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I had taken my conceal cary class in NC then found out I was moving within two weeks. So I did not get the liscence (though the class was nice). Now I live in WA state and only have to register once im a resident (no new tests).

This is where my question pops up. Before this week I had decided that I would want to cary the P2000 (LEM) .40sw but I have come to realise I dont feel comfortable having a round in the chamber without a safety or decocker. I have also after reading much about balastics decided I would feel more comfortable with a .45 for defense so then my options are very limited. USP compact? Are there any other options for a concealable gun chambered in .45 HK or not?

Am I being too picky about the calliber?
 

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I had taken my conceal cary class in NC then found out I was moving within two weeks. So I did not get the liscence (though the class was nice). Now I live in WA state and only have to register once im a resident (no new tests).

This is where my question pops up. Before this week I had decided that I would want to cary the P2000 (LEM) .40sw but I have come to realise I dont feel comfortable having a round in the chamber without a safety or decocker. I have also after reading much about balastics decided I would feel more comfortable with a .45 for defense so then my options are very limited. USP compact? Are there any other options for a concealable gun chambered in .45 HK or not?

Am I being too picky about the calliber?
Yes. This is another of those never-ending debates. Whether it's a .40 or a .45, if you shoot someone with either at the close ranges usually encountered in a home defense situation, you are going to inflict some serious pain. The recipient of two in the chest between the armpits and one in the head is not going to be asking "BTW, were those .40s or .45s?"

AND... if you miss the vitals and hit somewhere else like a shoulder, arm, or leg, it also won't matter, but in the opposite extreme - you might break bones with it, but neither will stop a highly motivated individual intent on harming you.
 

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You may want to proof your post for spelling errors.
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What is your level of experience with firearms? To me not feeling comfortable with a round in the chamber tells me it is not all that much. I have been shooting since around age 4 with my grandfather and handguns somewhere between that age and 13 when I bought my first a Taurus 9mm Beretta 92 clone (in my mother's name and with her consent). That puts my experience somewhere around 17 years with handguns, and longer with long guns.

My recommendation would be for a SIG P245, if you want something small with a decocker, or its larger sibling the P220. SIG is making carry versions of these weapons with shorter barrels and serviceable length grips, I am not up to date with all their names and models but suffice to say they have added to their line tremendously. Otherwise the USP Compact 45 is an excellent choice; one toted by many a user here at HK PRO. There are several choices within the 1911 variations of weapons, (namely Springfield and Kimber) but these lean even more in the direction you claim to be fearful of and that's having a chamber loaded and mandating the hammer be cocked for your first shot. Of course they employ a grip safety, a manual safety and some even an internal drop safety to prevent firing without trigger activation. The Springfield XD on the cheaper side, about half the cost of a SIG or an HK, has three safeties although none are manually activated - a trigger, grip and internal drop safety. Others like the Glock and the fairly new S&W M&P semi autos employ safety systems that are passive and rely heavily on the user's abilities. I personally carry my USP 40C in variant 1, that is DA/SA with a manual safety and decocker function, with a loaded chamber, hammer lowered, and safety off. My recommendation would be for a USP set up this way, or for the LEM version with a constant pull weighted around 7-8 pounds.

I would recommend seeking out some instruction from one of the well known shooting academies throughout the country. In WA State you're close to Clint Smith's Thunder Ranch in Oregon, just over the CA border. Seattle Firearms Academy is another place run by the Hayes, if I got the name right; they appear every now and again in well known gun magazine articles. You will pay for it; have no doubt, probably in the neighborhood of $1000 plus travel, lodging and the cost of ammo. Gunsite and Front Sight are both local to the South West where I'm live, in Arizona and Las Vegas respectively. I attended Mas Ayoob's Lethal Force Institute back in 2000, you really do come out a different and better person on the other side, and to me it was worth it.
 

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The .40 & .45 have a one-shot stop rate of 94% & 96% with good rounds.... You can see that the .40 is extremely close to the .45. and actually gets to 98% with remington 223 which should stir up some debate among the .45 lovers ( and I am a .45 fan as well )
The one thing most people will agree on here is that either bullet when placed in the chest or head will have a very high percentage of effectiveness.

When it comes to .40 vs .45 there are some trades, but neither round is hands down superior to the other in every way....
The .45 packs a little bit more of a punch - the .40 can penetrate more which is nice if you need to return fire at someone hiding behind something while shooting at you.

Read some credible literature on this and than decide which fits your own needs.

I went with an HK USP Compact .40 V1 for similar reasons. I wanted a powerful weapon that would be as compact as possible with a decocker/safety.... The USP compact allows me to carry cocked & locked like a 1911 - Decoked & locked - or simply decocked. This is very versitile, and I practice with all of these varients. It allows me to carry with a round in the chamber at all times - which is the proper way to carry.
For me selecting a round is an easy choice - .40 cal
One nice benefit with .40 is you get on average 25% or more rounds in a slightly smaller package. I like having four more rounds in .40 rather than .45 because I rarely carry a spare magazine.

