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The Librarian
MP5-N and HK23E-K
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Ask yourself this, why is HK not getting long guns proofed in Ulm anymore? Suddenly they don't get proof for MR's or HK243's.......despite the guns being exactly the same. Ulm proof house denied an out-of-court settlement in January. Why? The guns are safe, the administrative court confirmed this. Now the case goes to court.
Speculation is perfectly find as long as you indicate it as such, so spell it out, please. What do you think it is? Why isn’t HK proofing their guns anymore?
 

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Premium Member
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231 Posts
Why isn’t HK proofing their guns anymore?
Ulm proof house refuses to proof MR's and and the HK243's. My guess it's something political.

Here's the auto-translate of a letter every Euro distributor got in April this year:

Customer Information Long Arms

Dear Sir or Madam,
In a letter dated February 25, 2019, we informed you that due to security policy developments (return of the NATO states to national and alliance defense / modernization of the armed forces) and the threat situation in Europe (terrorism / violent extremism) there is a high demand from armed forces and authorities. We had therefore decided to postpone civilian long weapon production indefinitely.
At the same time, the situation was exacerbated last year by the fact that the Ulm proof house questioned the CIP conformity of our civilian long firearms MR223, MR308 and HK243. This is incomprehensible to Heckler & Koch, particularly because the proof house has so far accepted and certified these weapons without complaint. To our regret, the proof house rejected a settlement proposal by the Sigmaringen Administrative Court for an amicable settlement in January of this year. In its settlement, the court emphasized the undisputed safety of our long firearms.
It is important for Heckler & Koch to expressly draw attention to this fact at this point: The weapons under dispute are safe without any restrictions and meet the same high load-bearing capacity and accident safety requirements as our military weapons.
Despite the ongoing legal dispute with the proof house Ulm, Heckler & Koch will do everything in its power to ensure that the rejected models can be delivered again next year, or at the latest the year after next. Heckler & Koch continues to repair its civil long firearms without prejudice to this. Excluded from this are the weapon parts which are subject to the firing obligation.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

Kundeninformation Langwaffen DE.jpg
 

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The Librarian
MP5-N and HK23E-K
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5,394 Posts
Interesting...
 

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Premium Member
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It should be noted that it's not quite over yet, though it can be argued that this is most likely the beginning of the end. Spartanat does say that the German Governement and MOD have yet to sign off on this, and even if they do, HK can still appeal and even without that, German courts can still request a review.
 

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Er spricht schlechtes Deutsch...
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I also guess unless there's commercial or foreign interest in the design, I won't be getting a answers to a lot of the questions I've had about the 433, let alone new photos or info.
You seem to think that some other country couldn't possibly find it worthwhile, and couldn't possibly consider it. I don't see things that way at all. But it's got to be a contender, and cost effective, and all the other things. Just cool looking won't get it done.
 

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I hope someone does, but it does seem that the MK556 beat the 433 on price, even though (arguably) it's the better rifle. Beretta 92 beat the Sig P226 in the US M9 pistol competition for much the same reasons. Sig was probably the better pistol, but not enough over the 92 at the 92's price point.

Besides, HK and Haenel (and even FN) have sold rifles to German and European law enforcement and even commercially, and probably sold more than they'd sell to the German Army as well between all of that. It depends on if they think the 433 brings something different to the table than the G36, 416, SCAR, etc.

If HK drop the 433 from their website soon, then it's probably dead. If they see it as a commercial item for civil sales or LE sales (like IWI with the Carmel and Arad), then it might have a future.
 

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H&K can't go bankrupt. I wanted to buy a MR223 A3 when they will show up again.

Ah man. No gun quite comes close to the 416 and it's civ counterparts...
 

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Oh boy, and people ask me why I left Germany... that state has such f*cked up politics...
The BW are shooting in their own leg by replacing a perfectly fine rifle.
 

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276 Posts
If the 433 indeed is convertible to calibers up to .308 Win/7.62mm NATO, it might make an interesting commercial rifle/rifle for other LE and armed forces. But unless this gets challenged from a German Army standpoint, the German Army and Gov't made their bed, and they're going to have to lay in it. Especially given issues they've had with non-HK or Rhienmetall suppliers in the past (though Haenel also seems to be an exception). I can't see a AR-15 (no folding stock) being popular with mechanized infantry, though.
 

