds, than Century does with the 223 rifles they are turning out. a very high percentage of the Century rifles need to be re-barreled. a very small percentage of PTR rifles are now exhibiting problems. also, PTR does a better job of standing behind their warranty, in my opinion.
as for 308 recoil, if he is used to his M1A, a HK91 clone with proper bolt gap will not recoil any more. with a heavy buffer it will recoil the same or maybe a little less. i would contend that if 308 recoil is beating you up, and you aren't using a collapsable stock or a FA sear, you are holding the rifle down too far in the pocket of your shoulder.
i shoot A LOT of 308, also a lot of 762x54R from Finn Mosins, and i do fine. i typically do 120 rounds of 308 per session, or 60 rounds of 762x54R from a bolt gun, per session.
agreed that 223 and 762x39 recoil is imperceptible, but i don't think that should be the deciding criteria
PTR receivers are also much easier to obtain than SW receivers.
if you are looking for a reliable factory build off the shelf, PTR has a lot more going for it with their 308 builds, than Century does with the 223 rifles they are turning out. a very high percentage of the Century rifles need to be re-barreled. a very small percentage of PTR rifles are now exhibiting problems. also, PTR does a better job of standing behind their warranty, in my opinion.
as for 308 recoil, if he is used to his M1A, a HK91 clone with proper bolt gap will not recoil any more. with a heavy buffer it will recoil the same or maybe a little less. i would contend that if 308 recoil is beating you up, and you aren't using a collapsable stock or a FA sear, you are holding the rifle down too far in the pocket of your shoulder.
i shoot A LOT of 308, also a lot of 762x54R from Finn Mosins, and i do fine. i typically do 120 rounds of 308 per session, or 60 rounds of 762x54R from a bolt gun, per session.
agreed that 223 and 762x39 recoil is imperceptible, but i don't think that should be the deciding criteria
You are right that many more countries did have a G3 in .308. But that was in the late 50's early 60's. Wikipedia lists 15 countries that used a 33/33 variant. My statement "To my knowledge no industrialized nation uses .308/7.62X51 as their standard rifle caliber." has do do with today, not 50 years ago. For me an average range session is more like 300-800 rds of 5.56X45. I find, the more I pull the trigger, the better I get pulling the trigger and hitting what I am trying to hit. At today's ammo price, I would imagine I'd spend less on 300 rds of .223 than would be spent on 160 rds of .308. If that is what you choose to shoot, more power to you.actually, 308 parts are far more readily available. something like 60 countries adopted the rifle in 308, only 2 or 3 adopted it in 223.
PTR receivers are also much easier to obtain than SW receivers.
if you are looking for a reliable factory build off the shelf, PTR has a lot more going for it with their 308 builds, than Century does with the 223 rifles they are turning out. a very high percentage of the Century rifles need to be re-barreled. a very small percentage of PTR rifles are now exhibiting problems. also, PTR does a better job of standing behind their warranty, in my opinion.
as for 308 recoil, if he is used to his M1A, a HK91 clone with proper bolt gap will not recoil any more. with a heavy buffer it will recoil the same or maybe a little less. i would contend that if 308 recoil is beating you up, and you aren't using a collapsable stock or a FA sear, you are holding the rifle down too far in the pocket of your shoulder.
i shoot A LOT of 308, also a lot of 762x54R from Finn Mosins, and i do fine. i typically do 120 rounds of 308 per session, or 60 rounds of 762x54R from a bolt gun, per session.
agreed that 223 and 762x39 recoil is imperceptible, but i don't think that should be the deciding criteria
In the OP, the basic premiss was more of a general purpose rifle. My experience has been that a standard .308 rifle is heavier and longer than a standard .223 rifle. Certainly, .308 from a rest can reach out further than .223. But in close quarters, and short distances, .223 rifle is lighter with quicker follow up shots. My understanding is the Germans, during WW II, did a great deal of research on engagement distances. Most engagements are 300 yards or less. That is why they developed the first assault rifle which used a medium power cartridge. So unless you live in an open desert a medium power rifle cartridge would tend to have more advantages than a full power cartridge in most situations. That is why every industrialized nation that I'm aware of uses a medium power rifle round for their standard rifle cartridge. Of course whatever caliber/rifle you wish to shoot, I think that is great. YMMV.
