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Discussion Starter #1
H&K forum new guy here... though not a new guy to the firearm world.

Recently purchased my first H&K firearm--a Fleming converted MP5--in the midst of the horrible tranfer waiting game now. Out-of-state purchase, and the weapon arrived to my dealer today!

The Form 4 is for the fleming sear, with blank 4h reading "Installed in H&K 43-XXXXX"
I hear I'll have quite a wait before the Form 4 comes back approved, but as soon as it does, I want to SBR the host so that I can use the sear in other host weapons.

I will be meeting my dealer to send out the Form 4 later this week.

Is there anyway to speed up this divorce process? or must I wait for the Form 4 to be processed before sending in the Form 1? I've read that I should make the Form 4 match EXACTLY, to speed up processing, and reduce any chance of there being a review issue.

Second, will I have to engrave the receiver to SBR the weapon and file a Form 1? Are the existing markings on the receiver not adequate to identify the weapon for the ATF?

Thanks for any feedback.
 

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Leave 4h blank on the Form 4 for your Fleming sear.

Submit a Form 1 for SBR at same time as sending in your Form 4 for the Fleming sear.

Yes you will have to engrave your gun with your maker info.
 

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You wait...

If you file a Form 1 NOW and you don't have the approved Form 4 yet, If for whatever reason the Form 1 somehow gets in before your Form 4, it will be outright rejected. You are not the owner of the Form 4... yet.
 

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You wait...

If you file a Form 1 NOW and you don't have the approved Form 4 yet, If for whatever reason the Form 1 somehow gets in before your Form 4, it will be outright rejected. You are not the owner of the Form 4... yet.
He can do whatever he wants with the HK-94. It is not an NFA firearm at this time, so he owns it outright. He can SBR it if he wants. He can weld a BBL Extension on it right now and can then take it home and start shooting it tonight (after 4473 xfer from dealer) or he can sell it to me as a Title 1 firearm or put it in a chop saw and destroy it. He just cannot separate it from the sear in its current config. He has lots of options, there is no need to wait for the F4/Sear before SBRing....
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Should the receiver be engraved before the Form 1 is filed?
As the weapon is in my dealer's possession, it's going to be hard to get it engraved first, as I can't legally possess the gun to engrave it or have it engraved until the Form 4 is approved.

Has the law been broken (creating a non-registered SBR) if the firearm is disassembled? Could I disassemble firearm, leave lower (including sear), bolt, stock, etc with my dealer, and take the receiver for engraving, as I don't possess an entire assembled unregistered SBR? As it was not considered a pistol originally as a HK-94, I suspect this won't work, but thought I'd seek everyone's opinion. Any work arounds for this situation?

Lastly, concerning the engraving--this weapon is being bought into a trust. As an example, my trust name is John C Doe NFA Revocable Living Trust--what is the proper (shortest) abbreviation? Perhaps I should form a simpler trust name, however, I have other NFA items bought into this trust, and would like to keep all NFA items in the existing trust. I'm assuming the abbreviated name of my trust and the city, state are all that's needed for engraving, as the caliber is already engraved on the receiver. Do I need to create a new serial number, or can I use the existing serial identification?

Thanks for the advice and feedback!
 

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He can do whatever he wants with the HK-94. It is not an NFA firearm at this time, so he owns it outright. He can SBR it if he wants. He can weld a BBL Extension on it right now and can then take it home and start shooting it tonight (after 4473 xfer from dealer) or he can sell it to me as a Title 1 firearm or put it in a chop saw and destroy it. He just cannot separate it from the sear in its current config. He has lots of options, there is no need to wait for the F4/Sear before SBRing....
Correct. I would submit the Form 1 on the 94/MP5 now. AND as renegade suggests, I would leave box 4h blank on the form 4 as you're sbr-ing the 94/MP5 and that info is no longer relevant.
 

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Should the receiver be engraved before the Form 1 is filed?
As the weapon is in my dealer's possession, it's going to be hard to get it engraved first, as I can't legally possess the gun to engrave it or have it engraved until the Form 4 is approved.