Attached is a stopping power chart. There are lots of charts out there, and I like this one because it is based on actual case studies - not jello.

http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=0&Weight=All
 

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Discussion Starter #5
You may want to proof your post for spelling errors.
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What is your level of experience with firearms? To me not feeling comfortable with a round in the chamber tells me it is not all that much. I have been shooting since around age 4 with my grandfather and handguns somewhere between that age and 13 when I bought my first a Taurus 9mm Beretta 92 clone (in my mother's name and with her consent). That puts my experience somewhere around 17 years with handguns, and longer with long guns.




I am sorry I did not check for errors I was in a bit of hurry but that is still no excuse.
I am quite comfortable shooting and carrying a handgun. I have roughly two years experience with shotguns and have been shooting rifles since I was 12. Handgun experience is a little less then shotgun (about a year and a half) I am however a very careful person. Part of that is why I want the safety. Not because I doubt my own abilities but the unforeseeable things I would rather protect against. I would just like that extra little bit. As an example some people can walk by the edge of a cliff and feel fine look down at the bottom for a while and enjoy the view. Others get close to the edge and worry about some how falling off. I worry something COULD happen so I would rather be on the safe side.
 

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I carry a P2000/SK .40 LEM with one in the pipe every day and never think twice. If I were you the only thing I would worry about is getting one in the chamber before I was killed in an attack.
 

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.........I would recommend seeking out some instruction from one of the well known shooting academies throughout the country. In WA State you're close to Clint Smith's Thunder Ranch in Oregon, just over the CA border. Seattle Firearms Academy is another place run by the Hayes, if I got the name right; they appear every now and again in well known gun magazine articles. You will pay for it; have no doubt, probably in the neighborhood of $1000 plus travel, lodging and the cost of ammo. Gunsite and Front Sight are both local to the South West where I'm live, in Arizona and Las Vegas respectively. I attended Mas Ayoob's Lethal Force Institute back in 2000, you really do come out a different and better person on the other side, and to me it was worth it.
Another facility I found was Insight http://www.insightstraining.com/us/ I have no experience with them, just found them while looking for something in WA. ;)
 

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I wouldn't say that you were being too picky about caliber, but I would also recommend that you shoot both calibers before making a decision. Don't look at just numbers but see which one you like handling the best. Chances are if you get the caliber that you like shooting, then you will shoot and practice more, which in turn will help you if a self defense situation ever occurs. The 40 vs 45 debate will ever rage on (long live 45!!) but it all comes down to which you are most comfortable with. That is the one that you will be the most accurate with and will cause you to get the most out of your gun.
 
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you need to be picky about caliber b/c the only good CCW is one that you can shoot extremely well. I personally like 9mm and 45 in compact handguns but am not comfortable with most compact 40s. Nature of the recoil throws me off a little. make sure you spend time shooting a compact 45 and stop reading the mountains of useless ballistics figures online :)

So many people put all kinds of faith in one stop shot percentages and I don't understand why - I wouldn't trust any handgun to stop a BG in one shot. Guess I subscribe to the other school of thought where if I have to use a handgun against a BG, I want something that is very controllable and fast for follow-up shots so I can get the best bullet placement possible and drive in a few extra rounds to make sure I got the job done.
 

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but I have come to realise I dont feel comfortable having a round in the chamber without a safety or decocker. I have also after reading much about balastics decided I would feel more comfortable with a .45 for defense so then my options are very limited. USP compact?
Well, I feel the same way as you about a round in the chamber. This kind of statement brings out a lot of comments about how you don't "know enough" or "have enough experience" and whatnot. Realize that some of the same people who think anything more complicated than a Glock is fatally error-prone do not criticize the use of the AR-15, which has a very complex manual of arms. Frankly, you probably know your situation better than we do.

And yes, we all could use more training. It's like Apple Pie.

For what it's worth, I find the USPc V1 in .45 to be a great choice. Chambered, hammer down, safety on is pretty quick to shoot and about as safe as you can get with a round in the chamber. You can also carry in other modes as well.

From what I've read, the .40 is not a big ballistic compromise from .45. However, I find the .45 to be very soft-shooting compared to other .40 guns...

All good options. Hope this helps.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Thank you again for all of the view points. I was went to the range again today (shot my 9mm and .40sw). I love the LEM trigger. Even comparing the 9mm to the .40 I can get much coser groupings in rapid fire with the P2000 (.40 LEM) then i can with my taurus 9mm. Im hoping they have a USPc .45 to rent out (they have over 200 so my guess is possibly). The P2000 Is such an amazing gun I absolutely love it more everytime i shoot it.
 

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Depending on where you are, The Marksman in Puyallup has numerous USP, USPc and P2000 to try out. I know they have a USPc in .45 for sure.
 
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