Scott
Yes that was back when marksmanship was more important than spray and prayYou are right that many more countries did have a G3 in .308. But that was in the late 50's early 60's. Wikipedia lists 15 countries that used a 33/33 variant. My statement "To my knowledge no industrialized nation uses .308/7.62X51 as their standard rifle caliber." has do do with today, not 50 years ago. For me an average range session is more like 300-800 rds of 5.56X45. I find, the more I pull the trigger, the better I get pulling the trigger and hitting what I am trying to hit. At today's ammo price, I would imagine I'd spend less on 300 rds of .223 than would be spent on 160 rds of .308. If that is what you choose to shoot, more power to you.
In the OP, the basic premiss was more of a general purpose rifle. My experience has been that a standard .308 rifle is heavier and longer than a standard .223 rifle. Certainly, .308 from a rest can reach out further than .223. But in close quarters, and short distances, .223 rifle is lighter with quicker follow up shots. My understanding is the Germans, during WW II, did a great deal of research on engagement distances. Most engagements are 300 yards or less. That is why they developed the first assault rifle which used a medium power cartridge. So unless you live in an open desert a medium power rifle cartridge would tend to have more advantages than a full power cartridge in most situations. That is why every industrialized nation that I'm aware of uses a medium power rifle round for their standard rifle cartridge. Of course whatever caliber/rifle you wish to shoot, I think that is great. YMMV.
Scott
I already have my .223 rifles, now I'm just trying to get my .308 rifles built up.
I'd get a kit and have Ghilliebear build it. He hasn't built anything for me yet but he seems to have a stellar record for good builds. You can get a parts kit with an RCM barrel and have him build it up. You can have your paddle mag installed at the time of the build too. This is the route I chose to go with the exception of having a vigin FMP barrel for the build. I still need a few parts and then I'll finally be sending it off.
I know PTR takes care of their customers but you shouldn't have to worry about any of that with good condition German or contract parts for a build. My .02.
I know PTR takes care of their customers but you shouldn't have to worry about any of that with good condition German or contract parts for a build. My .02.
1. the quantities of HK-design 556x45 rifles put into service vs. 762x51 rifles put into service (G3 vs. 33/93) cannot be compared, to my knowledge. there just aren't near as many 556x45 parts as 762x51 parts for HK clones.You are right that many more countries did have a G3 in .308. But that was in the late 50's early 60's. Wikipedia lists 15 countries that used a 33/33 variant. My statement "To my knowledge no industrialized nation uses .308/7.62X51 as their standard rifle caliber." has do do with today, not 50 years ago. For me an average range session is more like 300-800 rds of 5.56X45. I find, the more I pull the trigger, the better I get pulling the trigger and hitting what I am trying to hit. At today's ammo price, I would imagine I'd spend less on 300 rds of .223 than would be spent on 160 rds of .308. If that is what you choose to shoot, more power to you.
In the OP, the basic premiss was more of a general purpose rifle. My experience has been that a standard .308 rifle is heavier and longer than a standard .223 rifle. Certainly, .308 from a rest can reach out further than .223. But in close quarters, and short distances, .223 rifle is lighter with quicker follow up shots. My understanding is the Germans, during WW II, did a great deal of research on engagement distances. Most engagements are 300 yards or less. That is why they developed the first assault rifle which used a medium power cartridge. So unless you live in an open desert a medium power rifle cartridge would tend to have more advantages than a full power cartridge in most situations. That is why every industrialized nation that I'm aware of uses a medium power rifle round for their standard rifle cartridge. Of course whatever caliber/rifle you wish to shoot, I think that is great. YMMV.
Scott
2. the topic of 556x45 vs 762x51 is another topic for another thread. i'll suffice to say that after being required to carry an M16A2 rifle for 4 years, my choice is to instead arm myself with a 762x51. G3, M14, FAL clone, in that order.