Has the law been broken (creating a non-registered SBR) if the firearm is disassembled? Could I disassemble firearm, leave lower (including sear), bolt, stock, etc with my dealer, and take the receiver for engraving, as I don't possess an entire assembled unregistered SBR? As it was not considered a pistol originally as a HK-94, I suspect this won't work, but thought I'd seek everyone's opinion. Any work arounds for this situation?

Lastly, concerning the engraving--this weapon is being bought into a trust. As an example, my trust name is John C Doe NFA Revocable Living Trust--what is the proper (shortest) abbreviation? Perhaps I should form a simpler trust name, however, I have other NFA items bought into this trust, and would like to keep all NFA items in the existing trust. I'm assuming the abbreviated name of my trust and the city, state are all that's needed for engraving, as the caliber is already engraved on the receiver. Do I need to create a new serial number, or can I use the existing serial identification?

Thanks for the advice and feedback!
Does not need to be engraved before Form 1 is filed.

Unlike an AR, it is hard to remove the BBL to put it in a lawful configuration. As you point out, if it was originally an SP-89, all you need to do is remove the stock, and it is a pistol. But since it was an HK-94, it cannot be a pistol. If FFL that has gun cannot do engrave, that is a bit of a problem. He could send the whole gun out to another FFL, but that is probably not what you want to do. You may have to just wait till you get the F1/F4 forms back and then take the gun to someone for engraving.

You use the existing SN. Can't help on trust abbreviations, never done it.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Correct. I would submit the Form 1 on the 94/MP5 now. AND as renegade suggests, I would leave box 4h blank on the form 4 as you're sbr-ing the 94/MP5 and that info is no longer relevant.
Form 4 and Form 1 under normal circumstances go to two different addresses, yes? If I were to leave 4h blank on Form 4, how would the office processing the Form 4 know why I made this change? Additionally, if I'm up to modifying the Form 4, while I know it's not relevant, I would still like the Form 4 for the sear to read N/A instead of 9mm for the caliber. If I can make one change, I should be able to change both blanks? If I understand correctly, once the Form 4 is processed and stamp attached, I won't be able to get another 'updated' Form 4 without another $200 transfer.
 

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Form 4 and Form 1 under normal circumstances go to two different addresses, yes? If I were to leave 4h blank on Form 4, how would the office processing the Form 4 know why I made this change? Additionally, if I'm up to modifying the Form 4, while I know it's not relevant, I would still like the Form 4 for the sear to read N/A instead of 9mm for the caliber. If I can make one change, I should be able to change both blanks? If I understand correctly, once the Form 4 is processed and stamp attached, I won't be able to get another 'updated' Form 4 without another $200 transfer.
They do not need to know why 4h is blank, but they are smart enough to figure it out - Sear is no longer installed in said gun.

N/A is not acceptable. NFA firearms must have calibers marked on gun and on Forms.
 

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There is another options if you don't wish your info on the 94 SBR, have a manufacturer file a Form 2. Fill out the Form 4 transferring the sear to you without the host gun info on the paperwork. While waiting the five + months for the Form 4 transfer, have your dealer send the complete firearm to a manufacturer with a copy of the paperwork transferring to to your dealer (Form 3 or Form 4) and a repair letter detailing what the dealer would like the manufacturer to do. The manufacturer can then ship the sear back and file a Form 2 changing the configuration of the 94 to a SBR. The 94 SBR will have the manufacturer's information on it. The manufacturer then files a Form 3 to send the SBR to your dealer. Once the Form 3 is approved, the manufacturer can ship the SBR to your dealer and the wait on the Form 4 begins.

Another option would be to transfer the complete gun to you. Once the Form 4 transfer has been approved, you could do exactly as outlined above. Once the manufacturer receives the complete gun, a copy of your Form 4, and a repair letter, he can ship the sear back to you and you could use it in other host guns. The manufacturer files a Form 2. Then files a Form 4 directly back to you. Since the 94 is your property, the manufacturer is simply changing the configuration from Title I to Title II. If the manufacturer is in another state, a letter accompanying the the Form 4 explaining that the 94 is your property should be included with the Form 4. Once approved, the manufacturer can ship directly back to you.