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Winner of the tendering procedure "System Sturmgewehr
German Armed Forces"

The "Sturmgewehr" contract award procedure has taken another major step forward. From
the now completed evaluation of the offers by the awarding authority of the
procurement office in Koblenz is with the company C.G. Haenel GmbH a tender winner
emerged.
On 14 May 2020, the basic weapon of the System Sturmgewehr
remaining bidders are invited to submit a Best And Final Offer (BAFO). The deadline for
Bidding ended on 15 June 2020. The bids received from the bidders were
by the awarding authority in the meantime.
From this evaluation the C.G. Haenel GmbH emerged as the winner of the tender.
The result of the evaluation is not yet legally effective. Underlaid bidders are always
the legal way is open.
The decision of the awarding authority is also subject to the parliamentary
Approval within the scope of the 25 million € submission.
Press Release
The necessary documents are currently being prepared, with the aim of
parliamentary referral at the end of 2020.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
 

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The Carecal was designed by a guy on the 416 team if I'm not mistaken. It was "the step in the evolution".

You are also neglecting the political risk here in the States.

Looks like the MK556 (Haenel Defense) is a Germany clone of the HK416. (I guess those 416 patents ran out.)

Overall, I find this news to be excellent opportunity for the US civilian consumer. If German Government won’t buy from HK, they’ll have resort to selling more arms to the USA. Pistol G36C here we come!
 

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So the winning design is another short stroke piston AR? What’s really different between this and the 416? Cheaper and not made by HK, who Merkel apparently hates?
 

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Basically it's cheaper and the Merkel regime seems to have an axe to grind against most German-based gun makers, namely big volume ones like HK and Sig. And to quote from a now closed thread in the HK Long Guns section, I don't see the 433 as innovative. It's basically HK's answer to the FN SCAR and the Magpul Masada/ACR, and basically also an much updated G36. That being said, especially if it's caliber convertible up to .308, it can be argued that'd also be more appealing to commercial/LE/specialist use rather than something for general issue to the German Army right now.

Also, for all the success that FN can claim to have with the SCAR, only two countries I know of use it for general issue, those being Belgium and Portugal. It's found more use (like the 416, which only France and Norway use it for general issue) with law enforcement and armed forces spec ops. I can see the 433 having a similar future if HK want to push it as an alternative to the SCAR and 416.

And that's kind of an established pattern with new SCAR-type rifles. The CZ Bren 2 outside of the Czech Republic and Slovakia is mainly used by the French GIGN. The FB Radom Grot is used pretty much only by Poland, the Howa Type 20 right now is only used by JGSDF spec ops, and the IWI Carmel will likely only see very limited use in Israel, given that the Israeli Armed Forces are happy with the Tavor/X95 and even their held over M4s and M16s. IWI see the Carmel (and the Arad) as like the Galil Ace, basically an export and specialist commercial item.

Does this mean that there might also be a commerical 433 if there's enough demand, at least in Europe (dodging the current Merkel export BS)? Possibly if there's a market and demand. But there's some demand for a semi-auto Carmel as modern SCAR/ACR alternative, but IWI have said they have no firm plans in the near future to make a semi-auto only version. Everything depends on market and how things go with other sales beyond civilian stuff.
 

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231 Posts
This might explain the lack of CIP and antler marks on some MR223A3 uppers imported into the US lately.

Thinking about this......collectors value.....hmmmmm....
US Army's newly issued M110A1 SDMR got a different mark. Is this also related to the disputes? Any idea what this new marking is?
View attachment 272828
Hard to see but if it has BWB on top and a number it's the Bundesamt für Wehrtechnik und Beschaffung, basically the proof house for the Bundeswehr and German police agencies. If it has BMI and B on the bottom it's Erstbeschuss, first proof. If it has BMI on top and a J on the bottom it means Instandsetzungsbeschuss, re-proof.
 
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