If you had the skillz to build it yourself, you could save a crapload of jing. I put together a 51K from a bare receiver and a $200 I.O. Paki G-3 kit and I bet I didn't spend more than $6-700 bucks.
However... it definitely sounds like you aren't going to be building it yourself. I'd just buy a used 91 or clone and call it done.
However... it definitely sounds like you aren't going to be building it yourself. I'd just buy a used 91 or clone and call it done.
It seems that the original poster wants 7.62X51. Sorry that I opened up the 7.62X51 verses 5.56X45. I didn't get that from the OP. As far as shear numbers, my understanding is that the K98 was the most prolific firearm ever produced. Of course most would say that a semi auto would beat a bolt action any day of the week. But if shear #s produced is the criteria then a bolt action must be the best. (He says with sarcasm.) Far be it for me to thumb my nose at someone else's choice. If 7.62X51 is what you want to shoot, more power to you.
As with any other caliber, you get what you pay for. My experience has been that a custom build would be of higher quality than buying a production clone. Of course a custom build would be more money. Since I already have many 30 rd GI mags, HK high reliability mags, and Beta C drums for the M16 platform, I had my 5.56X45 roller locked clones built with SW 53/93 AR receivers. Just my parts cost alone was almost double that of a C93. The RCM CHF and Nitrited barrels are a big step up from a buttoned rifled SS barrel. Good luck with your 7.62X51 rifle project. YMMV.
Scott
As with any other caliber, you get what you pay for. My experience has been that a custom build would be of higher quality than buying a production clone. Of course a custom build would be more money. Since I already have many 30 rd GI mags, HK high reliability mags, and Beta C drums for the M16 platform, I had my 5.56X45 roller locked clones built with SW 53/93 AR receivers. Just my parts cost alone was almost double that of a C93. The RCM CHF and Nitrited barrels are a big step up from a buttoned rifled SS barrel. Good luck with your 7.62X51 rifle project. YMMV.
Scott
I agree with you Scott. I'm just trying to get an idea of cost, parts and all the other things that go along with it, to get a better understanding of it. Yes I could go and buy a clone and be happy, but I don't want to find myself with an expensive paper weight if it turns out to be a lemon and I'm trying to avoid the headache if it is. I haven't heard of too many people having one built either, so I'm curious to how they turned out.As with any other caliber, you get what you pay for. My experience has been that a custom build would be of higher quality than buying a production clone. Of course a custom build would be more money. Since I already have many 30 rd GI mags, HK high reliability mags, and Beta C drums for the M16 platform, I had my 5.56X45 roller locked clones built with SW 53/93 AR receivers. Just my parts cost alone was almost double that of a C93. The RCM CHF and Nitrited barrels are a big step up from a buttoned rifled SS barrel. Good luck with your 7.62X51 rifle project. YMMV.
Scott
I agree with you Scott. I'm just trying to get an idea of cost, parts and all the other things that go along with it, to get a better understanding of it.
Then by all means call this number and talk to Jeff. He'll give you all the info you want and price it all out for you as well.
918-781-3939
Thanks Shattered Mind.
If anyone has any pictures of his work, I would like to see them.:62:
If anyone has any pictures of his work, I would like to see them.:62:
http://www.hkpro.com/forum/parabell...44-hk-pro-customers-gallery-present-past.htmlThanks Shattered Mind.
If anyone has any pictures of his work, I would like to see them.:62:
I recommend buying a PTR 91 or vintage HK91. I am building a clone right now. But it takes certain skills to build a clone from parts: welding, ability to use and have access to a 12 ton press or more, and ability to machine parts where applicable. Unless you buy a receiver flat and bend it yourself, heat treat it, and weld, where required, it is a money loser. The only reason I am building one is because I happened to come in to a number of very cheap parts and I am building it a certain way that gives it a retro look. Something you cannot buy off the shelf. So there has to be other than economic reasons to build an HK91.
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