[Manul]

I was browsing hkparts and noticed that the page for the Extractor Axle Pin says "This item needs to be changed each time it is removed per HK".

HK 416 Extractor Pin - HKPARTS.NET

Is that accurate? I don't recall seeing this mentioned in the manual. At $12/each that would make cleaning expensive... (unless you skip removing the extractor for regular cleanings).

 

[Grumpy]

Yea, uh, no.

While it's good to have spares on hand, replacing it every time it's removed is silly.

On the other hand, replacing the EJECTOR roll pin every time its removed is in fact a good idea.

Either HK was HUA when it wrote that part of the manual, or someone misread it.

 

[Americanel]

My think it's how many shots you need to remove the extractor to clean inside!? or just use for example gun scrubber and then fill it with oil? I have already opened two times, when i have buy rifle, for remove all hk oil and put grease and fp10 and after first 50shot for clean. I think it's not necessary open and clean, reasoning i can use gun scrubber for remove carbon and lubricate with oil, consequently has a pin, the spring can work, nothing special, there is no need to remove for clean and lubricate, no?
I'm too mad about cleaning and perhaps for this pin is not good

 

[G3Kurz]

Skip that step - unnecessary as is removing the extractor for each cleaning.
We fired HK416's to 20,000 rounds without ever removing the extractor for cleaning, even during desert testing.
This is one big reasons why the HK416 has an op rod versus gas tube - reduced fouling, less cleaning!
G3Kurz

 

[Americanel]

thank you very much

 

[AGR416]

With all due respect G3Kurz, the DI design also has a piston. The difference between the HK416 and the M16 FOW is the location of the piston and the op-rod.

 

[Grumpy]

With all due respect, completely disregard a good portion of the previous advice.

There is more then "fouling" that can get under an extractor and gum it up. Ensuring that no brass shavings, dirt, gas blowback (especially if shooting suppressed or steel cased ammunition) etc. is under the extractor every time you clean it is a damn good idea no matter how many rounds you fire through it.

Just because a gun *can* do something under the right conditions, doesn't meant that it *will* do it every single time. I also dislike it when people advocate lax weapons maintinence standards. I'm not saying white glove your gun every 100 rounds and wear it out due to over-cleaning, but I AM saying that when you maintinence your weapon, ******* do it right.

Seriously, it costs you nothing to maintinence the extractor, it causes no extra wear on the system, and it's cheap insurance that there's nothing getting caught under the extractor that shouldn't be there. It takes an extra what, 30 seconds during your cleaning schedule to remove, wipe down, and replace the extractor, so really, there is no excuse NOT to remove and clean it.

 

[M995]

With all due respect G3Kurz, the DI design also has a piston. The difference between the HK416 and the M16 FOW is the location of the piston and the op-rod.

From what I heard, the M16 FOW could be referred to as an internal piston b/c the bolt acts as the piston and has a piston head. I think the point that G3 kurz was trying to make by saying that the HK416 has a piston was that "external piston" designs like the HK416 (with piston cup and pusher rod) introduce far less fouling into the bolt carrier group while "internal piston" designs like the DI AR-15 introduce more fouling into the internals like the bolt carrier group. I think when most people mention "piston guns," they are aware that the M16 has a piston (I don't think anyone is arguing that the M16 doesn't have a piston) and what they generally mean by "piston guns" are "external piston systems" (like a piston and op rod assembly or a piston cup and pusher rod in the case of HK's gas operated guns)

 

[Hunter Rose]

I fall in the middle here. If its used as a defensive rifle I would clean the extractor every now and again, but doubt I will take it apart often. Although I'm all for visual inspections. The HK 416 system does stay damn clean. After shooting over 1000 rounds in two days in a carbine class I was amazed how clean the internals were. Bolt carrier fouling was non existent. Hardly any fouling on the bolt (wiped right off with a rag) and just minor fouling in the chamber.

I'd inspect it and brake it apart occasionally but barring dirt or visible shavings near it that caught my eye I wouldn't overly worry about it.

 

[AGR416]

@M995:

I am aware of the differences between a "DI" gun and the short stroke piston design of the HK416, so no need to explain it to me.

No one is arguing the net effect of having the gas tube replaced by an op-rod, ie less fouling inside the upper reciever and the barrel extention. The point still stands that both systems have a piston, and they serve the same purpose, albeit in a different location; they form a seal so the gas can expand and push against operating parts; in the M16FOW the gas pushes against the carrier and starts moving it, in the HK416 the gas pushes against the piston itself, which in turn pushes the op rod.