These options are not quicker, but would avoid having to put your information on the 94. The manufacturer's info would be on the 94. That would avoid the whole engraving issue. Now you could have your dealer send the complete firearm to an engraver that can work on machineguns and go the Form 1 route. Your dealer simply sends the complete gun with the sear, a copy of his paperwork, with a repair letter to the engraver. I'd think that the engraver would be done and ship the gun back long before the Form 4 for the sear and the Form 1 for the SBR are approved and returned. Good luck with your divorce.

Scott
 

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Discussion Starter #11
They do not need to know why 4h is blank, but they are smart enough to figure it out - Sear is no longer installed in said gun.

N/A is not acceptable. NFA firearms must have calibers marked on gun and on Forms.
I understand Form 1 for SBRs must have a caliber clearly noted (on the Form 1 and on the weapon).

However, has the NFA ruled that machinegun conversion devices such as sears must have a caliber listed on the Form 4?
My machinegun conversion device is not caliber specific... but was installed in a caliber specific host when the sear was registered originally.
While shopping for sears, I have seen many Form 4's with "N/A" or all three calibers listed.
For a "warm and fuzzy" I'd like to see N/A or at least all three calibers listed on my Form 4.
 

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I understand Form 1 for SBRs must have a caliber clearly noted (on the Form 1 and on the weapon).

However, has the NFA ruled that machinegun conversion devices such as sears must have a caliber listed on the Form 4?
My machinegun conversion device is not caliber specific... but was installed in a caliber specific host when the sear was registered originally.
While shopping for sears, I have seen many Form 4's with "N/A" or all three calibers listed.
For a "warm and fuzzy" I'd like to see N/A or at least all three calibers listed on my Form 4.
So put N/A on the Form. It is my understanding that the NFA Branch has tightened up on making sure that at least one caliber is listed on the form. So if they kick the form back you can redo it. I wouldn't think there would be a problem in listing the three original calibers (9mm, .223, and .308) on the form. It seems like semantics to me. As long as you have a host in the caliber listed and the sear can be easily converted for use with that caliber, I don't see what the issue is.

Scott
 

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Correct. I would submit the Form 1 on the 94/MP5 now.
How can you say that? By his own admission the married sear MP5 arrived at his dealer. The dealer is the owner at the moment, not him. If the paperwork for the Form 1 somehow gets looked at and approved before the Form 4 it will be rejected out of hand as the Form 1 info doesn't match the present Form 4 on file. HIS name will be on the Form 1 and the dealer will be the current legal owner. It ain't gonna match.
 

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I understand Form 1 for SBRs must have a caliber clearly noted (on the Form 1 and on the weapon).

However, has the NFA ruled that machinegun conversion devices such as sears must have a caliber listed on the Form 4?
My machinegun conversion device is not caliber specific... but was installed in a caliber specific host when the sear was registered originally.
While shopping for sears, I have seen many Form 4's with "N/A" or all three calibers listed.
For a "warm and fuzzy" I'd like to see N/A or at least all three calibers listed on my Form 4.
First off, your Form 4 won't be changed. Nothing is happening with the sear. What you are attempting to do is file a Form 1. That has everything to do with the short barreled 94 and nothing to do with the sear. You list the caliber of the rifle being put on the Form 4, in your case... 9mm if it is a 9mm. Whatever is on the Form 4 must remain the same. If it's listed as a 9mm, and you transfer it to say your son, the paperwork must remain 9mm only. The sear regardless can bounce from host to different caliber host all day. You can file an addendum adding other calibers if you wish. It's not required.

There is no added value or warm fuzzies to be gathered by having the sear registered in more than one caliber. The entire "9mm-.223-.308" caliber thing was aggressively pursued as a marketing ploy. Fleming and Qualified both did this in an attempt to garner more sales... to the point some people think such a sear is more valuable somehow than one marked only 9 mm or 308. Not true. Whatever the gun has on the Form 4 now must remain on the Form. Don't change anything. The ATF is tracking down a large number of guns that had the paperwork altered to make the guns into something they weren't. A large number of M-11/9s were mystically changed into Mag-58s, 1919A4s, etc over a period of years and a bunch of transfers between two shops, one in Arizona and one in Maryland. A lot of you probably remember this. One particular idiot thought he could save $10-15 grand while pursuing a Mag-58 when Oefinger dumped some transferable sideplate guns on the market a half dozen years ago or so. Idiot gun shop said they could beat Doug's price considerably, so he told Doug to take a hike (with his legal sideplate gun) and bought the converted M-11 gun (which of course he didn't know he was buying). Long story short, it was not the best decision he made in his life. To this day, when you see an Oefinger ad on the net, you will notice they say, "*NOTE: All guns are DLO registered, no MAC 10 or other serial numbers used. Will give you a serial number for you to check with ATF." Sure, the guy lost some $60-70K, but Doug also lost a sale. All because of paperwork that has been altered. If you do change the details of a tranfer, you can count on being contacted by ATF to ask why. Worst case, is you'll get a visit and inspection of the gun. ATF is really keeping an eye on the details as of late.

