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The Librarian
MP5-N and HK23E-K
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
What can I say, I research and collect data to share with your wonder folks here. I listed HK’s numbers a few weeks ago in this thread: http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-talk/202604-heckler-koch-gmbh-financial-statements-32.html coming in at 6,955 firearms total for 2015.

Here’s the numbers from some of our favorite clone manufactures (https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/docs/undefined/afmer-2015-final/download):
1. PTR: 4,483
2. Brethren Armament: 200
3. Moore Advanced Dynamics: 56
4. PCS: 48
5. MM: 38
6. IGF: 22
7. DT: 20
8. Bobcat Weapons Inc: 17
9. TPM Outfitters: 9
10. RDTS: 5
11. Vector Arms: N/A
12. Coharie Arms: N/A

Just missing Zenith (MKE) and POF numbers, but import numbers are a little harder to obtain mainly because ATF lists Imports by Country and not the Importer.
 

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The Librarian
MP5-N and HK23E-K
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
The clone market is a very small market. Not nearly as large as it may seem. If anything there were more clones made in 2015 than 2014 and 2013. Mainly because PTR moved their factory so no production numbers for those years. Also Zenith started selling theirs in April 2015.
 

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The clone market is a very small market. Not nearly as large as it may seem. If anything there were more clones made in 2015 than 2014 and 2013. Mainly because PTR moved their factory so no production numbers for those years. Also Zenith started selling theirs in April 2015.
Well I don't know about everyone else but with 41F looming it sure as hell pushed my buying.. I bought a "significant amount" of them LOL
 

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The Librarian
MP5-N and HK23E-K
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
You and many others. Myself included.

Explains why the industry is in a slump right now worst yet, the Hearing Protection Act might lose its funding from industry partners, so I'm planning on doing my part and buying a new Suppressor soon.
 

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You and many others. Myself included.

Explains why the industry is in a slump right now worst yet, the Hearing Protection Act might lose its funding from industry partners, so I'm planning on doing my part and buying a new Suppressor soon.
Yup although I hate to say it and sound like an ass but i'm kind of enjoying the blowout prices on hardware and ammo. Ok I'll go hide now :)
 

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Surprised ptr made so many of basically one gun, a g3/hk91. They came pretty close to what HK did across all models.

Shockwave
 

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The Librarian
MP5-N and HK23E-K
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Not all models. Just the ones they "manufacture" in the USA. Such as MR556, MR762, HK45 and HK45CT.
 

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i thought PTR's sales would have been higher, almost neck and neck with H&K .

Oicani i know you're a numbers man, if you had to speculate, where would you put MKE and POF ?

thank you for your work and time .
 

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The Librarian
MP5-N and HK23E-K
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
HK made less than 7,000 firearms in 2015?
Guess you missed this: Not all models. Just the ones they "manufacture" in the USA. Such as MR556, MR762, HK45 and HK45CT. By manufacture I mean assembly here from German made parts.
 

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The Librarian
MP5-N and HK23E-K
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
i thought PTR's sales would have been higher, almost neck and neck with H&K .

Oicani i know you're a numbers man, if you had to speculate, where would you put MKE and POF ?

thank you for your work and time .
Before PTR moved, in 2012 total numbers were 4,420. Since 2007 their numbers have fluctuated between 2,000-4000.

As for Zenith and POF, that's a hard one. Various people in the industry I've asked range it from a few hundred to a few thousand. If I had to guess, this is a SAWG, the MKE/POF segment imported between 5,000-8,000 units in 2015. As far as sales goes, that's a tougher number to peg.
 

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Guess you missed this: Not all models. Just the ones they "manufacture" in the USA. Such as MR556, MR762, HK45 and HK45CT. By manufacture I mean assembly here from German made parts.
Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying. I was baffled thinking they only made 7,000 total.
 

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Bobcat's been defunct for many years now. They were supposedly DBA Red Rock Arms, whom according to their website, hasn't make any HK style roller lockers since '06. I'm not sure what those 17 guns were, but they weren't HK clones. No clue as to why the ATF would be listing them under that name, unless the FFL still resides under that moniker. Weird.
 

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The Librarian
MP5-N and HK23E-K
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Oddly enough, they still make them and the 17 the made were all exported. In 2014 Coharie made 260 and 2013 was 412 between two addresses in Spring Lake, MI with an additional 178 under Special Weapons.
 

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Now Coharie I knew about, but Bobcat was owned by Andy Bonas, who was supposedly building the guns from Todd's parts on the same premises. There was a big falling out and Bobcat ceased to be, but SW and later Coharie, soldiered on. The guns being exported is "interesting" to say the least. I was in a local manufacturer's shop a few years back for SBR engraving and was told they were current exporting guns for LE in the Middle East. Sounded odd to me, like they were trying to impress me, and you never know what to believe these days.

Reviewing the Red Rock site again, they mentioned that they were working on a 5.56 FAL, so now I wonder if it as that rifle that was made and exported. The rifles list doesn't indicate calibers, so I wonder...
 

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The Librarian
MP5-N and HK23E-K
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I just double checked and Bobcat is still showing the same address from years ago. I checked all the way back to 2007. Didn't realize Bobcat was owned by another person. Interesting, but now I'm wondering if the 17 we indeed HK clones or some other type of firearm.

What even more interesting is where are the Omega clone manufacturing numbers? N/A for 2015.
 
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