 

[AGR416]

As to the OPs question, the only pins that need replacing when removed are roll pins, as they lose spring tension when removed.

I remove and clean the extractor and extractor recess approximatly every 3 months. I might remove it and clean it sooner, if I have fired a lot of rounds in a short time period.

 

[M995]

@M995:

I am aware of the differences between a "DI" gun and the short stroke piston design of the HK416, so no need to explain it to me.

No one is arguing the net effect of having the gas tube replaced by an op-rod, ie less fouling inside the upper reciever and the barrel extention. The point still stands that both systems have a piston, and they serve the same purpose, albeit in a different location; they form a seal so the gas can expand and push against operating parts; in the M16FOW the gas pushes against the carrier and starts moving it, in the HK416 the gas pushes against the piston itself, which in turn pushes the op rod.

Don't worry I know you understand the differences between the HK416 and M4/C8 and the point of my previous post was not to explain the differences of DI and tappet systems. My point was that most people who say "piston" are referring to those with an external piston rather than DI/internal pistons. I think when people say the HK416 has a piston and that's the reason it's easier to clean, they mean it has an external piston with op rod or pusher rod and thus less fouling is directed into the upper receiver and bolt group.

 

[Grumpy]

I'm just going to call it a "modified gas trap" from now on. Screw this splitting hairs and playing the name game crap.

 

[AGR416]

I was not referring to the common name for the system, I was commenting on G3Kurz statment that the cleanliness of the system is due to the gas piston, which is technically incorrect. That result is due to the oprod instead of a gas tube.

 

[G3Kurz]

From what I heard, the M16 FOW could be referred to as an internal piston b/c the bolt acts as the piston and has a piston head. I think the point that G3 kurz was trying to make by saying that the HK416 has a piston was that "external piston" designs like the HK416 (with piston cup and pusher rod) introduce far less fouling into the bolt carrier group while "internal piston" designs like the DI AR-15 introduce more fouling into the internals like the bolt carrier group. I think when most people mention "piston guns," they are aware that the M16 has a piston (I don't think anyone is arguing that the M16 doesn't have a piston) and what they generally mean by "piston guns" are "external piston systems" (like a piston and op rod assembly or a piston cup and pusher rod in the case of HK's gas operated guns)

AGR and Grumpy are up to their games again M995. I don't play them and I don't respond to their posts. If folks want to clean under their extractors go right ahead. Many folks do so with their HK roller-locked guns and need not and damage the extractor springs as a result which effects function. How many folks here have fired 10,000 and 20,000 rounds through an HK rifle in endurance tests? I have on many occassions with HK21E's, HK53's, MP5's, USP's, and HK416's and not once did I/we remove the extractor and clean under it - not once - and there were no stoppages as a result even though there was some fouling or brass shavings underneath after the test as completed. Do it if you want - I don't care one bit but don't tell others it is necessary when it is not.

I purchased my first AR15 at age 15 so I indeed know the difference between a "piston" in the classic American sense and a bolt head with gas rings on it. Any intelligent person would know what I was referring to in my brief post above. Give it a rest.

G3Kurz

 

[Phil Flack]

I was not referring to the common name for the system, I was commenting on G3Kurz statment that the cleanliness of the system is due to the gas piston, which is technically incorrect. That result is due to the oprod instead of a gas tube.

Skip that step - unnecessary as is removing the extractor for each cleaning.
We fired HK416's to 20,000 rounds without ever removing the extractor for cleaning, even during desert testing.
This is one big reasons why the HK416 has an op rod versus gas tube - reduced fouling, less cleaning!
G3Kurz

AGR, I must have missed something, where exactly does G3Kurz make even a reference to the piston? His reference is to the OP-ROD opposed to a gas tube that goes into the bolt carrier group. A solid rod transferring energy to unlock the bolt opposed to a dirty old gas tube. Which, by the way, has very little effect on carbon build up under the extractor.

However, I do agree with you that pushing the pin out and a quick brush under the extractor and bolt cannot hurt anything. Like you, I usually do this too, but not every three months...especially if I have not actually fired the weapon.