Where was I going with this? Oh yeah...

You don't think any of us are frantically trying to figure out how to add 7.62x25 or 39 to our Form 4s, do you? Swap the sear into a 40, 357 Sig or 10 mm... no worries. Throw a 22 conversion onto it... no big deal. As I said, you CAN file an addendum if you wish. You will get a Form letter back thanking you for helping to keep the Registry up to date and accurate and you can tuck it into your paperwork file along with your original Form 4s.

I did exactly this years ago with a Mac-10. Along with adding several barrel lengths as well. I have the Form letter reflecting the changes made, but my paranoia has largely subsided years ago and no longer carry a copy of the addendum when shooting the gun in public.
 

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He can do whatever he wants with the HK-94. It is not an NFA firearm at this time, so he owns it outright. He can SBR it if he wants. He can weld a BBL Extension on it right now and can then take it home and start shooting it tonight (after 4473 xfer from dealer) or he can sell it to me as a Title 1 firearm or put it in a chop saw and destroy it. He just cannot separate it from the sear in its current config. He has lots of options, there is no need to wait for the F4/Sear before SBRing....
I beg to differ... It is a married sear gun, definitely NFA. On top of that, he is NOT the owner. The dealer is the owner at the moment. Until the Form 4 is approved AND the physical transfer takes place the end purchaser owns nothing except a receipt.
 

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I beg to differ... It is a married sear gun, definitely NFA. On top of that, he is NOT the owner. The dealer is the owner at the moment. Until the Form 4 is approved AND the physical transfer takes place the end purchaser owns nothing except a receipt.
I beg to differ your statement. Just because the NFA registry shows the dealer has possession of the sear dos not mean the owner doesn't own it. What i mean is the dealer can't sell the sear...

For that matter he could go fill out a 4473 and pick the host gun up right now. Just leaving sear with the dealer.
 

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And he would explain having an unregistered short barreled rifle how?
 

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Why don't people just call NFA for questions like these? I've spoke with them a couple of times and always got answers in small easy to understand, and friendly, words.
 

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I dunno... that would be the best way to get advice.
 

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How can you say that? By his own admission the married sear MP5 arrived at his dealer. The dealer is the owner at the moment, not him. If the paperwork for the Form 1 somehow gets looked at and approved before the Form 4 it will be rejected out of hand as the Form 1 info doesn't match the present Form 4 on file. HIS name will be on the Form 1 and the dealer will be the current legal owner. It ain't gonna match.
Simple. The sear is in the registry and the 94/MP5 is not AND they are separate items which will have separate registrations. There will be no "cross-talk" issues between the sear's form 4 and the new Form 1 of the 94/MP5 simply because the 94/MP5 exists only as extraneous reference info on the sear's Form 4. 4h info is not permanent and subject to change anytime......before or after this transfer to the dealer has taken place. This situation is NOT an issue where 2 transfers for the SAME NFA registered item are in the pipeline at the same time.......if it were, I'd also tell the buyer to wait on the transfer to him.

Ownership? The person who has a receipt of payment is the owner.......which as you know the BATF doesn't give a rat's a** about anyhow. Registration and possession is the primary thing BATF is concerned about and the sear is the only NFA item at this point which is registered to the dealer.........not the 94/MP5.

My last qualified sear purchase happened to come with a Vollmer MP5 short bbl'd host listed in box 4h of the sear's Form 4. Because I wanted this sear to be portable as well, I Form 1'd the 94/MP5 while the Form 4 for the sear was in process to transfer to me......just as outlined as above. No problems at all.
 
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