Now, as to the original post: replace each time it is removed. I'm calling BS on that, it is a hardened pin, not harmed at all by pushing it out....note: pushing it out as opposed to driving it out, as one would do to a roll pin! This is HK trying to sell LE agencies spare parts!! First time I went to the MP5 Armorer's course, we were told to put the weapon together basically DRY! That went against everything I knew and understood about weapons (or machinery in general for that matter) especially in the humid south. But, break it down, who is telling me to do this? What is their purpose in life, what do the sell? SPARE PARTS!!

Now the roll pins are a different story, they should be replaced, that is a standard in all industry.

Anyway...FIDO

 

[AGR416]

If I have not fired the gun, I will not remove and clean it either.

The three month thing was a routine we started with both the AGR and the extractor, before quarterly inspections. The AGR was the main reason, seeing as HK reccommended cleaning it every 1200-1400 rounds.


We also shoot way more blanks (red plastic ones) than live fire, and that ammo causes way more fouling than live rounds, when we use a BFA.

I know that fouling under the extractor is not from gas redirected from the tube. The claim was that the gun was cleaner overall because of the piston.

And G3Kurz' comment about the piston, that I commented on, has been edited by him after I commented.

@G3Kurz

I do not argue that the gun performs well during endurance tests and such. In my opinion however, every step we take to make sure our troops guns work every single time is not unneccessary, even though it might not be "needed".

That is why we have regular inspections by armorers, why we inspect weapons maintenance after being on the range, during PCC's and PCI's. It's not a knock on the weapon, it is leadership.

I also feel that it is a shame that you choose to ignore other posters, and resort to namecalling, just because I disagreed with you in one thread.

And not once did I argue in this thread that you absolutely need to clean the extractor and extractor recess.

 

[AGR416]

A little anecdote to perhaps explain why I have my guys follow a strict maintenance regime:

One unit in the norwegian military absolutely hates the HK416. They hate it because they experienced several malfunctions during a very heavy TIC in Afghanistan, the most prevalent was short stroking, or failure to cycle. They took casualties during the TIC, with two cat A patients who barely made it.

During the investigation, by a commission sent down to identify lessons learned, members of this unit suggested that the HK416 is not suited for combat and that they now had zero trust in the weapon. The chief of the Army was tasked with identifying wether or not the Army should continue using the HK416, or if the Army should lead a service wide initiative to replace it all together.

Now, it of course never came to that, as there are several other units who absolutely love the gun. We are in fact purchasing new weapons. Still, what was discovered during the investigation was that the unit in question had very lax maintenance standards, a factor that greatly contributed to the malfunctions they experienced that day. The guns had never been cleaned, and had insufficient amounts of lube.

This incident happened after I came home from Afghanistan, so it did not influence the standard I follow. It did, however, reinforce my belief that the user must do every step neccessary to ensure reliable function when he rolls out of the gate.

 

[Grumpy]

AGR and Grumpy are up to their games again M995. I don't play them and I don't respond to their posts.

Cute. I believe that someone telling people to incorrectly maintinence their weapons goes far beyond "game playing" into outright incompetency and shows a distinct lack of real world experience. Since I know you're not incompetent, what does that say?

So tell us, what is the HK reccomended cleaning schedule that they put in their manuals that are used by nations or Mil units that issue 416s? Do they also say to neglect maintinence on key components of the weapon?

Just askin'.....

If folks want to clean under their extractors go right ahead. Many folks do so with their HK roller-locked guns and need not and damage the extractor springs as a result which effects function.

Apples to oranges. You're smarter then that.

How many folks here have fired 10,000 and 20,000 rounds through an HK rifle in endurance tests? I have on many occassions with HK21E's, HK53's, MP5's, USP's, and HK416's and not once did I/we remove the extractor and clean under it - not once - and there were no stoppages as a result even though there was some fouling or brass shavings underneath after the test as completed. Do it if you want - I don't care one bit but don't tell others it is necessary when it is not.

Life is nice on the square range.

I purchased my first AR15 at age 15 so I indeed know the difference between a "piston" in the classic American sense and a bolt head with gas rings on it. Any intelligent person would know what I was referring to in my brief post above. Give it a rest.G3Kurz

This part I agree with. My comment about the "modified gas trap" wasn't meant to be a "game" withanybody, it was more of me venting frustration that this conversation still takes place at all. We all know about the pistons and the only difference being location on the gun, so why have this conversation.....again.

 

[Grumpy]

It did, however, reinforce my belief that the user must do every step neccessary to ensure reliable function when he rolls out of the gate.

And there it is.

From the mouth(fingers) of a real-world, BTDT, end user.

/conversation.